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Assassination of United Healthcare CEO

dann said:
Those damn greedy nurses! It's obvious that Mangione shot the wrong guy. :sdl:
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Obviously meant as bit tongue and cheek but it is true that the providers of care are the folks actually driving up costs. Doctors, hospitals, drugs, equipment, etc.
 
Dr.Sid said:
It certainly did. After fall of communism privatization was seen as the only way forward. And it worked in healthcare, it worked in utilities. All the companies which delayed privatization, especially railways, had big problems. Only when competition was allowed in the domain, the quality improved. Competition is the goal. Profit is how to get companies interested. Regulation is how to keep them in check.

But let's not get carried away (too much) .. all I'm saying we have cheap decent healthcare, which is based on regulated, but private insurance, with like 20 companies. Nobody goes bankrupt because he (or family member) got cancer. I can go to doctor any time and I pay nothing besides % of my earnings. The doctor doesn't like what he sees, sends me to CT and 3 blood tests .. I pay nothing. The doctor has to prescribe that though. I may pay something for the drugs, even for prescribed ones, but it's relatively cheap, and things like insulin are fully covered.

And IMHO US might even apply some existing legislature. The fact that pharma company gouges prices of insulin, and the insurance company agrees to pay for it, or that the prices are different for different clients .. there might be laws against that already.

Btw. are the healthcare rules same in the whole US ? When there is no perfect agreement on something .. the states usually add their own regulation. I don't think I've heard about anything like that as far as healthcare goes ..
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No. Let's get very carried away. These bandaid approaches which allows the wealthy to find workarounds to continue their parasitic drain on Americans and the economy needs to stop.

Where exactly do you live? Because none of that describes the US. Insulin prices when left up to corporate interests were insanely expensive. Biden forced the issue that brought down insulin prices. I would disagree with almost all of what you said. Healthcare in the US is not relatively cheap. It's grotesquely overpriced. We pay the twice the percentage of our income on healthcare than they do in Canada and almost all of Europe. And our life expectancy is lower. If it's so damn good, why is this?
 
acbytesla said:
No. Let's get very carried away. These bandaid approaches which allows the wealthy to find workarounds to continue their parasitic drain on Americans and the economy needs to stop.

Where exactly do you live? Because none of that describes the US. Insulin prices when left up to corporate interests were insanely expensive. Biden forced the issue that brought down insulin prices. I would disagree with almost all of what you said. Healthcare in the US is not relatively cheap. It's grotesquely overpriced. We pay the twice the percentage of our income on healthcare than they do in Canada and almost all of Europe. And our life expectancy is lower. If it's so damn good, why is this?
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Don't forget the capitalistic heroism of Martin Shkreli. He took medicines that were chronically undercoated and got their prices up to where the market dictated that they should.
 
ponderingturtle said:
Don't forget the capitalistic heroism of Martin Shkreli. He took medicines that were chronically undercoated and got their prices up to where the market dictated that they should.
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And Pharma Bro thought it was perfectly legitimate to jack up prices a thousand percent on a life saving drug.
 
acbytesla said:
That was weird. That was supposed to be in an email to someone else. Sorry.
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Please, no apologies. My phone was recently adding random lines of text from random other people into new texts I sent to others. You have no idea the cardiac arrest I was going through trying to figure out who got sent what.
 
ponderingturtle said:
Don't forget the capitalistic heroism of Martin Shkreli. He took medicines that were chronically undercoated and got their prices up to where the market dictated that they should.
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acbytesla said:
And Pharma Bro thought it was perfectly legitimate to jack up prices a thousand percent on a life saving drug.
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This one should have occurred to me much sooner in the thread:
There are many ways to kill
You can stab someone in the guts, take their bread away, not heal someone from disease, put someone in a bad living space, work someone to death, drive them to suicide, lead someone to war etc. Only few of these are prohibited in our state.
B.Brecht
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My guess it was simply me with too many windows open and not paying attention

But back to the ramifications of the murder of the Healthcare Insurance executive. Health Insurance is about collecting as much as possible in premiums and paying out as little as possible in claims and expenses. We are paying them to shuffle paper and little else. Oh and provide dividends to shareholders.
 
