Cont: Baldwin fatally shoots crewmember on set of movie with prop gun (2)

[acbytesla]

Eliminate Human Error eliminate the problem, that's what a senor and Animation would do, scan a whole box of Dummy rounds without even opening the box. Scan every box before bringing it on set no exceptions.

I'm skeptical of technological solutions. The cost, as well as it still requires a human element. We're still dependent on someone checking it.

I'm going to trust the industry to solve its own problems. This was a tragic fluke accident. The industry has financial incentives for a safety conscious set. If buying and using some kind of sniffer or x-ray device makes economic sense, then fine.

 

[Thermal]

Eliminate Human Error eliminate the problem, that's what a senor and Animation would do, scan a whole box of Dummy rounds without even opening the box. Scan every box before bringing it on set no exceptions.

But what if Joe Swanson put a sensor in a live round? I have it on good authority that he is prone to occasional psychotic episodes.

More to the point, what if he also put instant coffee and perhaps some frothed milk and then Keanu accidentally shoots a cappuccino at Jackie Chan? He might be lactose intolerant and get flatulent all over the set.

 

[Thermal]

Yes, every gadget suggested by anyone here is already in use, plus others not suggested by anyone here. Moulded lumps of plastic are used for background artists and stunt artists. The mechanical dummy, capable of recoil and case ejection is a component of the VFX solution to gunfire, similar to using BB guns. I believe the John Wick movies use such things exclusively.

But read my post above. Real guns aren't going to be eliminated overnight with a single technique because the problem isn't in front of the camera. It's the behind-the-scenes economics of supplying the entire industry's unpredictable needs using a small pool of custom gadgets, when there's ready access to factories full of the real thing.

This is getting addressed by an increasing unwillingness to have real or blank-firing guns, and increasing VFX accessibility. But complete elimination is very likely never going to happen without a ban and I'm not sure the industry yet feels the need of a ban and I don't think the unions are calling for it either.

I don't think critics here are trying to reinvent the movie making wheel. Some of us are just incredulous that such a dangerous option would be chosen when the solutions are readily available.

On Rust, the gun was a colt 45. Probably the most common gun used in old westerns. You can score museum quality non firing replicas for $50-75 on Amazon right now. Since the rental budget alone on this movie was $17,500 (that's just rental, not ammo or armourer etc), it would likely be a savings. No supply problem. So why are live guns used at all in this movie? Firing blanks. That's it. And that's not an elaborate and expensive CGI to add in post.

We are not arguing "the industry should do this or that". We are pointing out that any argument in favor of live weapons on set seems to contradict itself.

Oh, and to acbytesla: you think there are no other uses for replica guns besides movie making? I've ordered replica guns myself for display in man cave remodels more than a few times. People use non firing guns for practice and training and artwork. The reason they are so cheap on Amazon is that they flipping sell.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

But what if Joe Swanson put a sensor in a live round? I have it on good authority that he is prone to occasional psychotic episodes.

More to the point, what if he also put instant coffee and perhaps some frothed milk and then Keanu accidentally shoots a cappuccino at Jackie Chan? He might be lactose intolerant and get flatulent all over the set.

That's why Joe Swanson wouldn't be using the technology he has no patent to it, and he intentionally made his Rounds less safe, by switching from a Copper BB, to one No2 lead shot, even a piece of Lead inside the bullet from an Automated Manufacturing mistake could have duplicated the shoft rattle of one of Joe Swanson's rounds.
The whole point in having a round rattle is to prevent a live round from getting in a gun, softening the Rattle of the Dummy round makes it more likely that a Live round can mimic a dummy round by accident.
Joe Swanson made his rounds less safe than the older BB rounds.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

I don't think critics here are trying to reinvent the movie making wheel. Some of us are just incredulous that such a dangerous option would be chosen when the solutions are readily available.

On Rust, the gun was a colt 45. Probably the most common gun used in old westerns. You can score museum quality non firing replicas for $50-75 on Amazon right now. Since the rental budget alone on this movie was $17,500 (that's just rental, not ammo or armourer etc), it would likely be a savings. No supply problem. So why are live guns used at all in this movie? Firing blanks. That's it. And that's not an elaborate and expensive CGI to add in post.

We are not arguing "the industry should do this or that". We are pointing out that any argument in favor of live weapons on set seems to contradict itself.

Oh, and to acbytesla: you think there are no other uses for replica guns besides movie making? I've ordered replica guns myself for display in man cave remodels more than a few times. People use non firing guns for practice and training and artwork. The reason they are so cheap on Amazon is that they flipping sell.

