Bad ideas in war

[Andy_Ross]

Partially the issues at Crete were down to poor Fallschirmjäger equipment, their equipment design meant that they didn't have proper small arms until after landing.

As I just posted. They couldn't carry any more than a pistol and a couple of grenades on them and had to find and secure their equipment pods after landing.

 

[theprestige]

Basically it's just hard to deliver enough equipment to properly sustain a light infantry assault by air. We've gotten better at it since Crete, but the problem remains.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Yes, if you are going to use airborne troops to take and hold ground you need to get to them on the ground very quickly.

 

[Wudang]

I have mates who served in 2 Para. They basically said their life expectancy was pretty short from when they landed which is why they were all trained to dial aggression up to 11.

 

[theprestige]

Sudden and unrelenting aggression can overcome a multitude of tactical disadvantages.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Sudden and unrelenting aggression can overcome a multitude of tactical disadvantages.

That's why the British Army are still trained to charge with bayonet. Like Corporal
Jones of the 1st Battalion, The Princess of Wales's Royal Regiment (1 PWRR), did when fighting the Taliban in 2007.

His patrol was getting pinned in a ditch by a crossfire from two directions so with two men giving covering fire he led the other 4 in a bayonet charge that routed the attackers.

As another, well known Corporal Jones was known to say "They don't like it up 'em"
Jones was awarded a Military Cross.

 

[HansMustermann]

Worse yet, the Germans would have to first look for where in Odin's name that equipment crate even landed first.

 

[steenkh]

In general Bill Slim’s book “Defeat into Victory”, he argues against the formation of elite troops. He said that picking the best men out form rangers, paratroopers, and so on, just lowered the quality of the rest of the troops, and they didn’t perform better than well-led regular troops. He even argued that anybody could learn to jump with parachutes, and that he had employed some regular troops in this role in Burma.

Unfortunately, I can’t locate my old paper copy of this book, so it is all quoted from memory.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Very true in certain respects.

Your 'elite' troops end up sitting round doing nothing waiting for a situation where their particular skills are needed or they get used as regular troops and are wasted. That's what happened to the German airborne units and also to the Russians in Ukreaine

 

[theprestige]

Very true in certain respects.

Your 'elite' troops end up sitting round doing nothing waiting for a situation where their particular skills are needed or they get used as regular troops and are wasted. That's what happened to the German airborne units and also to the Russians in Ukreaine

I don't think an 80 year-old case and a modern day Muscovite case are very comprehensive examples of this.

I think a two-tier army can work in some contexts. For example, if you can't afford to train and equip your entire fighting population to the same high standard. But you still have to use them effectively, and according to a sensible doctrine. The VDV and the 1GTA failed in Ukraine not because elite troops are a bad idea, but because Muscovite war planners are ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ stupid.

There is a place in warfare, both modern and ancient, for elite formations and specialist troops. A highly-mobile, well-trained and well-equipped quick reaction force is a good thing to have. But you use them as scouts and skirmishers, not as regular infantry. The Army Rangers are often mobilized as a security force for Delta operators. While the really special operators carry out the mission, the Rangers secure the LZ, etc. Regular infantry aren't as good at that kind of quick and effective raid on short notice.

The USMC has specialized fire control troops. These are highly trained operators who coordinate with allied units to provide effective fire support from USMC and USN assets. You can't just throw a grunt with a radio and a map in with a battalion of Bundeswehr regulars and expect him to perform anywhere near the necessary level of competence.

The USAF fields elite combat search and rescue troops, to recover pilots lost in combat zones. You can't just throw a bunch of grunts into a helicopter and expect them to be as successful as USAF Pararescue.

But yeah, in general, for land warfare, it's better to train and equip all your regular units to the same level if you can.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Russia has squandered it's 'elite' units by putting them in the trenches on the front line. The airborne, marines, arctic and mountain troops exist in name only, filled with conscripts.


Also there's a difference between job specialists and so called 'elite' units like airborne and marines infantry.