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American Millennials among world's least skilled

Leaving aside the decline/not decline debate I'm having with ABP, overall the results for America are indeed not spectacular and the discussion at National Education institutes in America seem to be more focused on why things have stayed the same. Why haven't things improved? There is a lot of data breaking things down by poverty, race, immigrant vs non-immigrant, that paints an interesting picture. If anyone is interested an assessment is here.
 
TriangleMan -
The stated goal of the US, at least federally, is for the US to have the best educated workforce in the world. A place like Shanghai is almost four years ahead of us in terms of grade levels in math on the PISA.

Appalling is entirely arbitrary - if our goal is to beat Bhutan then these results are quite marvelous. But if we go by our stated national objectives (Obama's goal was to be at the top of the world by 2020) then we have to use very different adjectives - strong ones - to describe these results.

When policy makers are discussing having the best-educated workforce, what exactly do they mean? Do you think Obama and others are now pushing to have East Asian-style education systems like in Korea, Japan or China? I doubt that. I assume they are judging this on other criteria: university attendance, adult educational opportunities, or other measures. If Obama specifically said the 2020 goal was to be #1 in tests like PISA or PIAAC then he's dreaming.

East Asian countries score very well in the international tests, but at what price? Are Western countries willing to upend work-life balance to emulate East Asian models of education? I don't know of any Western countries that have.
 
Certainly, could you provide a link to the charts please? I can't see the link to the report, unless I've missed it somehow the only links in the thread are to the Fortune report in the OP and a Psychology Today article.

I have to admit that you're request made me laugh in this particular context regarding certain people's ability to use technology.

The fortune article links to the primary source.

http://www.ets.org/s/research/30079/index.html

You'll have to click on some more links to find the charts but I don't want to spoil the challenge.;)
 
I have to admit that you're request made me laugh in this particular context regarding certain people's ability to use technology.

The fortune article links to the primary source.

http://www.ets.org/s/research/30079/index.html

You'll have to click on some more links to find the charts but I don't want to spoil the challenge.;)

Thank you! Geez, I thought I was going blind. I searched through all the posts in the thread and was scrolling through the Fortune article, didn't see the link, and then at the bottom Fortune would go to some unrelated article. I was going nuts trying to figure what study people were mentioning and where these graphs were coming from. I wound up researching from scratch and re-creating the tables at the NCES using their Data Explorer system, but since the formatting was different I knew the graphs were from somewhere else so it was confusing me.

So, bear in mind my previous posts were made without having seen the ets paper. So when I stated:
Was 1994 the first use of the test? If so then a comparison should be made with other countries to see if they also experienced similar changes to the scores between 1994 and 2003 -- if there were it may indicate that the test was slightly different or there was a slight change to the calibration,

It turned out I was correct. The 1994 data is from a different test, the IALS. It is strongly similar to PIAAC but it is not the same (the OECD notes that about 60% of the questions were similar), and there was a mapping exercise to try to harmonize the results for long-term analysis. Is that not "slightly different"? But when I suggest that maybe that was the case instead I'm just being contemptuous?

In the PIAAC country report for Ireland they discuss the IALS vs PIAAC at length, on page 76 it states:
There was considerable variation in the survey execution of IALS across countries to such an extent that it has been argued that international comparisons based on IALS data should be interpreted with caution (OECD, 2013a). On the other hand, PIAAC has been described by the OECD as one of the most closely monitored and controlled surveys of its type, notwithstanding the large variations in response rates across countries.

Caution when interpreting results.

Taking the 2003 results (also not PIAAC by the way but a test called ALL) and comparing to 2012 PIAAC there has been no decline. PISA for 12 years shows no decline. The PIAAC country report for the United States talks more about how things stayed relatively the same (though maybe not numeracy) and that the real issue is that scores didn't improve.

There is data going back farther. The National Assessment of Educational Progress goes back to the 1970s the test has been restructured over time but like the IALS vs PIAAC they too did mapping and extrapolations for comparability. Results are pretty consistent over 40 years.

America's overall results compared to peers is not great. It appears to be consistently not great. I've gone back to the data but I still don't see this decline that people mention. If that means I am in disagreement with the ets authors then I guess I am.

I would prefer to see discussions on ways forward but if posters here really insist there is a shocking decline we can continue to discuss it.
 
Forgot to mention -- if anyone is interested in seeing how other countries performed on the IALS / ALL / PIAAC, page 78 of the Ireland Country Report has a table with the scores.
 
America's overall results compared to peers is not great. It appears to be consistently not great.

"Not Great" is evasive and misleading. The report itself uses accurate terms or precise placings on test components like "no other country scored lower".


I've gone back to the data but I still don't see this decline that people mention. If that means I am in disagreement with the ets authors then I guess I am.

It means you selectively ignore data you don't like and display remarkable inability to follow leads that are handed to you. If you had the motivation to look into the ACT/SAT score histories as I suggested, you would also see many years of decline followed by stagnant scores as this emphasis on standardized testing came into play.