Dr.Sid said:
IMHO you absolutely need private insurance. State just can't run businesses, period. Tough experience of 40 years of "communism".
You want private companies. But it has to be regulated. Here the state regulates how much you pay (it's fixed, for every payer, for every insurance company), what things cost, including pharmaceuticals, and what must be covered. The insurance companies themselves are private though, and there is still room for profit and competition. The differences are in optional things covered, mainly different preventive programs and wellness .. for no extra cost, just for the fact you have chosen the company.
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I beleive in Universal Health Care, not so sure the Singer payer idea is the best way to go about it.
 
acbytesla said:
No. Let's get very carried away. These bandaid approaches which allows the wealthy to find workarounds to continue their parasitic drain on Americans and the economy needs to stop.

Where exactly do you live? Because none of that describes the US. Insulin prices when left up to corporate interests were insanely expensive. Biden forced the issue that brought down insulin prices. I would disagree with almost all of what you said. Healthcare in the US is not relatively cheap. It's grotesquely overpriced. We pay the twice the percentage of our income on healthcare than they do in Canada and almost all of Europe. And our life expectancy is lower. If it's so damn good, why is this?
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Dude, look at Dr. Sid's location.
 
I just have to repeat, approve violence just be prepared for the consquences.
Start this kind of thing, you can't stop it easily.
 
acbytesla said:
My guess it was simply me with too many windows open and not paying attention

But back to the ramifications of the murder of the Healthcare Insurance executive. Health Insurance is about collecting as much as possible in premiums and paying out as little as possible in claims and expenses. We are paying them to shuffle paper and little else. Oh and provide dividends to shareholders.
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But without paying the sort of manageable monthly premium and having them.cover the bill, where would we be? Having a $30k bill dropped in our laps for a broken arm?

They lose multiple times what they get payed from my wife's plan on her various medical stuff. We'd have been bankrupt and lost our home years ago if we had to foot the bill in cash.
 
Is there a film where a guy is being dragged away by police while screaming and hollering, then when the protagonist gets close the screamer looks at him directly and calmly says something like “you’ll remember me right?” The protagonist nods and then the screaming and hollering resumes as the cops take him away….?
 
Between the choices of private companies running the coverage, and the federal government running it, I mean... would we really expect government to be more efficient? Is that how they typically roll?
 
Thermal said:
But without paying the sort of manageable monthly premium and having them.cover the bill, where would we be? Having a $30k bill dropped in our laps for a broken arm?

They lose multiple times what they get payed from my wife's plan on her various medical stuff. We'd have been bankrupt and lost our home years ago if we had to foot the bill in cash.
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they're making billions. after paying out exorbitant salaries to executives and the salaries of entire departments used to deny and fight against claims
ahhell said:
Obviously meant as bit tongue and cheek but it is true that the providers of care are the folks actually driving up costs. Doctors, hospitals, drugs, equipment, etc.
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any particular reason why insurance companies aren't spending more time and energy on negotiating prices with doctors, hospitals, equipment, and pharma companies to keep costs down instead of simply shrugging their shoulders instead of simply passing along the costs to their customers? shouldn't somebody be on patients sides here? then what the hell are we paying them for? they seem to be adding a layer of extra cost and doing nothing for you.
 