The smoke effect of black powder is hard to duplicate in CGI and expensive.

 

[theprestige]

The smoke effect of black powder is hard to duplicate in CGI and expensive.

Moviegoers don't care about the smoke effect of black powder.

 

[Thermal]

That's why Joe Swanson wouldn't be using the technology he has no patent to it, and he intentionally made his Rounds less safe, by switching from a Copper BB, to one No2 lead shot, even a piece of Lead inside the bullet from an Automated Manufacturing mistake could have duplicated the shoft rattle of one of Joe Swanson's rounds.

Readers here are assured that the only reason real guns are used is that it's cheap and easy. Your proposal makes it more expensive and therefore fails on the most basic premise. Plastic dummies, by comparison, would be cheaper and never capable of firing.

The whole point in having a round rattle is to prevent a live round from getting in a gun, softening the Rattle of the Dummy round makes it more likely that a Live round can mimic a dummy round by accident.
Joe Swanson made his rounds less safe than the older BB rounds.

No he didn't. He delivered what was requested by movie makers who didn't like the stray sounds of rattling. The directors and producers etc chose increased risk (taken by others, of course) over worker safety.

If someone makes anything, a knife or hammer or baseball bat, they have to assume due diligence will be used in its safe handling. It's not the manufacturers fault when boneheads get reckless with them.

You want safe dummy rounds? Easy peasy. Load them in a live gun and have the producers put the gun to their own heads and pull the trigger. I'll bet you the safety standards get real serious real quick, no matter the cost.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Because that's functionally a lot harder then just not bringing modified guns on set for no purpose and for no reason.

Again having modified actual fire arms that can fire real bullets if someone makes a mistake is not something we have to balance against because THERE IS NO UPSIDE.

Muzzle flashes and gunsmoke look dumb on film anyway, that negates any need to fire blanks to get those effects on screen. I mean just think of Robocop and how dumb that firing range seen looked. It would have been vastly better with a non firing replica and no muzzle flash.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I am also reminded how Lord of War used crates of real AK's because it was cheaper and easier than making hundreds of dummy guns to be in crates.

 

[JayUtah]

It may be instructive to remember that blanks in real guns came first. Or put differently, moviemaking didn't start out with inoperative guns and then move toward real guns and blank cartridges out of a newfound desire for impeccable realism. Safety achieved via a completely nonfunctioning prop in favor of visual effects later is the newcomer. Before that, safety was achieved by not being careless or stupid, which is admittedly inherently more risky.

Firing a gun has long been used for purposes other than hurling projectiles toward something you want to kill or destroy. They've been used, for example, as signalling devices since they were first invented, well into the 20th century. One early traffic law in the United States required the operator of a motor vehicle approaching an intersection to stop the car, dismount, and discharge a firearm to warn any nonmotorized vehicles that he was about to cross the road. The military still fires rifle and cannon salutes at funerals and other occasions where a certain form of respect or acknowledgement is traditional.

This is why blanks were invented. It was only natural that they came to be used for theatrical productions and later for movies. It was the original way to make smoke and noise safely appear to come from a firearm. On stage, we still have to use blank-firing guns because CGI is not an option. Sondheim's Assassins is still widely performed and requires a convincing weapon discharge seen and heard onstage. Oliver! still requires the Hussar to shoot Bill Sikes (oops, spoilers). The fact that we still can and must fake the discharge of a firearm in a provably and reliably safe manner for entertainment purposes means there is little excuse for people who choose blank-firing props over another option and then don't respect the safety protocols.

 

[Thermal]

... there is little excuse for people who choose blank-firing props over another option and then don't respect the safety protocols.

That's all most of us are arguing here. The crew at Rust didn't try to be safe and suffered an unforeseeable fluke of the fates. They just didn't care when it was time to care.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

That's all most of us are arguing here. The crew at Rust didn't try to be safe and suffered an unforeseeable fluke of the fates. They just didn't care when it was time to care.

No problem with that argument as long as it is made fairly, but the Court has a reasonable doubt standard, I have to look under that standard to the physics and science and determine if what they are saying could be true.

 

[theprestige]

I am also reminded how Lord of War used crates of real AK's because it was cheaper and easier than making hundreds of dummy guns to be in crates.

Counterpoint: Lord of War didn't uncrate hundreds of real AKs and hand them out to extras maybe or maybe not with live rounds in them, to pop off with during filming.