The National Center for Fair and Open Testing has a report every year - those guys are really against what they call "test fixation" since No Child Left Behind:

SAT results for the nation’s high school seniors continue to stagnate according to data released today by the test’s sponsor, the College Board. Overall SAT averages have dropped by 21 points since 2006 when the test was last revised. Score gaps between racial groups increased, often significantly over that period.

Bob Schaeffer, Public Education Director of the National Center for Fair & Open Testing (FairTest), said, “Proponents of 'No Child Left Behind,' 'Race to the Top,' and similar state-level programs promised that a focus on testing would boost college readiness while narrowing gaps between ethnic groups. SAT score trends show a total failure, according to their own measures. Scores have declined since 2006 for every group except Asians. Doubling down on unsuccessful policies with more high-stakes K-12 testing, as Common Core exam proponents propose, is an exercise in futility, not meaningful school improvement. Nor will revising the SAT, as currently planned, address the nation’s underlying educational issues.”

http://www.fairtest.org/2014-sat-score-trend-remains-flat-testfixated-scho

Our national policies are an abject failure according to their own measures.

When you consciously choose to use evasive and deceptive terms for incontrovertible numerical measures we are in no position to do this:

I would prefer to see discussions on ways forward but if posters here really insist there is a shocking decline we can continue to discuss it.

When you choose to be deceptive about the results of our national programs then we can't have an honest discussion about ways forward. You even created a disingenuous straw man here by combining "appalling results" with "decline in scores" to "shocking decline" in scores which NOBODY has said.

When the results are a total failure it points to a fundamental re-thinking of our entire approach, not making small adjustments or doubling down on the proven failure.

Guess who is the only group whose scores did not decline? Asians. Their scores went up by 51 points compared to the average decline of 21 points.

Oh boy, there's a big surprise. Guess who is kicking our ass on international tests? What are the Asians doing that the other groups are not doing? I can tell you. My kids are half Asian, and we have the same values as Asian-Americans and the Asians doing so well on these international comparisons.

But your approach is to selectively interpret data to obscure important differences like this. You asked for someone with statistical experience because you figured that was a way to invalidate this report. But upon discovery I have decades of professional experience in just that - you decide that it should be ignored.

This is NOT a matter of statistical expertise being needed to interpret these results. It is merely a matter of reading plain English from the professionals whose sole job it is to measure performance - to construct examinations and interpret the results for laymen like you.

You don't like those very sobering results, so you reject their professional expertise and supplant it with your own very biased and inexperienced excuse-making.

It's the "TriangleMan Report". The report explains why we are doing much better than the professional analysts think. Based upon this correction to their urgings that something is very wrong and we need to re-think our entire approach, we can now have a much better discussion about what to do.

Please take this as sincere concern for something we should have grave concerns about, not just idle bickering. We have to be honest about the problem.
 
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When policy makers are discussing having the best-educated workforce, what exactly do they mean? Do you think Obama and others are now pushing to have East Asian-style education systems like in Korea, Japan or China? I doubt that. I assume they are judging this on other criteria: university attendance, adult educational opportunities, or other measures. If Obama specifically said the 2020 goal was to be #1 in tests like PISA or PIAAC then he's dreaming.

East Asian countries score very well in the international tests, but at what price? Are Western countries willing to upend work-life balance to emulate East Asian models of education? I don't know of any Western countries that have.

They are politicians, and they're lying.

This has nothing to do with work-life balance. Americans watch on average five hours of television per day. Why would "work-life" be chosen as the trade off instead of entertainment?

Are we willing to give up even one hour of television? We would already be doing it, were it true.

My wife is Asian.

She taught writing seven days a week with no vacations to her children, and before that it was a whole series of things like the alphabet, colors, shapes, etc.

As infants, and through toddler age it didn't make sense for her to work, especially breast feeding. She is going back to work next week. She will still be involved educationally. But the kids can make their own sandwiches, dress themselves, direct their own play - this is what made a work trade-off a legitimate concern.

It isn't the Asian "educational system" at work here. It is Asian values.

I don't know what to say about the "test fixation". We test at least once a week in reading and it is all we do in math right now. The eldest (five) loves tests. He takes 6th to 9th grade tests we download from all the different states that put them online. Before that I wrote lessons every day myself. We follow no curriculum and neither of us has had a single day of elementary education training.

But since education is by far our highest priority, and because we do it as a family activity, the kids want to excel at it. And we really do speak frankly - daily - about their competition being the best kids in Korea, Japan, Shanghai, etc. So when the five year old finished California's 9th grade reading test he asked us "am I ahead of the Korean boy yet?"

We really do have a realistic idea of what it takes. We studied the pedagogy in these different countries and came away with the understanding it doesn't have a thing to do with pedagogy. It has to do with making it your priority and working at it every day.
 
I had a colleague in his late 20s or early 30s who didn't know how to change a car wheel or use an electric drill, he's no longer a colleague.
 
I'm not sure it's reasonable to trust the Chinese government to give an accurate accounting of student performance.

