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Are Seed Oils bad for us somehow?

ahhell

Philosopher
A
Joined
Feb 2, 2017
Messages
9,089
I've heard it claimed that oils derived from plant seeds are somehow bad for you. The explanations always seem pretty vague and based on the naturalistic fallacy but its not implausible that they are.

I was listening to a podcast the other day where the hosts thought the anti-seed oil was something from the right but I haven't noticed a particular political valence to it. Seems like a lot of food fear mongering in that there's wingnuts all over the political spectrum that believe certain foods are unnatural and therefore bad for you.

Anyrate, anyone know if there's any evidence seed oils are particularly bad for you? Anyone know how this particular food scare got started?
 
ahhell said:
I've heard it claimed that oils derived from plant seeds are somehow bad for you. The explanations always seem pretty vague and based on the naturalistic fallacy but its not implausible that they are.

I was listening to a podcast the other day where the hosts thought the anti-seed oil was something from the right but I haven't noticed a particular political valence to it. Seems like a lot of food fear mongering in that there's wingnuts all over the political spectrum that believe certain foods are unnatural and therefore bad for you.

Anyrate, anyone know if there's any evidence seed oils are particularly bad for you? Anyone know how this particular food scare got started?
Click to expand...
Short Answer: No, seed oils are okay:

www.heart.org

There's no reason to avoid seed oils and plenty of reasons to eat them

Some social media nutrition gurus claim seed oils are harmful. But the science says otherwise.
www.heart.org www.heart.org

mcpress.mayoclinic.org

The pros and cons of seed oils, and how to incorporate them in your diet - Mayo Clinic Press

Oil is a key ingredient to almost every family’s grocery list, every chef’s menu, and nearly all recipes. It’s used to marinate meat, bring flavor…
mcpress.mayoclinic.org mcpress.mayoclinic.org

Seed Oils: Facts & Myths

Alison Kane, RDN, LDN, breaks down facts and myths surrounding seed oils.
www.massgeneral.org www.massgeneral.org

www.uchealth.org

Confused about seed oils? Everything you need to know from health benefits to cooking options.

Confused about seed oils? Heard they're bad? Discover the best options for flavor and nutrition with insights from a UCHealth dietitian.
www.uchealth.org www.uchealth.org

hsph.harvard.edu

Scientists debunk claims of seed oil health risks | Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health

While the internet may be full of posts stating that seed oils such as canola and soy are “toxic,” scientific evidence does not support these claims.
hsph.harvard.edu hsph.harvard.edu

And so on, and so on...

The same people behind this are the same crowd who freak out about Aspartame. Tik-Tok has been the main spreader of this BS, and now RFK Jr. has now made news with this line crap because he is a nutjob:

apnews.com

Kennedy and influencers bash seed oils, baffling nutrition scientists

Seed oils have been the focus of fiery critics from internet influencers to high-profile politicians like HHS Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
apnews.com apnews.com
 
I seem to remember seeing some sort of YouTube video about this.

I think it's part of a larger critique of what has come to be called "ultra-processed foods," many of which are made with seed oils.

What is undeniable is that there has been an obesity epidemic (perhaps it's a pandemic now) and it appears to coincide with the rise of these "ultra-processed foods." Personally I think you could just as easily refer to them as "ultra-convenient foods." Foods that make it easy for us to over-eat, or to snack between regular meals. Foods that come ready to eat right out of the package, or require very little preparation. Foods that cater to our taste buds with sugar, salt and fat.

health.clevelandclinic.org

Seed Oils: Are They Truly Toxic?

Have you heard the claim that seed oils are “toxic”? A registered dietitian explains what they are, what they can do to your body, and whether you need to cut them out forever or just focus on a healthy, balanced diet. (Hint: It’s the latter.)
health.clevelandclinic.org health.clevelandclinic.org
 
Puppycow said:
I seem to remember seeing some sort of YouTube video about this.

I think it's part of a larger critique of what has come to be called "ultra-processed foods," many of which are made with seed oils.

