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Assassination of United Healthcare CEO

plague311 said:
Whoever is making that shirt is more than likely just scamming people anyway. That has to be a trademark infringement of some sort.
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Agreed, but if you are fast, you can make a small pile of loot before you get and have to act on the cease and desist letter from Nintendo, and if you set up as a straw LLC, you vanish in a trail of paper with your few grand or whatever. It's a shirt for $22 that probably costs a buck or two to make, if you have the screen setup.
 
Yes, engaging in insider trading is an indicator of corrupt intent. It's a crime that is prosecuted, and not every company officer engages in it.

A major employer in my area is the technology arm of UHC: the code wonks who actually make stuff happen in the company. Among the veterans of that employer that I know either personally or professionally, there is the distinct feeling that it is an evil company that is pretty much focused almost exclusively on profits. They apparently expend huge effort on automatic technological means for denying claims under the guise of "fraud protection." Yes, this is all hearsay from possibly disgruntled ex-employees. But when I ask them the obvious question why they worked there, the answers are along the liens of "holding one's nose and pretending you're still somehow doing a good thing."
 
plague311 said:
You honestly could have just summed this up by saying "Everyone does it so it's fine".

He was being investigated for insider trading. You can handwave that away in whatever way you'd like but it's still a crime.
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Being investigated is not the same as being charged. It just means somebody lodged a complaint into what on the face of it looks like it could be insider trading.

As for 'everybody does it': the shareholders get the annual statements and that is their opportunity to peruse them and raise objections at the stated practices. I don't know how the health insurance companies are regulated in the USA but that is surely another area to issue an objection. Look, I can see from this side of the world how awful the US system is and how it causes tremendous stress to the extent it is not unusual for more than one generation to live in the same household because people are strapped by huge bills that makes it hard for them to change jobs or seek needed medical care. Yes, UHC is relentlessly unscrupulous in its deny delay and depose policies increasing year on year. I get it.
 
Well .. even with how bad health insurance in US is, it's still better than no health insurance at all. UHC denied 30% of the claims (so I hear), that's still 70% which they did not deny. Also lot of sad stories about denied care are really rare conditions with experimental treatment, they wouldn't be covered anywhere in the world. Every insurance company will have a red line it won't go beyond. Every insurance company would optimize what is necessary and what not. Every insurance company has cold hard number of how many other people can be helped for denying this one specific treatment to small kid.
The margins, the price gouging, and inhumane approach are the problem.
 
Dr.Sid said:
Well .. even with how bad health insurance in US is, it's still better than no health insurance at all. UHC denied 30% of the claims (so I hear), that's still 70% which they did not deny. Also lot of sad stories about denied care are really rare conditions with experimental treatment, they wouldn't be covered anywhere in the world. Every insurance company will have a red line it won't go beyond. Every insurance company would optimize what is necessary and what not. Every insurance company has cold hard number of how many other people can be helped for denying this one specific treatment to small kid.
The margins, the price gouging, and inhumane approach are the problem.
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I mentioned this at the beginning of the thread. The insurer is overly held accountable here. It's not entirely reasonable to say "well I paid my $1000/mo in premiums so now I expect *spreads arms widely* infinite coverage for anything conceivable that might happen to me.

The hospitals and doctors are in this game, too. "Sure, we can save you life... if you got the cash. Otherwise, security will see you back to the street."

The whole thing is a train wreck and feeding frenzy. It ain't just Brian Thompson.
 
The argument for both sid and thermal and vixen would hold more water if they weren't denying coverage at a higher clip than every other health insurance company in the US. When all else fails compare them to their peers. Even in an industry that does everything possible to bleed as much money out of it's "clients" as possible, this company was significantly worse than all of the rest of them.

I'm not in the mood to hear excuse making for healthcare companies and CEOs. He was worse than all the others and now he's in the ground.
 
plague311 said:
The argument for both sid and thermal and vixen would hold more water if they weren't denying coverage at a higher clip than every other health insurance company in the US. When all else fails compare them to their peers. Even in an industry that does everything possible to bleed as much money out of it's "clients" as possible, this company was significantly worse than all of the rest of them.

I'm not in the mood to hear excuse making for healthcare companies and CEOs. He was worse than all the others and now he's in the ground.
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Oh, no argument, United does seem to be the worst. But people kind of like a single face to hate, and sometimes shoot in cold blood. The problem was a lot bigger than him. Andrew Witty does not exactly have a halo hanging over his head. Nor does the smallest shareholder. I'm not exactly wearing black in mourning for Brian. He worked to put bodies in bags, intentionally or not.
 