Lately I've been less concerned about American competitiveness. If it's not up to snuff, someone will out-compete us and that's probably OK. It would be nice to think that American ideals of fairness, freedom etc. will become the worldwide norm, but I'm not sure they will. The U.S. does, traditionally, rank high in measures of "innovation" and a tradition of intellectual freedom probably helps in that area. But countries with different values seem to be doing OK, if we are going by certain educational statistics.
 
I'm not sure it's reasonable to trust the Chinese government to give an accurate accounting of student performance.

Lately I've been less concerned about American competitiveness. If it's not up to snuff, someone will out-compete us and that's probably OK. It would be nice to think that American ideals of fairness, freedom etc. will become the worldwide norm, but I'm not sure they will. The U.S. does, traditionally, rank high in measures of "innovation" and a tradition of intellectual freedom probably helps in that area. But countries with different values seem to be doing OK, if we are going by certain educational statistics.
The freedom to innovate and, in part, the freedom to innovate and fail is one aspect that seems to be lost in this debate. From my understanding of Asian culture, there are twin drawbacks of conformity and saving face that makes it difficult to innovate. Yes, they have very good scores on international tests, but do those scores come at a cost of everyone thinking more or less the same and unwilling to rock any boats?

For example, most of the infrastructure we're using for this communication is American. Americans invented the personal computer (Brits are welcome to disagree with me on this), the whole idea of the Internet, TCP/IP, fibre-optic communications, programming languages, and forum software. Asians have been very good at improving these technologies, but the innovation all seems to be American.
 
These responses may explain why, despite this report, other similar reports, and our own government urging us to understand how important this problem is to our future that it will continue to get worse.

That is an illuminating quote in your signature Blue Mountain:

The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them

From a professional educator above we hear that the Chinese are cheating. But it's OK if we are out-competed anyway. Hopefully the rest of the world will stop studying hard and adopt "fairness". :boggled:

We hear that it's okay because we're "traditionally" innovators. Guess who is #1 in the world for patent applications? China. Guess who is #1 on patents granted? Japan. #1 per GDP: Korea. #1 Per capita: Korea. All Asians. Is that why they have such difficulty being #1 in the world for innovation? The drawbacks of conformity and needing to save face?

We're still near the top by the various measures, but this report under discussion is all about the people who represent our future in terms of innovation, and it is bleak.

I remember growing up how we used to laugh at "Made in Japan". Not any more. Then we laughed at "Made in China". Not any more. South Korea was a joke in 1960, with workers going to the Philippines for better employment. It's gone from merely hundreds of dollars GDP to almost $25,000 per person in constant dollars. So now the Filipinos go to South Korea for employment.

China's GDP is already larger than ours and at current relative growth rates will be twice as large in 19 years. We seem to be fixated on military domination of the world, but without dominating economically we cannot dominate militarily.

The report said our millenials had difficulty following simple instructions. Can't do math, can't solve problems - so how is this a group that is going to be leading the world in in the future?

Our politicians and appointed heads of educational departments at least pay lip service to the understanding that yeah, we should probably be able to read and write; add and subtract; be able to think in order to secure our future.

But the people at large? Watching Big Bang Theory and Dancing with the Stars according to Nielsen.
 
Let's look at some of the numbers:

Literacy: United States scored 270 in a range of 250-296 (OECD average 273)
Numeracy: United States scored 253 in a range of 253-288 (OECD average 269)
Problem solving: United States scored 277 in a range of 275-294 (OECD average 283)

Yes, the US didn't score that well out of the overall range, and was below average in all three. But is this possibly like the athlete who ended up in the bottom half of the rankings at the Olympics and so didn't earn a medal? The athlete was in the Olympics, something your average person in the street cannot boast.

I disagree with AlaskaBushPilot's comment above that "The report said our millenials had difficulty following simple instructions." It said nothing of the sort. Indeed, the word "instructions" appears only once, in the context of "The instructions inform the test-taker to ...". (Read it for yourself here. [PDF].) All it states was that American Millenials score more poorly than their counterparts on solving problems, not that they couldn't follow simple instructions.

Going back one step to the original article linked to in the opening post, it didn't say that either. It simply mentioned that following simple instructions was part of the literacy tests; it did not say Millenials were unable to do that.

The report shows there is room to improve, and it also shows that the Millenials don't seem to have benefited as much as they could have from the American education system. And although my country (Canada) fared better, it's still nothing to crow about. But I think saying the days of the United States being a major technical and innovation powerhouse are over is like Chicken Little crying about a falling sky.
 
The freedom to innovate and, in part, the freedom to innovate and fail is one aspect that seems to be lost in this debate. From my understanding of Asian culture, there are twin drawbacks of conformity and saving face that makes it difficult to innovate.

I would be leery of attributing anything significant to such a broad phrase as "Asian culture." Japan industrialized relatively early; China seemed intent on going backward for much of the 20th century. If China's rulers can now sustain economic growth while keeping personal freedom to a minimum, it will demonstrate that repressive governments can deliver a higher standard of living while keeping a stranglehold on power.

For example, most of the infrastructure we're using for this communication is American. Americans invented the personal computer (Brits are welcome to disagree with me on this), the whole idea of the Internet, TCP/IP, fibre-optic communications, programming languages, and forum software. Asians have been very good at improving these technologies, but the innovation all seems to be American.