What is undeniable is that there has been an obesity epidemic (perhaps it's a pandemic now) and it appears to coincide with the rise of these "ultra-processed foods." Personally I think you could just as easily refer to them as "ultra-convenient foods." Foods that make it easy for us to over-eat, or to snack between regular meals. Foods that come ready to eat right out of the package, or require very little preparation. Foods that cater to our taste buds with sugar, salt and fat.

health.clevelandclinic.org

Seed Oils: Are They Truly Toxic?

Have you heard the claim that seed oils are “toxic”? A registered dietitian explains what they are, what they can do to your body, and whether you need to cut them out forever or just focus on a healthy, balanced diet. (Hint: It’s the latter.)
health.clevelandclinic.org health.clevelandclinic.org
Click to expand...
Big Food has made food very tasty, calorie dense and (relatively) cheap. But people like RFK Jr claim, whether they believe it or not (almost certainly not), that one of the ingredients is the cause of all the ills of obese people.
 
angrysoba said:
Big Food has made food very tasty, calorie dense and (relatively) cheap. But people like RFK Jr claim, whether they believe it or not (almost certainly not), that one of the ingredients is the cause of all the ills of obese people.
Click to expand...
Yeah, and just to clarify, I don't think that seed oils are the real root cause of the problem. It is, as you say, that the food is very tasty, calorie dense and (relatively) cheap (and I would add ultra-convenient to that). We also live in an age where you can have groceries, restaurant meals and fast food delivered to your house, so that you barely have to move a muscle or walk anywhere to get it. Nor do you have to travel to a cinema to watch a movie or whatever form of entertainment you prefer. You can just stream it on your high definition TV now and watch it from your couch.
 
Puppycow said:
I seem to remember seeing some sort of YouTube video about this.

I think it's part of a larger critique of what has come to be called "ultra-processed foods," many of which are made with seed oils.

What is undeniable is that there has been an obesity epidemic (perhaps it's a pandemic now) and it appears to coincide with the rise of these "ultra-processed foods." Personally I think you could just as easily refer to them as "ultra-convenient foods." Foods that make it easy for us to over-eat, or to snack between regular meals. Foods that come ready to eat right out of the package, or require very little preparation. Foods that cater to our taste buds with sugar, salt and fat.

health.clevelandclinic.org

Seed Oils: Are They Truly Toxic?

Have you heard the claim that seed oils are “toxic”? A registered dietitian explains what they are, what they can do to your body, and whether you need to cut them out forever or just focus on a healthy, balanced diet. (Hint: It’s the latter.)
health.clevelandclinic.org health.clevelandclinic.org
Click to expand...
I like to point out that there are no guards in the pastry section. Anyone can walk right up, take whatever they want, and as much as they can afford, and wheel the cart up to the checkout counter to take home. Maybe stores could station some judgmental person near the bakery to sneer at me as I reach for the French Cheesecake, or put a scale in the potato chip isle that controls a gate that just allows people under a certain weight to enter.

Or maybe we can look at our culture, and society to address things like how few people today know how to cook, and a large percentage of people don't have access to a stove or oven, and are limited to microwaves, and maybe air-fryers. Bring back Home Economics classes in junior high and high schools to teach kids how to cook, and about how trough cooking they can control their nutrition. But no, it's all seed oil's fault.
 
What percentage of people don't have access to stove or oven, outside the Navy, I never lived anywhere that didn't have both and prior to moving in with my wife, the only thing I cared about when renting a place was price.

That being said, I mostly convinced seed oils aren't the problem they're made out to be, though being skeptical, I won't be surprised if the best science changes at some future date. But what about the political connection, is the anti-seed oil crowd particularly right wing or left wing? I've not noticed it.

So the obesity epidemic has coincided with the rise of ultra processed foods and reduced poverty and a rise in relatively cheap calories, at least in the US.

I'm not a big fan of common definitions of ultraprocessed foods. Sure, I hear that and think, Kraft Dinner, packaged pastries, etc but per the US National Institute of Health, it also includes pickles and salted nuts. Seems a bit overly broad.