 

[Thermal]

No problem with that argument as long as it is made fairly, but the Court has a reasonable doubt standard, I have to look under that standard to the physics and science and determine if what they are saying could be true.

Underline "reasonable". Reasonable doesn't mean anything you can cook up in your head for which there is not a shred of evidence

 

[acbytesla]

Underline "reasonable". Reasonable doesn't mean anything you can cook up in your head for which there is not a shred of evidence

No, it's not.

A reasonable doubt is a doubt based upon reason and common sense and is not based purely on speculation. It may arise from a careful and impartial consideration of all the evidence, or from lack of evidence.
https://www.ce9.uscourts.gov/jury-instructions/node/338

From my view, there is reasonable doubt that HGR was recklessly negligent.

If the standard was what is used in a civil case, (preponderance of evidence) then I feel there would be no choice, but to find her liable.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

No, it's not.



From my view, there is reasonable doubt that HGR was recklessly negligent.

If the standard was what is used in a civil case, (preponderance of evidence) then I feel there would be no choice, but to find her liable.

True but the standard is beyond a reasonable doubt, and the evidence confirms it is quite possible that Baldwin and HGR told the truth all along.

 

[acbytesla]

True but the standard is beyond a reasonable doubt, and the evidence confirms it is quite possible that Baldwin and HGR told the truth all along.

There's no but there.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Readers here are assured that the only reason real guns are used is that it's cheap and easy. Your proposal makes it more expensive and therefore fails on the most basic premise. Plastic dummies, by comparison, would be cheaper and never capable of firing.



(No he didn't. He delivered what was requested by movie makers who didn't like the stray sounds of rattling. The directors and producers etc chose increased risk (taken by others, of course) over worker safety.

If someone makes anything, a knife or hammer or baseball bat, they have to assume due diligence will be used in its safe handling. It's not the manufacturers fault when boneheads get reckless with them. )

You want safe dummy rounds? Easy peasy. Load them in a live gun and have the producers put the gun to their own heads and pull the trigger. I'll bet you the safety standards get real serious real quick, no matter the cost.

The ( ) part of your statement is just an Excuse, you can say Hannah had the right to walk away from the contract when you say Joe Swanson didn’t have control over what he manufactured. That is Illogical.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

There's no but there.

True the round had sufficient free space to have a rattle because it was loaded with a lite load of Double based smokeless powder.
The gun can fire if the trigger is Obstructed.
Joe Swanson decided to make his Dummy rounds less safe Hannah had to look for a soft Rattle rather than a loud rattle thus making it more likely a live round could mimic a dummy round.
The Prosecution hid evidence and was Lying to win in both cases.

 

[Thermal]

True the round had sufficient free space to have a rattle because it was loaded with a lite load of Double based smokeless powder.
The gun can fire if the trigger is Obstructed.
Joe Swanson decided to make his Dummy rounds less safe Hannah had to look for a soft Rattle rather than a loud rattle thus making it more likely a live round could mimic a dummy round.
The Prosecution hid evidence and was Lying to win in both cases.

From acbytesla's definition of reasonable doubt, posted above:

"A reasonable doubt is a doubt based upon reason and common sense and is not based purely on speculation.".

Your posits are based purely on speculation. They do not constitute reasonable doubt.

ETA: also, a quieter rattle would be more inclined to be heard as a false positive for being a live round, making the quieter rattles actually safer, if the Armorer is doing their job.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

From acbytesla's definition of reasonable doubt, posted above:

"A reasonable doubt is a doubt based upon reason and common sense and is not based purely on speculation.".

Your posits are based purely on speculation. They do not constitute reasonable doubt.

ETA: also, a quieter rattle would be more inclined to be heard as a false positive for being a live round, making the quieter rattles actually safer, if the Armorer is doing their job.

False a Quiter Rattle would be easier for a live round to mimic by accident.
You are relying on humans training them that a quieter rattle is OK means that any round that has a Vibration is safe, and that may not be true.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

From acbytesla's definition of reasonable doubt, posted above:

"A reasonable doubt is a doubt based upon reason and common sense and is not based purely on speculation.".

Your posits are based purely on speculation. They do not constitute reasonable doubt.

ETA: also, a quieter rattle would be more inclined to be heard as a false positive for being a live round, making the quieter rattles actually safer, if the Armorer is doing their job.

Actually I am basing everything on witness statements and the Physics involved in those statements.

 

[Thermal]

Actually I am basing everything on witness statements and the Physics involved in those statements.

No you are damn well not. You're taking witness statements that make no sense and inventing a made up explanation for how they could have happened, that even they arent claiming.