The U.S. values original ideas. It invented a certain technology of governance - a scaffolding flexible enough to adapt and endure when tested. The pioneer spirit was rewarded often enough to make it part of our national myth.

I like to think that American innovation is related to openness in general - for example, Jewish scientists welcomed in the U.S. gave it an edge in building the first atom bomb. But the knowledge wasn't going to stay secret for long. It could have been stolen, or scientists elsewhere could have made the breakthrough.

There are a lot of young Americans with jobs they had to compete for, so I wouldn't write off the whole generation.
 
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Yes, the US didn't score that well out of the overall range, and was below average in all three. But is this possibly like the athlete who ended up in the bottom half of the rankings at the Olympics and so didn't earn a medal? The athlete was in the Olympics, something your average person in the street cannot boast.

lol. From Madeline Goodman, a co-author of the study quoted in the OP article:


“We really thought [U.S.] Millennials would do better than the general adult population, either compared to older coworkers in the U.S. or to the same age group in other countries,” says Madeline Goodman, an ETS researcher who worked on the study. “But they didn’t. In fact, their scores were abysmal.”

Abysmal. The word choice of a co-author.

From the article in the OP:

ETS got a shock

Not my words. Theirs.

Total failure of our policies, according to the SAT/ACT analysts quoted above.

Not my words. Theirs. The professionals doing nothing but this as their job.

You have no background whatsoever in either testing or statistics, telling these professionals they don't know their business, and deceptively insinuating it is me distorting these results.


I disagree with AlaskaBushPilot's comment above that "The report said our millenials had difficulty following simple instructions." It said nothing of the sort. Indeed, the word "instructions" appears only once, in the context of "The instructions inform the test-taker to ...".

It was another quote from the article in the OP:

Millennials in the U.S. fall short when it comes to the skills employers want most: literacy (including the ability to follow simple instructions),

You claimed the article didn't say that, and instead of quoting it like I just did, you made a false assertion. This test is measuring that ability by measuring literacy skills. Without literacy, you cannot follow written instructions at all.

No, we should not be using stupid analogies. We should talk about the subject, which is our Millenials scoring abysmally, a shocking result, and the total failure of our educational policy: the words of the professionals studying this problem.

Despite spending more per student than any other country in the world:


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/25/oecd-education-report_n_3496875.html

We spend $15,171 per student compared to the OECD average of $9,313. That's 63% more than the average in spending, yet coming in last place statistically in two out of three measures. In the third, well below average.


My wife and I spent zero public dollars, and will continue to spend zero. I just administered another 7th grade test to a pre-schooler. One from Massachusetts. It is baffling to us how badly schools are doing with the stupendous resources they have. Yet we, with nothing, have these kids many years ahead of their peers.
 
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The report shows there is room to improve, and it also shows that the Millenials don't seem to have benefited as much as they could have from the American education system.

Though this is a huge oversimplification, I believe that privileged populations in general might be less motivated to compete than the up-and-coming - thus leading to poorer test scores. The patience to stick with the test is a huge factor. I've seen lots of American young people race through tests with no concept of the advantages of taking their time.

ETA, to be sure I may be disparaged as an "education professional." I'm more of a media professional, with a relatively recent career as an education professional - i.e., substitute teacher, working to promote student progress even though I don't design the curriculum or hand out the grades. As such, I see more problems with motivation than with actual intelligence/skills. But, my commitment is usually fairly short term, striving to encourage progress despite my limited long-term low;
 
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Well I am just a hick in the woods, but we're going to kick these Asian countries' asses. Mop the floor with them. We're out of the gate early and way ahead already but know we have to work every day to stay in front, especially in math.

I tried to find a wider base of international scores, and look at educational scores across the different states, and this one is an example:

http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2013/10/report-american-education-isnt-mediocre-its-deeply-unequal/280827/

This is the TIMSS 8th grade Math test 2011 for those above the average:

timss1_zps251bku0i.png


and for those below the average:

timss2_zps2bowedo4.png


Our best state (Massachusetts) is almost as good as Asian Americans! Asian Americans scored 568, (from page 27 of the highlights report). Massachusetts wasn't too far behind, at 561. But Asian Americans were still below those top five Asian regions that lead the world.

I didn't spend much time reviewing this one but it is incredible for the massive difference across the states. Alabama, Mississippi, Washington DC - sheesh. A over a hundred points below the Asian leaders. There are also some very interesting gender differences in different countries that are opposite ours. Boys in Oman are being crushed by the girls in math.

This is a comprehensive report card across the states:

http://www.alec.org/publications/report-card-on-american-education/

They put Massachusetts at the top spot, but South Carolina at the bottom. I don't see why - they have a whole 1% of their students at an advanced reading level. I see their supreme court ruled that the state government was failing to provide a minimally adequate education to poor, rural districts.

So odd that despite this court ruling there is virtually no concern by the public, so the legislature is doing...nothing.