Thermal said:
Oh, no argument, United does seem to be the worst. But people kind of like a single face to hate, and sometimes shoot in cold blood. The problem was a lot bigger than him. Andrew Witty does not exactly have a halo hanging over his head. Nor does the smallest shareholder. I'm not exactly wearing black in mourning for Brian. He worked to put bodies in bags, intentionally or not.
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And I'd say it's pretty certain he did it intentionally. His rise among the ranks directly coincided with an increased in denied claims and subsequent increase in profit. If he's as good as some claim he is then there's no way he didn't know what he was doing.
 
Thermal said:
I mentioned this at the beginning of the thread. The insurer is overly held accountable here. It's not entirely reasonable to say "well I paid my $1000/mo in premiums so now I expect *spreads arms widely* infinite coverage for anything conceivable that might happen to me.

The hospitals and doctors are in this game, too. "Sure, we can save you life... if you got the cash. Otherwise, security will see you back to the street."

The whole thing is a train wreck and feeding frenzy. It ain't just Brian Thompson.
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I pin the majority of the blame on the lawmakers and regulators that have ceded their Constitutional reponsibility to Promote the General Welfare to the Invisible Hand Of The Market. Capitalism does not assume ethics. Yes everyone has the responsibility to examine their actions and purpose in accord with the morality they ascribe to. The perversion of Thompson et al to bow to the dollar at the cost of human life is an sick, malignant mutation in our society, and it is up to our legislators to put guardrails in place. A single payer option would be the obvious first step. But they also have been perverted to lust after political power by valuing the desires of their corporate overlords over the lives and health of their constituents.
 
Healthcare is a perfect example of the limitations and failure of depending entirely on market capitalism to address every economic issue. . Adam Smith said "in competition, individual ambition serves the common good." As well "as the best result happens when everyone in the group works for themselves." But this in fact isn't the truth, The existence of insurance itself demonstrates that this thinking is inherently flawed.

Private insurance just adds another layer of complexity and allow private interests to needlessly suck off the tit of productivity of the system.
 
Vixen said:
(...) The idea that PwC is corrupt because they had a few regulators sanctions (...)
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I think you should read this quotation from my post again:
PwC: Controversies (Wikipedia)
The firm has been embroiled in a number of corruption controversies and crime scandals. The firm has on multiple occasions been implicated in tax evasion and tax avoidance practices. The company has aided war criminals in evading sanctions. The company has frequently performed insufficient audits, whereby it performs auditing services that vouch for the finances of companies without following basic auditing standards.
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And when you have finished reading it, you should take a look at the loooong list of "corruption controversies and crime scandals" mentioned in the Wiki link.
 
Employee of Slain CEO Goes Public with BOMBSHELL Revelations (Occupy Democrats on YouTube, Dec 12, 2024 - 9:49 min.)
A long time employee of UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson just came forward with bombshell new revelations that shed a dark glimpse into the inner workings of UnitedHealthcare.
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It's a former employee, but it's an interesting story about what it was like to work at the UnitedHealthcare offices, how management treated its employees as well its customers.
It is a personal account of what she experienced, obviously, but I think she knows that she would be sued by the company if any of it isn't true.
I guess they may sue her anyway even if it is true.
 
I'll be so much happier if it turns out that the public support for Luigi is not directed at health insurers per se, but a global contempt for sociopathic corporations.
 
acbytesla said:
Healthcare is a perfect example of the limitations and failure of depending entirely on market capitalism to address every economic issue. . Adam Smith said "in competition, individual ambition serves the common good." As well "as the best result happens when everyone in the group works for themselves." But this in fact isn't the truth, The existence of insurance itself demonstrates that this thinking is inherently flawed.

Private insurance just adds another layer of complexity and allow private interests to needlessly suck off the tit of productivity of the system.
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IMHO you absolutely need private insurance. State just can't run businesses, period. Tough experience of 40 years of "communism".
You want private companies. But it has to be regulated. Here the state regulates how much you pay (it's fixed, for every payer, for every insurance company), what things cost, including pharmaceuticals, and what must be covered. The insurance companies themselves are private though, and there is still room for profit and competition. The differences are in optional things covered, mainly different preventive programs and wellness .. for no extra cost, just for the fact you have chosen the company.
 
Not sure if it was posted here yet, but Mangione's mother reported him as a missing person in November, having not seen or heard from him since July. His last known address was from Honolulu, and that was a while back. I guess mom wouldn't call him missing if he was taking money out of a bank account that she was aware of, so it sounds like this guy was pretty off the grid, which isn't easy in 21st century America.
 