Making up explanations that have zero evidence is not reasonable doubt.

Eta: there are no Magic Rattling live loads. There are no ninjas sticking leather to wedge a trigger, or fouled guns mixed with sand that miraculously clean themselves and are undetectable. None of this **** exists.

Eta2: CC, I luv ya babe, but you keep piling one crazy thing on the next to make these people look innocent, for no reason ar all. They demonstrably were careless with guns and ammo on set. There's really no reason to look for wild speculation when the simple, observable answer suffices: they were careless ******** with guns.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

No you are damn well not. You're taking witness statements that make no sense and inventing a made up explanation for how they could have happened, that even they arent claiming.

.asking up explanations that have zero evidence is not reasonable doubt.

False, it is possible that Alex Baldwin didn't pull the trigger because the Guns Trigger could have been Obstructed, it is not his fault the FBI destroyed evidence in a useless test.

Second because the Live Round in Question via the FBI report only had a limited amount of Smokeless powder and no wading, unlike a simular black powder round, there was ample space to provide a vibration in that round, as free space, and Contaminants would cause such a vibration.

If the Round had Been a black powder loaded 45LC Round it would have been impossible for it to Rattle.


If you have evidence that proves the trigger had to be pulled, or that the friction marks on the sear are from something other than a trigger Obstruction that isn't just contrived theory, present it?

If you have evidence that the round didn't rattle then present it?

If you don't reasonable doubt goes to the person who was there making the claim, because it was unlikely they knew the Bullet and the gun had those physical properties that allowed their statements to be true.

 

[Thermal]

False, it is possible that Alex Baldwin didn't pull the trigger because the Guns Trigger could have been Obstructed, it is not his fault the FBI destroyed evidence in a useless test.

It's possible that Flavor Flav was sucking on the casings and a diamond from his grill fell into the casing, causing it to rattle. But barring any actual evidence of this happening, it is summarily dismissed as an explanatiin. .

Second because the Live Round in Question via the FBI report only had a limited amount of Smokeless powder and no wading, unlike a simular black powder round, there was ample space to provide a vibration in that round, as free space, and Contaminants would cause such a vibration.

Zero evidence. Dismissed.

If the Round had Been a black powder loaded 45LC Round it would have been impossible for it to Rattle.


If you have evidence that proves the trigger had to be pulled, or that the friction marks on the sear are from something other than a trigger Obstruction that isn't just contrived theory, present it?

Single action revolvers are fired by pulling the hammer to full cock and pulling the trigger. The evidence is that that is exactly what happened here, and Baldwin is mistaken in believing he didnt. There is no evidence of any other explanation.

If you have evidence that the round didn't rattle then present it?

A) request to prove a negative denied.
B) other live rounds were found on set that didn't rattle, so G-R wasn't checking them either. There is zero reason to assume the bullet was Magical, and very good reason to believe she simply hadn't checked it, like she hadn't checked the others.

If you don't reasonable doubt goes to the person who was there making the claim, because it was unlikely they knew the Bullet and the gun had those physical properties that allowed their statements to be true.

Reasonable doubt has not been presented. You have only presented wild unevidenced speculation. Presented without evidence, dismissed summarily.

Anything else you'd like to discuss?

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

It's possible that Flavor Flav was sucking on the casings and a diamond from his grill fell into the casing, causing it to rattle. But barring any actual evidence of this happening, it is summarily dismissed as an explanatiin. .



Zero evidence. Dismissed.



Single action revolvers are fired by pulling the hammer to full cock and pulling the trigger. The evidence is that that is exactly what happened here, and Baldwin is mistaken in believing he didnt. There is no evidence of any other explanation.



A) request to prove a negative denied.
B) other live rounds were found on set that didn't rattle, so G-R wasn't checking them either. There is zero reason to assume the bullet was Magical, and very good reason to believe she simply hadn't checked it, like she hadn't checked the others.



Reasonable doubt has not been presented. You have only presented wild unevidenced speculation. Presented without evidence, dismissed summarily.

Anything else you'd like to discuss?

The friction marks on the sear, appear to be from a possible material that was harder than the Steel of the sear, sand glued by black powder fowling could have Obstructed the weak trigger spring from returning the trigger forward into the hammer notches.

As for the Round if Hannah I telling the truth that the bullet rattled then contaminants are why it had the rattle.

https://youtu.be/4NoNDsrxD7g?si=1zv33NjmI3wODriY

 

[Thermal]

The friction marks on the sear, appear to be from a possible material that was harder than the Steel of the sear, sand glued by black powder fowling could have Obstructed the weak trigger spring from returning the trigger forward into the hammer notches.