As we look into Massachusetts though, they have a specific focus on world class standards:

http://www.doe.mass.edu/frameworks/


It seems pretty self-explanatory to me - the place making a concerted effort for world class standards has world class performance. The place that doesn't give a **** is making Saudi Arabia and Yemen look half way smart.

We are about to enter our final sprint in the preparation for kindergarten just as everyone else in the US School system is going on vacation. That pretty much explains why it is so easy to blow the doors off the USA without a lot of time spent every day. Not too hard to beat zero.
 
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It is worth looking deeper into Massachusetts, especially before devolving into an argument about why all the other states are doing just as well even though their scores are lower:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/03/science/expecting-the-best-yields-results-in-massachusetts.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

They passed an educational reform bill in 1993. Several things happened:

- Teacher qualification tests got stiffer

- Students had to pass exams to get diplomas and take required subjects before advancing to the next grade. (Algebra I is required to get out of 8th grade for example)

- standards establish what students are expected to know, but not how teachers are supposed to teach.


Before this, students could get high school diplomas without ever having taken algebra. Now you can't even pass 8th grade without it. So Massachusetts has risen to #1 in the USA in math. Science too is taught very early, and at the time of this article their 8th graders would have been #2 in the world.

Massachusetts has some very notable deficiencies seen aplenty right here on this forum: whining, excuse-making, and attacks on people that place high value on educational achievement.

In articles I am reading on their educational system, there is a notable lack of "entitlement" language that we see in our national discourse. High school diplomas are things individuals have to earn as opposed to being something everyone else is responsible for giving you.
 
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Per the NYT the U.S. placed 9th in math and 10th in science among 63 countries participating in TIMSS. The state of Massachusetts, if it were a country, would have placed 6th in math. So, Massachusetts is just inside the top 10 percent and the U.S. just inside the top 15 percent.

Different instruments, different results - TIMSS vs. rankings of workplace skills.

My state just abolished its exit exam. There is still mandatory testing but for now it is not a graduation requirement. Four HS math credits are required.
 
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Per the NYT the U.S. placed 9th in math and 10th in science among 63 countries participating in TIMSS. The state of Massachusetts, if it were a country, would have placed 6th in math. So, Massachusetts is just inside the top 10 percent and the U.S. just inside the top 15 percent.

Different instruments, different results.

We can count on your previous posting history to not ask why. Here's a hint: we do pretty good when we are being compared to Ghana and Saudi Arabia.

But when it is the OECD countries we are being compared to, we look pretty bad. So for homework, run along and look at the lists of TIMSS participants vs. the other tests being discussed here.


Beyond that, Wu from U. Melbourne wrote a paper on the qualitative differences in the tests that is kind of interesting and worth talking about but I have to go bid on a construction project down in McKinley park right now...
 
We can count on your previous posting history to not ask why.

Quote the posting history to which you allude and maybe I'll have a clue what you're talking about. Let's deal in facts vs. snide asides. It might be a worthwhile exercise. Thank you.

Here's a hint: we do pretty good when we are being compared to Ghana and Saudi Arabia.

So for homework, run along and look at the lists of TIMSS participants vs. the other tests being discussed here.

I already have. As I made clear, I was speaking about the NYT article to which you linked. Earlier I looked at other links. If you want to use one article to prove one point, and a different article to prove another, fair enough. I was addressing the NYT article to which you linked. I have no desire to belittle other posters or play the martyr due to a perception of persecution. Good luck on your bid.
 
Quote the posting history to which you allude and maybe I'll have a clue what you're talking about. Let's deal in facts vs. snide asides. It might be a worthwhile exercise. Thank you.

Why do you not pursue explaining the differential performance even after it is pointed out?

You made a comment that amounts to a suggestion the USA does great on one test and not so great on another - as if it were random variation or something not having to do with how poorly our educational system is doing relative to the right comparison group.

We do better against the third world countries in the TIMSS, which is what the NYT article is about - how well we do against Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Yemen, Oman, Kuwait, Ghana, etc.

We also do better when we are comparing 4th graders and 8th graders on the TIMSS instead of comparing scores at the end of high school like the OP is about. We aren't doing as badly at elementary and middle school.

The OP is about comparing us to first-world countries. It also evaluates scores at the end of the educational system - the final product - instead of somewhere in the beginning or middle.

The reason I looked at this test at all was because it got me state-by-state numbers instead of just the over-all US average. It also has some eye-opening data on performance by ethnic group. There is more than a hundred point difference between Asian Americans and African Americans.

I think it instructive that we do more poorly when we look at high school graduates vs. middle school or elementary school students. I would suggest a reason for that is the lower standards for a high school diploma in the USA.

States vary widely in their minimum standards and even within schools students can take very different curricular tracks and get the same high school diploma. I did the college prep track. The guys on the football team took things like "Postitive Thinking" (taught by the head football coach), "Independent Reading" (taught by the school stoner), "Consumer math" (Another football coach), etc.
 
We really do have a realistic idea of what it takes. We studied the pedagogy in these different countries and came away with the understanding it doesn't have a thing to do with pedagogy. It has to do with making it your priority and working at it every day.