Thermal said:
Between the choices of private companies running the coverage, and the federal government running it, I mean... would we really expect government to be more efficient? Is that how they typically roll?
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they really don't need to be too much more efficient. insurance companies are skimming billions in profits, they could be way less efficient and still come out way cheaper

-edit-

i mean, every other government in the world does it cheaper and with better outcomes than private insurers in the us do to some degree and there's some really ◊◊◊◊◊◊ governments out there
 
dirtywick said:
they're making billions. after paying out exorbitant salaries to executives and the salaries of entire departments used to deny and fight against claims
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They're in a game of freaking multiple trillions though, man. Their profit range, from what I've read, is in the single percents. If they dropped premium prices by 5%, they be bankrupt immediately. Yes, the raw numbers seem huge, but as I understand it, there's really not a whole lot of wiggle room.
 
dirtywick said:
they really don't need to be too much more efficient. insurance companies are skimming billions in profits, they could be way less efficient and still come out way cheaper

-edit-

i mean, every other government in the world does it cheaper and with better outcomes than private insurers in the us do to some degree and there's some really ◊◊◊◊◊◊ governments out there
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US doctors get paid a heaping helping more.
 
dirtywick said:
they're making billions. after paying out exorbitant salaries to executives and the salaries of entire departments used to deny and fight against claims

any particular reason why insurance companies aren't spending more time and energy on negotiating prices with doctors, hospitals, equipment, and pharma companies to keep costs down instead of simply shrugging their shoulders instead of simply passing along the costs to their customers? shouldn't somebody be on patients sides here? then what the hell are we paying them for? they seem to be adding a layer of extra cost and doing nothing for you.
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they try, there was a big story about an insurance company trying to do exactly that with anesthesiologist and the doctors won the PR battle with a press statement about evil insurance companies limiting anesthesia. The providers have better PR.
 
Thermal said:
They're in a game of freaking multiple trillions though, man. Their profit range, from what I've read, is in the single percents. If they dropped premium prices by 5%, they be bankrupt immediately. Yes, the raw numbers seem huge, but as I understand it, there's really not a whole lot of wiggle room.
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why does that mean the people managing it get to make so much money and the billions that go to shareholders? they can’t figure out a way to spend the money on saving lives of their customers? raw numbers don’t seem huge, they are huge and they have tens of billions in wiggle room every year. and it can go into a fund to cover more healthcare costs instead of peoples pockets. i think it’s exactly that easy and the kind of greed it takes to be entitled to that much money in that industry, it’s unfathomable to me.
 
angrysoba said:
Is there a film where a guy is being dragged away by police while screaming and hollering, then when the protagonist gets close the screamer looks at him directly and calmly says something like “you’ll remember me right?” The protagonist nods and then the screaming and hollering resumes as the cops take him away….?
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This segment from Falling Down, maybe (really starts at about 1 minute in)?

 
Going back to the dentist today for a broken crown I thought -- great we got all that worked out earlier in the year for another issue, I've paid my deductible already, and I should be covered well.

They'd already taken the tooth impression and the insurance coordinator comes in and says "They say you don't have an account." Same ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ thing they tried earlier this year, and I god damn well have an account. Now I have to wait maybe a few more weeks for the paperwork to go through, again, and it will probably go into next year when I have to start with the deductible again. So I can understand ire with insurance companies.
 
ok, so you get sick or have a health issue and you go to the hospital, where they basically won't even see you without insurance unless you're actively dying, where you have no idea what they'll charge until a month later and they'll do whatever, maybe help maybe not, and you'll go home. you have your insurance through your job, where you paying for your insurance is basically already factored into your pay whether you take it or not, and they will take a little more from you if you do take it and where they find the cheapest crap they can find. you can't afford private insurance unless you're retired or disabled and the government pays for most of it.

not only will an insurance company do nothing to make any of that better, they just pay whatever the hospital says and will do nothing to keep your costs down, and they'll do whatever they can to not pay for your treatment, and you have to pay thousands of out pocket every year to the hospital too that resets every year regardless if your health issue is solved or not. and they'll charge you whatever they want because you have no choice, you have to have it. and because everyone in the country has to have it, they are gigantic companies.

and that's why they deserve billions of dollars in profits.
 
angrysoba said:
Is there a film where a guy is being dragged away by police while screaming and hollering, then when the protagonist gets close the screamer looks at him directly and calmly says something like “you’ll remember me right?” The protagonist nods and then the screaming and hollering resumes as the cops take him away….?
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"Soylent Green is people!"
 