Dr.Sid said:
IMHO you absolutely need private insurance. State just can't run businesses, period. Tough experience of 40 years of "communism".
You want private companies. But it has to be regulated. Here the state regulates how much you pay (it's fixed, for every payer, for every insurance company), what things cost, including pharmaceuticals, and what must be covered. The insurance companies themselves are private though, and there is still room for profit and competition. The differences are in optional things covered, mainly different preventive programs and wellness .. for no extra cost, just for the fact you have chosen the company.
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As opposed to your dishonest opinion?

First of all this is not communism. We socialize everything from fire protection, police protection, military defense and so much more . There is no such thing as a modern 100% free market economic system. The only true examples are African hell holes like Somalia. And if there was you wouldn't want to live in it. There also has never been a truly communist system. In fact, the countries that said they were communist were and are also a mixture. Usually more cronyism.

I'm totally in favor of free markets and capitalism when it applies to industries that require innovation. Insurance isn't one of them. It is purely another opportunity for the wealthy to squeeze a few dollars out of the masses. Make more off the top. They add nothing. The US has the most expensive medical system in the Western world. As well as the worst outcomes. Life expectancy hasn't gone up in the US, it has gone down. My cousin needed heart bypass surgery. The only way for him to get the surgery he needed was to go to Thailand and pay out of pocket. And he had Insurance. Our system is a joke. The only people it works for are the business interests. It's great if you're a stockholder or an executive. But it sucks if you're a patient.
 
Skeptical Greg said:
Because you need to attract qualified practitioners who expect to be paid.
What's your bottom line for someone poking around in your skull?
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As opposed to dealing with nuclear weapons where any idiot can do it, we need to privatize the nuclear arsenal.
 
Dr.Sid said:
In private company employees may steal from the company. In state run service CEOs steal from the company. You need at least one person in the company who cares if it runs or not. Stare run companies don't have that.
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Which is why the military never works, mercenaries are the only choice. For profit policing is clearly coming to the Czech republic like the utopian vision of the future that was Robocop.
 
acbytesla said:
As opposed to your dishonest opinion?

First of all this is not communism. We socialize everything from fire protection, police protection, military defense and so much more . There is no such thing as a modern 100% free market economic system. The only true examples are African hell holes like Somalia. And if there was you wouldn't want to live in it. There also has never been a truly communist system. In fact, the countries that said they were communist were and are also a mixture. Usually more cronyism.

I'm totally in favor of free markets and capitalism when it applies to industries that require innovation. Insurance isn't one of them. It is purely another opportunity for the wealthy to squeeze a few dollars out of the masses. Make more off the top. They add nothing. The US has the most expensive medical system in the Western world. As well as the worst outcomes. Life expectancy hasn't gone up in the US, it has gone down. My cousin needed heart bypass surgery. The only way for him to get the surgery he needed was to go to Thailand and pay out of pocket. And he had Insurance. Our system is a joke. The only people it works for are the business interests. It's great if you're a stockholder or an executive. But it sucks if you're a patient.
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You are measuring the process wrong, look at how many more Yachts the American medical system creates. That is vastly more important than how long some worthless poor person lives.
 
Thermal said:
I'll be so much happier if it turns out that the public support for Luigi is not directed at health insurers per se, but a global contempt for sociopathic corporations.
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That is the one thing that seems to unite the vast majority of people, left and right. And it's the one thing that has CEOs, politicians and the mainstream media scared ****less.
'Wanted' posters for CEOs appear in New York (CNN on YouTube, Dec 12, 2024 - 7:22)
The killing of UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson in Midtown Manhattan has shaken C-Suites across the country, with corporations scrambling to protect their senior executives as police warn of an elevated near-term threat against business leaders. CNN reporter Matt Egan explains how companies are ramping up security.
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"Well, Jim, there is a real sense of nervousness and even fear in C-suite, really, across the country.
This fatal shooting in Midtown Manhattan, not far from where I am right now, has been a real wake-up call for business leaders and for boards of directors.
The security firms that are paid top dollars to protect executives, they say that their phones have been ringing off the hook ever since this news broke.
One veteran security executive told me that corporate America is nervous, and he said health care is the target now. But who's next?
And so, yes, companies are considering a range of steps to try to ramp up security, including reassessing the security protocols that are already in place and the budgets. They're increasing the number of security personnel and the amount of technology in offices. And even in the residences of executives.
They're urging executives to delete their digital footprints, including stuff like the floor plans of their homes and any information that's out there about where their kids may go to school.
And they're also enhancing mail screening.
There's also a sense that this killing really made it clear that companies need to extend the security blanket that exists for those top level CEOs."