So how do you propose to change the value system of the entire US Culture to make it Asian-like in this regard? You have to convince several hundred million people to adopt this new value system. How do you propose to achieve that change? Asian Americans account for only like 5% of the US population and aren't anywhere close to dominating the airwaves, the literature, etc. and the teaching in schools. You talk about failure of policy, but how do you remedy failure of values?

Also, what about the situation of different groups within the US -- e.g. how would you propose to eradicate the White/Black education gap, which is much bigger than the White/Asian one?
 
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So how do you propose to change the value system of the entire US Culture to make it Asian-like in this regard? You have to convince several hundred million people to adopt this new value system. How do you propose to achieve that change? Asian Americans account for only like 5% of the US population and aren't anywhere close to dominating the airwaves, the literature, etc. and the teaching in schools. You talk about failure of policy, but how do you remedy failure of values?

Also, what about the situation of different groups within the US -- e.g. how would you propose to eradicate the White/Black education gap, which is much bigger than the White/Asian one?

I am guessing that these are rhetorical questions. The only thing we are in charge of is our own kids, and it blows us away what we've been able to accomplish.

I don't think the culture at large is going to change until people become so alarmed about the future that they are personally motivated to action. It isn't going to be a sudden event like the sinking of the Lusitania or the bombing of Pearl Harbor. But it has to be equally grave to motivate equally vigorous response.

We see the infantilizing of kids on more than one plane simultaneously. It isn't just the intellectual retardation, but look at the Schadenfreude of people calling the police when kids are seen walking to the shopping center or even playing in their own parents' fenced front yard. The so-called Free Range movement is an attempt to turn back this infantilizing, but they are in the minority, and we do not see this changing anytime soon. We had it happen to us: Child protective services raided our home because we were publishing on a blog what we were doing in following this peer-reviewed early infant learning literature. We tried to hand it to the officers when they raided us, but they just gave us cold stares, like "what do you mean peer reviewed literature?"

In our case, we were rescued by our pediatrician who knew exactly what literature we were following and the law says that if our pediatrician approves, there is nothing they can do to you. But if she had not been there for us we would have been another media story of a family terrorized and broken apart for... teaching "too early".

So it isn't just that the culture's educational values are a problem, but that we are downright malicious against non-conformists. It seems to be getting worse, not better.

In the meantime, the great news for groups that make this their value is: we can kick the ass of just about anyone on the planet if we have a mind to. Nobody has a monopoly on hard work. It is the parents themselves that can make this decision and once they have - they will be surprised at what they are capable of.
 
Why do you not pursue explaining the differential performance even after it is pointed out?

Because based on your posting history I consider your question a trap, and I don't want to be subjected to a sneer campaign about how a "professional educator" is whining and making excuses for the education system. Besides, I made some comments about the OECD thing earlier.

You made a comment that amounts to a suggestion the USA does great on one test and not so great on another - as if it were random variation or something not having to do with how poorly our educational system is doing relative to the right comparison group.

You got all that from four words? Care to provide textual evidence supporting your theory on what my comment "amounts to"? You posted a NYT link, I read it, I noted the results were very different from the survey in the OP.

We do better against the third world countries in the TIMSS, which is what the NYT article is about - how well we do against Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Yemen, Oman, Kuwait, Ghana, etc.

Are you kidding me? The NYT article is not about the U.S. doing better than third world countries. It includes one paragraph about TIMSS, for context. And every OECD country (except Luxembourg) also participates in TIMSS, so TIMSS is not about how we fare against the third world. Unless you count Western Europe.

And Kuwait is a third world country?

We also do better when we are comparing 4th graders and 8th graders on the TIMSS instead of comparing scores at the end of high school like the OP is about.

As far as I can tell the OP counts 35-year-olds - people who may have been out of school longer than they were in it. Fortune does not define the terms "millennial" or "Gen Y" but references "people born since 1980."

I think it instructive that we do more poorly when we look at high school graduates vs. middle school or elementary school students. I would suggest a reason for that is the lower standards for a high school diploma in the USA.

Show me the evidence. I might agree with you.

States vary widely in their minimum standards and even within schools students can take very different curricular tracks and get the same high school diploma.

In my high school algebra has been required for eons, even for the football team. Four years of math are required. It's not considered a progressive state. But that's just one state.
 
I am guessing that these are rhetorical questions. The only thing we are in charge of is our own kids, and it blows us away what we've been able to accomplish.

I don't think the culture at large is going to change until people become so alarmed about the future that they are personally motivated to action. It isn't going to be a sudden event like the sinking of the Lusitania or the bombing of Pearl Harbor. But it has to be equally grave to motivate equally vigorous response.

We see the infantilizing of kids on more than one plane simultaneously. It isn't just the intellectual retardation, but look at the Schadenfreude of people calling the police when kids are seen walking to the shopping center or even playing in their own parents' fenced front yard. The so-called Free Range movement is an attempt to turn back this infantilizing, but they are in the minority, and we do not see this changing anytime soon. We had it happen to us: Child protective services raided our home because we were publishing on a blog what we were doing in following this peer-reviewed early infant learning literature. We tried to hand it to the officers when they raided us, but they just gave us cold stares, like "what do you mean peer reviewed literature?"