The most commonly used category system is the NOVA system:
en.wikipedia.org

Nova classification - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

Lost of may contain, may be packaged, commonly .......fairly flexible language.
Ultra-processed foods are operationally distinguishable from processed foods by the presence of food substances of no culinary use (varieties of sugars such as fructose, high-fructose corn syrup, 'fruit juice concentrates', invert sugar, maltodextrin, dextrose and lactose; modified starches; modified oils such as hydrogenated or interesterified oils; and protein sources such as hydrolysed proteins, soya protein isolate, gluten, casein, whey protein and 'mechanically separated meat') ......
Click to expand...
Bit of a weird list if you ask me. Lactose has no culinary use? Its just milk sugar.
 
Whatever you may enjoy, there's a begrudger out there trying to make you miserable about it.

And God help you if you get in touch with your inner begrudger.
 
ahhell said:
The most commonly used category system is the NOVA system:
en.wikipedia.org

Nova classification - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
Click to expand...
I agree. I don't think that "ultraprocessed" per se is the problem either. It's just a label. The full Nova definition is extremely long. You could have "ultraprocessed" food that's meant to be healthy, but ultimately consumers are the final judge. To me, it's the convenience of them, which leads to the overconsumption. The fact that they also happen to be "ultraprocessed" is coincidental.
 
ahhell said:
What percentage of people don't have access to stove or oven, outside the Navy, I never lived anywhere that didn't have both and prior to moving in with my wife, the only thing I cared about when renting a place was price.

That being said, I mostly convinced seed oils aren't the problem they're made out to be, though being skeptical, I won't be surprised if the best science changes at some future date. But what about the political connection, is the anti-seed oil crowd particularly right wing or left wing? I've not noticed it.

So the obesity epidemic has coincided with the rise of ultra processed foods and reduced poverty and a rise in relatively cheap calories, at least in the US.

I'm not a big fan of common definitions of ultraprocessed foods. Sure, I hear that and think, Kraft Dinner, packaged pastries, etc but per the US National Institute of Health, it also includes pickles and salted nuts. Seems a bit overly broad.

The most commonly used category system is the NOVA system:
en.wikipedia.org

Nova classification - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

Lost of may contain, may be packaged, commonly .......fairly flexible language.

Bit of a weird list if you ask me. Lactose has no culinary use? Its just milk sugar.
Click to expand...

While I agree that it is rare, I have reason to believe that the number is not zero.

While working in Woomera, I briefly dealt with an American (USAF) couple who were dealing with a pretty steep learning curve.

They said it was pretty common for smaller apartments in their city (Chicago maybe?) to not have cooking facilities, beyond a toaster and a single hotplate. They were used to buying all meals outside their home and had no pots/pans/appliances/cookware/cutlery etc.

Woomera, which had very few opportunities for 'dining out' was a bit of a challenge.

(From memory, we had the Eldo hotel, Spuds at Pimba, a takeaway shop, and there was an American couple that cooked 'take out' for others from their own kitchen in their house. I think, in the latter case, she was from a Chinese background and preparing American Chinese food.)

When I was apartment/flat hunting in Sydney, I turned down many, because they had inadequate (AKA zero) cooking facilities/areas/opportunities.

(I was looking at the lowest level of accommodation back then, barely above renting a 'room', so that was probably a factor.)

My flat on Bondi Road, had a 'galley' kitchen that was about the size of two telephone boxes. Two people could be in there at the same time, but you couldn't pass each other and would have to stand still and rely on each other to pass things back and forth. My girlfriend and I looked like jugglers when we prepared meals together.

:)
 
Axxman300 said:
I like to point out that there are no guards in the pastry section. Anyone can walk right up, take whatever they want, and as much as they can afford, and wheel the cart up to the checkout counter to take home. Maybe stores could station some judgmental person near the bakery to sneer at me as I reach for the French Cheesecake, or put a scale in the potato chip isle that controls a gate that just allows people under a certain weight to enter.
Click to expand...
Korea seems to be ahead of the game? I even have a slogan!
If u can’t get through,
No pastry for you.
20220125000611_0.jpg
 
I've already forgotten the name of our short-lived, now banned correspondent of late, who was both ultra-conservative and anti vax, and a strong advocate of grape seed oil, and I can't help but wonder if she will survive the experience.
 
ahhell said:
What percentage of people don't have access to stove or oven, outside the Navy, I never lived anywhere that didn't have both and prior to moving in with my wife, the only thing I cared about when renting a place was price.
Click to expand...
They exist. I know someone who lives in a cheap hotel room, and only has the use of a microwave and a small fridge.
 