So far, however, "corporate America" doesn't seem to have considered extending the health-security blanket to cover their customers ...
The whole CNN video is worth listening to. The talking heads condemn the murder, e.g. Alvin Bragg: "This conduct is abhorrent to me. It's deeply disturbing."
And Nicholas Floor, who wrote in the Atlantic: "Murder Is an Awful Answer for Health-Care Anger (The Atlantic, Dec 5, 2024)

However, asked about a couple of excerpts from videos praising Mangiane, he says:
"I mean, to me, what it symbolizes is that people are moving towards this, you know, glorifying violence because they feel like something can't get done otherwise.
I mean, I would argue, frankly, that that is the absolute wrong way to go in every way possible. We know that nonviolent protest is more effective than violent protest.
And I think we all should agree that killing a CEO isn't going to change anything."

But even though he is aware of "the fact that our health care system causes real harm and and real suffering," his only conclusion is "that murder is absolutely incorrect."

Media pundits and politicians seem to agree that there is nothing whatsoever people can or should do against the "real harm and suffering."
It seems as if they want ordinary people to just acquiesce and put up with the miserable conditions instead of doing something about it, and they really, really hate that somebody has taken matters into his own hands, which is the only thing that seems to upset them.
Unfortunately, they don't point to any actual "nonviolent protest" that made healthcare better.
 
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dann said:
That is the one thing that seems to unite the vast majority of people, left and right. And it's the one thing that has CEOs, politicians and the mainstream media scared ****less.

"Well, Jim, there is a real sense of nervousness and even fear in C-suite, really, across the country.
This fatal shooting in Midtown Manhattan, not far from where I am right now, has been a real wake-up call for business leaders and for boards of directors.
The security firms that are paid top dollars to protect executives, they say that their phones have been ringing off the hook ever since this news broke.
One veteran security executive told me that corporate America is nervous, and he said health care is the target now. But who's next?
And so, yes, companies are considering a range of steps to try to ramp up security, including reassessing the security protocols that are already in place and the budgets. They're increasing the number of security personnel and the amount of technology in offices. And even in the residences of executives.
They're urging executives to delete their digital footprints, including stuff like the floor plans of their homes and any information that's out there about where their kids may go to school.
And they're also enhancing mail screening.
There's also a sense that this killing really made it clear that companies need to extend the security blanket that exists for those top level CEOs."

So far, however, "corporate America" doesn't seem to have considered extending the health-security blanket to cover their customers ...
The whole CNN video is worth listening to. The talking heads condemn the murder, e.g. Alvin Bragg: "This conduct is abhorrent to me. It's deeply disturbing."
And Nicholas Floor, who wrote in the Atlantic: "Murder Is an Awful Answer for Health-Care Anger (The Atlantic, Dec 5, 2024)

However, asked about a couple of excerpts from videos praising Mangiane, he says:
"I mean, to me, what it symbolizes is that people are moving towards this, you know, glorifying violence because they feel like something can't get done otherwise.
I mean, I would argue, frankly, that that is the absolute wrong way to go in every way possible. We know that nonviolent protest is more effective than violent protest.
And I think we all should agree that killing a CEO isn't going to change anything."

But even though he is aware of "the fact that our health care system causes real harm and and real suffering," his only conclusion is "that murder is absolutely incorrect."

Media pundits and politicians seem to agree that there is nothing whatsoever people can or should do against the "real harm and suffering."
It seems as if they want ordinary people to just acquiesce and put up with the miserable conditions instead of doing something about it, and they really, really hate that somebody has taken matters into his own hands, which is the only thing that seems to upset them.
Unfortunately, they don't point to any actual "nonviolent protest" that made healthcare better.
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Now we just need to get private security firms to say "We're not mercs. We don't work for the bad guys."
 
acbytesla said:
Silly me. I didn't look at it that way.
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Yea you were far too focused on trivialities like if your cousin lives or dies, instead of the important things like how much money are those at the top making. Remember capitalism defines morality and taking money from those with the capital is immoral. Money is supposed to flow to those with the capital not the other way.
 
dann said:
I think you should read this quotation from my post again:

And when you have finished reading it, you should take a look at the loooong list of "corruption controversies and crime scandals" mentioned in the Wiki link.
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Try reading Richard Brooks' Bean Counters...

None of the big accountancy companies look good.
 
acbytesla said:
Healthcare is a perfect example of the limitations and failure of depending entirely on market capitalism to address every economic issue. . Adam Smith said "in competition, individual ambition serves the common good." As well "as the best result happens when everyone in the group works for themselves." But this in fact isn't the truth, The existence of insurance itself demonstrates that this thinking is inherently flawed.