In our case, we were rescued by our pediatrician who knew exactly what literature we were following and the law says that if our pediatrician approves, there is nothing they can do to you. But if she had not been there for us we would have been another media story of a family terrorized and broken apart for... teaching "too early".

So it isn't just that the culture's educational values are a problem, but that we are downright malicious against non-conformists. It seems to be getting worse, not better.

In the meantime, the great news for groups that make this their value is: we can kick the ass of just about anyone on the planet if we have a mind to. Nobody has a monopoly on hard work. It is the parents themselves that can make this decision and once they have - they will be surprised at what they are capable of.

These questions where not rhetorical, but serious. If the deeper problem is a lack of values (and how are the politicians going to change if they don't value education themselves?!) for education, then that should be the place where effort should be principally aimed at. Maybe not everyone would be open to being convinced, but you said it won't happen overnight and if you can convince as many of those who are open as possible, that's that much for the succeeding generation to be that much closer to a full acceptance of such values. It's just that I could not see how to approach this task.

With regard to "infantilizing" kids, how much freedom can you go before you hit another extreme of neglect?

Also, do Asian-Americans get the hostile treatment you mention for their child-raising practices? (They might, and if so it would seem to count as a form of discrimination against them.)

And if it will take something extreme, maybe that means China needs to kick our butt good, since they have the values. Then we'll realize that "groups that make this their value ... can kick the ass of just about anyone on the planet".

Also, what specifically would it take to address the racial gaps?
 
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These questions where not rhetorical, but serious. If the deeper problem is a lack of values (and how are the politicians going to change if they don't value education themselves?!) for education, then that should be the place where effort should be principally aimed at. Maybe not everyone would be open to being convinced, but you said it won't happen overnight and if you can convince as many of those who are open as possible, that's that much for the succeeding generation to be that much closer to a full acceptance of such values. It's just that I could not see how to approach this task.

Me either. I see nothing on the horizon that is promising.

With regard to "infantilizing" kids, how much freedom can you go before you hit another extreme of neglect?

The Free Range movement isn't even daring to go back to the practices of my parents' generation of rural parenting so I hardly think this is an issue.

Alcoholics, addicts (prescription drugs and illegal), violent felons, child molesters, people with personality/character disorders or mental illness, morbidly obese families - these are far more serious issues in terms of child raising than parents who are making conscious, informed decisions about raising their children and choose to give them more freedom than "Helicopter" parents.


Also, do Asian-Americans get the hostile treatment you mention for their child-raising practices? (They might, and if so it would seem to count as a form of discrimination against them.)

We started before birth and are way out in front of even the Asian Americans. We were blogging. They tend to be private in their affairs. Likewise with our talented and gifted homeschool support group: it is a private discussion group and the vast majority of them have decided to keep very quiet about what they are doing because of the hostility they get. It seems you are allowed to say your kid is an honor student, but if they are ahead of their peers by years then you are a target.

I figure it is like being gay. Do the gay pride march instead of hiding in the closet. But at the same time be well aware there are malicious people who really dig Schadenfreude so don't let them get the best of you.

Also, what specifically would it take to address the racial gaps?

Don't know.
 
Until you read the TIMSS report Minoosh, you are not competent to discuss it. No, it is not true that all the OECD countries take it and even ones who do don't take all components. Just off the top of my head, Switzerland, France and Canada didn't take it at all; Belgium, Austria and a bunch of others only did 4th graders - there's more but I am not your research assistant that needs to correct you on things you don't even bother to read yourself.

I already told you about an academic paper that discusses the different formats of these tests and what countries tend to do better on which format. I am not going to spoon feed you that either.
 
We started before birth and are way out in front of even the Asian Americans. We were blogging. They tend to be private in their affairs. Likewise with our talented and gifted homeschool support group: it is a private discussion group and the vast majority of them have decided to keep very quiet about what they are doing because of the hostility they get. It seems you are allowed to say your kid is an honor student, but if they are ahead of their peers by years then you are a target.

I figure it is like being gay. Do the gay pride march instead of hiding in the closet. But at the same time be well aware there are malicious people who really dig Schadenfreude so don't let them get the best of you.

If you can go way ahead of even Asian-Americans then:

1. how did you do it, i.e. where did you get those values or whatever was required from?

2. If anyone can get there in theory, then it makes me very angry to think of just how much human potential the entire world is wasting right now. We talk about wanting to cybernetically, genetically enhance our species with technology when we haven't even managed to extract all the potential we have with our species as it is right now... Then even China, Japan, Korea, etc.'s education systems are defective, merely less defective than the US... But is this right, that anyone could do it, if they really wanted to?
 
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No, it is not true that all the OECD countries take it and even ones who do don't take all components.

I didn't say they all took it. I based my statement that they participated from a chart titled "TIMSS Participating Countries" on the National Center for Education Statistics website. I should have known better.