I hear great things about grape seed extract.

/sarcasm

C

Thread '4 Cancer Models and Grape Seed Extract'

Skin, Breast, Prostate and Colorectal

All these and now probably more are worked on in cancer research clinics with grape seed extract...Mayo, City of Hope, Sloan Kettering, Univ of Maryland and how many more I don't know

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2728696/


Personally I've done 2 mams in my life and NO colonoscopies...

Hope you all have some fun with this topic on cancers.
 
Hard to imagine getting much volume of oil from grape seeds. (Especially the seedless sort!!)

I guess it's marketed as a weird kind of health food rather than as cooking oil.
 
Years of experience tell me that at some point I've read or been told that every single item in our diet is BAD FOR US. Surely "everything in moderation" is a better song to sing. I have read of people dying from drinking too much water,
 
Well, linseed oil is probably bad to eat... but linseed is the exact same thing as flax seed. I suppose it depends upon how you extract/process it.
 
Manopolus said:
Well, linseed oil is probably bad to eat... but linseed is the exact same thing as flax seed. I suppose it depends upon how you extract/process it.
Click to expand...
The kind you put in paint and stuff is extracted with solvents, and boiled linseed oil (which is what you put on garden tool handles and such, because it dries) has some chemical additives. Baby furniture is sometimes finished with linseed oil, but it's best done with cold-pressed food grade oil. You won't get a health benefit if you chew on your axe handle, but you won't die from it either.
 
bruto said:
The kind you put in paint and stuff is extracted with solvents, and boiled linseed oil (which is what you put on garden tool handles and such, because it dries) has some chemical additives. Baby furniture is sometimes finished with linseed oil, but it's best done with cold-pressed food grade oil. You won't get a health benefit if you chew on your axe handle, but you won't die from it either.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I've mostly just used it in oil painting... usually cut half and half with turpentine as a medium. I've also used it as a wood preservative once or twice. Never really thought of it as something to ingest. But it is a seed oil. Technically, it yellows over time, but that just makes it look old in the same way that old paintings look old.
 
Last edited:
novaphile said:
While I agree that it is rare, I have reason to believe that the number is not zero.
While working in Woomera, I briefly dealt with an American (USAF) couple who were dealing with a pretty steep learning curve.

They said it was pretty common for smaller apartments in their city (Chicago maybe?) to not have cooking facilities, beyond a toaster and a single hotplate. They were used to buying all meals outside their home and had no pots/pans/appliances/cookware/cutlery etc.

Woomera, which had very few opportunities for 'dining out' was a bit of a challenge.

(From memory, we had the Eldo hotel, Spuds at Pimba, a takeaway shop, and there was an American couple that cooked 'take out' for others from their own kitchen in their house. I think, in the latter case, she was from a Chinese background and preparing American Chinese food.)

When I was apartment/flat hunting in Sydney, I turned down many, because they had inadequate (AKA zero) cooking facilities/areas/opportunities.

(I was looking at the lowest level of accommodation back then, barely above renting a 'room', so that was probably a factor.)

My flat on Bondi Road, had a 'galley' kitchen that was about the size of two telephone boxes. Two people could be in there at the same time, but you couldn't pass each other and would have to stand still and rely on each other to pass things back and forth. My girlfriend and I looked like jugglers when we prepared meals together.

:)
Click to expand...
I'm sure its non-zero but I was responded to a post about the "large percentage" of people that don't have access to either as though that is in some way related to the obesity epidemic. At least in the US, I'd bet access to an adequate kitchen is inversely proportional to increasing obesity rates. These days, its college students and junior enlisted personnel that don't have a stove and or oven and that's about it. I suppose some folks in some cities too but even in notoriously expensive SF, I had both in an extraordinarily cheap place.
 
As humanity progresses in freedom, plentiful, cheap food is available. Oh look, people are fat. Even that is more sedentary lifestyle. During college I alway lost weight in summers working at factories.