As for the Round if Hannah I telling the truth that the bullet rattled then contaminants are why it had the rattle.

https://youtu.be/4NoNDsrxD7g?si=1zv33NjmI3wODriY

Yes, you keep saying that over and over. I got it the first hundred times.. It's speculation, and speculation does not constitute reasonable doubt.

Anything else you'd like to discuss?

 

[theprestige]

The friction marks on the sear, appear to be from a possible material that was harder than the Steel of the sear, sand glued by black powder fowling could have Obstructed the weak trigger spring from returning the trigger forward into the hammer notches.

As for the Round if Hannah I telling the truth that the bullet rattled then contaminants are why it had the rattle.

https://youtu.be/4NoNDsrxD7g?si=1zv33NjmI3wODriY

If the cartridge had so little powder as to enable a distinct rattle of some foreign object inside, how did the bullet get enough force to not only clear the barrel, but also punch all the way through Hutchins and lodge in Souza's shoulder? I don't think you can have it both ways: A full-power cartridge that does the deed, and a rattle-can cartridge that's probably more contaminant than powder.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Yes, you keep saying that over and over. I got it the first hundred times.. It's speculation, and speculation does not constitute reasonable doubt.

Anything else you'd like to discuss?

Why if it didn't go into reasonable doubt did Kari Morrissey hide it?

 

[Thermal]

Why if it didn't go into reasonable doubt did Kari Morrissey hide it?

Because she's a douche.

Something else?

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Because she's a douche.

Something else?

Yes she risked her Career, to Lie, and Jail Baldwin, just because none of this information was Important. Because she is a Douche.

 

[Thermal]

Yes she risked her Career, to Lie, and Jail Baldwin, just because none of this information was Important. Because she is a Douche.

Atta boy. See how easy?

She's arrogant, incompetent, whatever. But she doesn't subscribe to your zany theory.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Atta boy. See how easy?

She's arrogant, incompetent, whatever. But she doesn't subscribe to your zany theory.

No she lies and tries to debunk theories you say are Impossible.

 

[Thermal]

No she lies and tries to debunk theories you say are Impossible.

Not impossible. Just wildly speculative, unevidenced, and require boatloads of whacky assumptions that the competing theory (that these people were careless) doesn't require.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Not impossible. Just wildly speculative, unevidenced, and require boatloads of whacky assumptions that the competing theory (that these people were careless) doesn't require.

Actually it only requires a few Mistakes and people were careless either way.

There are simply a limited number of possibilities if the people involved are telling the truth. Knowing that the prosecution was lying and hiding evidence from day one, leads me to Question them more than the defendants,
Have you read the Judges Written order, the new Trials Motion, and Morrissey's response?

 

[Thermal]

Actually it only requires a few Mistakes and people were careless either way.

There are simply a limited number of possibilities if the people involved are telling the truth. Knowing that the prosecution was lying and hiding evidence from day one, leads me to Question them more than the defendants,
Have you read the Judges Written order, the new Trials Motion, and Morrissey's response?

And that's where we part ways. I believe the simplest and by far the most likely explanation is that they are not telling the truth, probably not intentionally. They simply don't remember accurately what they did or didn't do or heard a click or rattle. But they damn sure know they better say they do now.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

And that's where we part ways. I believe the simplest and by far the most likely explanation is that they are not telling the truth, probably not intentionally. They simply don't remember accurately what they did or didn't do or heard a click or rattle. But they damn sure know they better say they do now.

Yet physics says that what they described was possible.

 

[Thermal]

Yet physics says that what they described was possible.

Physics also says Flavor Flav could have been sucking on the casings and dropped a diamond from his grill in the Magic Rattling Bullet. We gonna take that seriously too, ducky?

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Physics also says Flavor Flav could have been sucking on the casings and dropped a diamond from his grill in the Magic Rattling Bullet. We gonna take that seriously too, ducky?

When did Flavor Flav have opportunity?

 

[Thermal]

When did Flavor Flav have opportunity?

The live rounds being discussed were found in a can of "miscellaneous" rounds. Flav had years and years of opportunity for his famed B&E bullet sucking endeavors.

But you're up first. Please describe Swanson's reloading equipment and the work area. Details, please, including model numbers and a layout. Then you need to show how shot had the opportunity to get into the powder during the reloading process undetected.

If you say "well I guess it just fell from the sky and no one noticed", then we can say the same of Flav.