Private insurance just adds another layer of complexity and allow private interests to needlessly suck off the tit of productivity of the system.
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Its about as silly to suggest the US medical care system is an example of market capitalism as it is to sugesst its communism. Its basicaly the worst of both worlds. To begin with, about half of US medical costs are paid for by the government. For those paid for by private money, the market most folks choose from is the insurer their employer has chosen.

Want an actual market, look at Germany. Want something closer to communism look at the UK. Also, nobody ever talks about who actually drives up costs, it the providers. Greedy doctors and nurses.

Doctor Pay by Country 2024

worldpopulationreview.com worldpopulationreview.com
 
ahhell said:
Its about as silly to suggest the US medical care system is an example of market capitalism as it is to sugesst its communism. Its basicaly the worst of both worlds. To begin with, about half of US medical costs are paid for by the government. For those paid for by private money, the market most folks choose from is the insurer their employer has chosen.

Want an actual market, look at Germany. Want something closer to communism look at the UK. Also, nobody ever talks about who actually drives up costs, it the providers. Greedy doctors and nurses.

Doctor Pay by Country 2024

worldpopulationreview.com worldpopulationreview.com
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I agree, the US health care system isn't an example of market capitalism.
 
Utterly grotesque NPR article:
UHC murder suspect railed about U.S. health care. Here's what he missed (NPR, Dec 12, 2024)

What Luigi Mangione missed is that there are so many other things in the USA that are also ◊◊◊◊◊◊ and thus contributing to life expectancy being "on par with Ecuador and Croatia":
It's true that U.S. health care is uniquely costly and often frustrating, but experts say the reasons our life expectancy trails many comparable nations are complex.
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It's an argument that we are used to hearing from COVID-19 minimizers: 'Yes, but there are also other diseases that kill and maim!' And it bears repeating, apparently:
health care is not the main factor behind poor life expectancy, says Dr. Steven Woolf, director emeritus of the Center on Society and Health at Virginia Commonwealth University.
"Research shows that about 10-20% of health outcomes are attributable to health care," he says. That includes "really serious deficiencies" in the system such as lack of access to insurance and high costs.
"But the majority of the reason for poor life expectancy in the United States exists outside of the health care space."
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There's also "gun violence", "physical inactivity, child poverty, air pollution, and traffic fatalities."
So once again, the comforting message is:
"The healthcare industry is no exception, but it's not the only source of our poor health."
Woolf notes that none of this justifies Thompson's killing, which he says is "clearly horrible."
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After this introduction it is obvious that the worst problem plaguing the USA right now is Mangione, who exacerbated life-expectancy statistics in the land of opportunity:
In the context of Thompson's death, there's an irony: One significant contributor to America's lower life expectancy is gun violence, killing Americans in their prime. (Thompson was 50 years old.)
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Yes, he was.
 
My Jihad/crusade is to try and get advocates for universal healthcare to make the conservative argument for it. Which is basically, the government already pays for universal health coverage but we don't actually get it and we also pay for it out of pocket.
 
Why does everyone try to portray UHC as the bad guys for denying care when they are doing their moral duty of maximizing shareholder value? That is the highest activity one can be involved in in capitalism so clearly the deaths are worth it.
 
ponderingturtle said:
Which is why the military never works, mercenaries are the only choice. For profit policing is clearly coming to the Czech republic like the utopian vision of the future that was Robocop.
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It certainly did. After fall of communism privatization was seen as the only way forward. And it worked in healthcare, it worked in utilities. All the companies which delayed privatization, especially railways, had big problems. Only when competition was allowed in the domain, the quality improved. Competition is the goal. Profit is how to get companies interested. Regulation is how to keep them in check.

But let's not get carried away (too much) .. all I'm saying we have cheap decent healthcare, which is based on regulated, but private insurance, with like 20 companies. Nobody goes bankrupt because he (or family member) got cancer. I can go to doctor any time and I pay nothing besides % of my earnings. The doctor doesn't like what he sees, sends me to CT and 3 blood tests .. I pay nothing. The doctor has to prescribe that though. I may pay something for the drugs, even for prescribed ones, but it's relatively cheap, and things like insulin are fully covered.

And IMHO US might even apply some existing legislature. The fact that pharma company gouges prices of insulin, and the insurance company agrees to pay for it, or that the prices are different for different clients .. there might be laws against that already.

Btw. are the healthcare rules same in the whole US ? When there is no perfect agreement on something .. the states usually add their own regulation. I don't think I've heard about anything like that as far as healthcare goes ..
 
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