Also, there was a Dutch study of rats where they kept two batches and fed them reduced calorie to make them lose weight. One set they kept normal temp, the other in the cold. Obviously the ones kept in the cold would lose weight faster as they'd have to burn more to stay warm.

The opposite happened. The ones kept in the cold lost weight more slowly.

Autopsies showed their intestines had grown bigger and more efficient, to suck more energy out of food.

Guess what's been big on humanity's plate the past few decades? Air conditioning! Many fat places are closer to the Equator, like Mexico and some in the middle east.

I always wondered if they put two and two together and pursued that theory.

As for grains per se, blood sugar issues (that part anyway) are related to quantity, as any Japanese or Ozempic-face individual can tell you.
 
Last edited:
Beerina said:
As humanity progresses in freedom, plentiful, cheap food is available. Oh look, people are fat. Even that is more sedentary lifestyle. During college I alway lost weight in summers working at factories.

Also, there was a Dutch study of rats where they kept two batches and fed them reduced calorie to make them lose weight. One set they kept normal temp, the other in the cold. Obviously the ones kept in the cold would lose weight faster as they'd have to burn more to stay warm.

The opposite happened. The ones kept in the cold lost weight more slowly.

Autopsies showed their intestines had grown bigger and more efficient, to suck more energy out of food.

Guess what's been big on humanity's plate the past few decades? Air conditioning! Many fat places are closer to the Equator, like Mexico and some in the middle east.

I always wondered if they put two and two together and pursued that theory.

As for grains per se, blood sugar issues (that part anyway) are related to quantity, as any Japanese or Ozempic-face individual can tell you.
Click to expand...
Best shape I've ever been in was college, I was late 20s to 30s but worked loading trucks at night, road my bike everywhere for transportation, ran daily, and had no money for food or drink, lived of instant noodles and frozen burritos. Graduated and gained 40lbs in 6 months.

The other question I had is, does the anti-seed oil woo have a particular political valence? The podcast I was listening to suggested it was more common on the right but I think its more common in the gym than any particular political group.
 
Last edited:
ahhell said:
The other question I had is, does the anti-seed oil woo have a particular political valence? The podcast I was listening to suggested it was more common on the right but I think its more common in the gym than any particular political group.
Click to expand...
If I had to take a wild guess, it's probably anti-vegetarian sentiment gone off the deep end, possibly to the point of suggesting that we should go back to cooking with lard and/or butter.

But that's just a guess. I've heard some random people mention seed oils negatively in passing. I have no idea what they're on about, because I've never heard them attempt to justify it. They just acted like they expected their listeners to already know all about how horrible seed oils were and moved on. In my case, it was probably in a bodybuilder-related (or exercise science) video of some sort... much of which are a little loose with the facts, anyway... usually for the purpose of selling supplements.

My other wild guess would suggest noticing what supplements or food products the claimant is peddling. Virtually all the information the public gets about this or that food being either good or bad comes from advertisers, not doctors or nutrition experts (although they might selectively cite or even employ such people if it fits their ad campaign).
 
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Most of the rationalizations I've heard for it amount to the naturalistic fallacy. Lard, butter, olive oil ok but seeds have to be processed to get the oil out.
 
I wonder if people are just mistaking seed oils for (or lumping them in with) tropical oils.
 
Myriad said:
I wonder if people are just mistaking seed oils for (or lumping them in with) tropical oils.
Click to expand...
Some might be but I've heard enough folks rail on this that I'm pretty sure some at least mean seed oils, Rape seed, soy, corn and such.
 
ahhell said:
Some might be but I've heard enough folks rail on this that I'm pretty sure some at least mean seed oils, Rape seed, soy, corn and such.
Click to expand...
Which by itself seems kind of silly. There are seeds and seeds, just as there are trees and trees. You can like maple syrup without wanting palm oil in your crackers, and you can cook with rape seed oil without mistaking it for corn oil.
 
Aren't seeds NATURAL? So surely their oils must be too? How can anything NATURAL harm you?

:hit:
 
My favorite was a website I saw years ago saying that canola oil was extracted from a close relative of the mustard plant, which they claimed was "the source of the deadly Mustard Gas used in World War I".
 
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