and you know, the government could just say "we are not going to pay that, we are going to pay this" and at least somebody would be on the patients side. but nobody, not the insurance companies, hospitals, pharma, none of them want that. wonder why
 
What isn't being discussed is the negative effect of high health insurance costs have on American businesses and the US economy. We are surrendering jobs to overseas companies because of the disaster which is the US health-care system.
 
oh, another horrible situation for normal people stemming from how bad healthcare is, how about that

edit

we can get into how university administrators and executives of lenders all deserve their billions in profits too because they're the grease that keeps the wheels turning
 
dirtywick said:
shouldn’t insurance companies be negotiating with providers to keep costs down? they’re the ones almost completely sustaining the pay of the doctors.
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The doctors basically say "nah". Or more realistically (looking at my wife's statements), they triple their billing, then refuse to come down anymore when they knock off 25% as a good faith bargaining gesture, saying theyve given their fair allowance already

I posted upthread one of my wife's coverage summaries. The doc billed for multiple consultations at over $800 per, in addition tobthe office visit charges and all the routine stuff. He didn't do anything but talk to me wife for about 10 minutes. How do you bill for 6 consultations when you talk to a patient for 10 mins?

The insurers are no angels. But from what I'm looking at, they are often paying out absurd redundant charges, and paying them with no argument. This is more complex than the bad old insurance people pulling too much
 
Thermal said:
The doctors basically say "nah". Or more realistically (looking at my wife's statements), they triple their billing, then refuse to come down anymore when they knock off 25% as a good faith bargaining gesture, saying theyve given their fair allowance already

I posted upthread one of my wife's coverage summaries. The doc billed for multiple consultations at over $800 per, in addition tobthe office visit charges and all the routine stuff. He didn't do anything but talk to me wife for about 10 minutes. How do you bill for 6 consultations when you talk to a patient for 10 mins?

The insurers are no angels. But from what I'm looking at, they are often paying out absurd redundant charges, and paying them with no argument. This is more complex than the bad old insurance people pulling too much
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that's your money they're pissing away on paying out the triple charging after taking their cut and making billions doing it. they charge a lot because they don't care and you'll pay no matter what, it's a bad service. idk why you seem to be on their side like they're doing a good job. they should be setting prices on your behalf and keeping costs down to you, as the customer. not just paying out whatever with no questions, that's insane.
 
dirtywick said:
...idk why you seem to be on their side like they're doing a good job...
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You're not hearing me. I've said the whole system is a freaking train wreck. But who is the worse offender:

The insurance company who has to balance premiums versus basically a blank check to doctors and hospitals, or

The doctors and hospitals who say they can treat you if you have the cash, but if you don't, then hit the road. And they really like a lot of cash.

It ain't just the insurance guys, man.
 
Thermal said:
Which is a pittance compared to their malpractice insurance. But I have quite a few customers who are medical doctors. Trust me, they ain't hurting for bags of cash.
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Maybe, but it does mean there's tremendous pressure on GP's to specialise and make more money, and the US system doesn't have enough GP's as it is leading to more expensive healthcare.

My wife and I are on a bronze plan for which we pay nearly $1800 a month which routinely denies all claims and has a $10,000 deductible besides. It's a disaster in my book.
 
Thermal said:
You're not hearing me. I've said the whole system is a freaking train wreck. But who is the worse offender:

The insurance company who has to balance premiums versus basically a blank check to doctors and hospitals, or

The doctors and hospitals who say they can treat you if you have the cash, but I'd you don't, then hit the road. And they really like a lot of cash.

It ain't just the insurance guys, man.
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you understand the reason why the hospitals charge so much is because insurance companies pay it. that's basically their sole source of income. they don't care because you pay them, they take a cut, and pay what the hospitals want. and you have no choice. and they don't need people without insurance, you're irrelevant to them.

so yeah, it's just the insurance guys.
 
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