Meanwhile, can you address some of the questions I have asked? Why do you characterize the NYT article as being about how the U.S. fares against third world countries? Why do you call Kuwait a third world country? Why, after you cited my "previous posting history" did you ignore my request to quote that history?

Why, when you stated I was vehemently against home-schooling, did you ignore my request for evidence to back that up?

I don't know if you are creating straw men on purpose, or whether you sincerely believe I hold the positions you claim I do. That's certainly a possibility.
 
Maybe everyone has seen these all. I found the first amusing, the second poignant.

"Millennials in the Workplace Training Video"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sz0o9clVQu8

Millennials: We Suck and We're Sorry
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4IjTUxZORE

ETA: Just watched a Canadian clip on Boomers vs. Millennials. Obviously I'm not working today ;). It's a "care for 90-year-old mom and post on ISF" day.

If the premise is the U.S. primary school is good but everything falls apart in high school ... well, I'm in the schools, more or less as an institutionalized outsider (sub and tutor). I don't know if I'm getting unique insights, but the view is interesting. For one thing, I'm now the minority group.
 
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If you can go way ahead of even Asian-Americans then:

1. how did you do it, i.e. where did you get those values or whatever was required from?

My wife is Asian. I am a semi-retired professor. When my wife was pregnant, I just started reading peer-reviewed published literature on early infant learning. I had access through my university. You have to either pay for them, be a university student/professor, or possibly get them through a county library if they pay for subscriptions. These are science papers, not popular fluff. Experimental research.

We discovered that brain development started before birth so I sang the ABC song through her womb every day. Wow, when the first one came out his head snapped to look at me because I started singing that song in the delivery room.

After birth the literature said locomotor development was the key to explosive intellectual development. They call it the "Dawn of Active Thought". So it was a bunch of different physical exercises to get them in shape for sitting up on their own and getting ready for locomotion.

Then we did these walking exercises so that at just a few months old they were already capable of walking all over the place holding onto our fingers. Then they start mapping out the house, thinking about where they want to go and what they want to do, evaluating risk, etc. instead of staring stupidly up from a bassinette. They're already feeding themselves from a baby bottle months before other infants can, and manipulating objects in mature ways.

On the one hand it blew people away to see what they could do, but a lot would think that they can walk at 9-12 months anyway so what difference does it make by the time they are 18 years old graduating high school.

Well, the difference is that you keep on working instead of quitting, and the gap goes from five months to a year to two years and just by the time they are in kindergarten they are many, many years ahead of their cohorts in both intellectual and physical development.

Nothing new with the alphabet, but you just start it way earlier. As you start teaching reading, you make everything pertinent to their own environment because that is what their interests are. Once they have developed the capacity for phonics reading then just treat them as mini-adults and don't talk down to them like babies. They can handle much more mature content than we give them credit for. So our first can read the periodic table of elements and knows what it all means before kindergarten but he has never read a nursery rhyme with me. Probably with my wife, but not me.

Since they are ahead physically, the writing development can also occur much earlier. We dropped the ball a little bit in writing but he'll still be several years ahead by kindergarten. He is writing his own stories already. The younger child is further ahead in writing than the first was, but behind him in reading. Years ahead of his cohorts, but a little behind his brother at the same age.


2. If anyone can get there in theory, then it makes me very angry to think of just how much human potential the entire world is wasting right now. We talk about wanting to cybernetically, genetically enhance our species with technology when we haven't even managed to extract all the potential we have with our species as it is right now... Then even China, Japan, Korea, etc.'s education systems are defective, merely less defective than the US... But is this right, that anyone could do it, if they really wanted to?

Yes, anyone can do it. But people in the USA especially are absolutely fixated on making sure they don't grow up. I think it selfishness personally. Sure, it is fun to keep them as babies longer.

We had all kinds of malicious comments about how we were "ruining their childhood", "pushing them too hard", making them do things "before they were ready" and calls to Child Protective Services, hoping to have them taken away from us and have me put in jail.

Not from people who knew us directly - family, friends, neighbors, our pediatrician, and the authors of these papers. We wrote them directly and they were so warm and encouraging with us. They reviewed videos we sent and gave us more papers to read.

It was malicious people who saw the blog, or internet discussion board dolts, and they were happy to make ludicrous false statements to CPS to gin things up more, like saying I bought my wife from her parents against her will. When we were being interrogated we learned what kinds of idiotic statements people were making. They put us in separate rooms and interrogated us individually - a female state trooper with my wife and an absolute prick with IQ = 20 from CPS interrogating me.

When they left our house they were a little disappointed that my wife hadn't stated she disagreed with what we were doing so they didn't have me in handcuffs in the back of the police van. But as they left they said we were going to be required to have our first son evaluated for developmental delay. He was so far ahead of his peers that they wanted to see how far behind he was! The facility they were going to make us go to was a "private partner" of the state that profited off such things so it struck terror into us realizing we might be in the clutches of idiots with a conflict of interest.

So we immediately bought tickets for the first flights we could get out of the country and hid in a friend's house before our flight left. We didn't know that they had barged into our pediatrician's office thinking they were going to spring on her all this horrible stuff we were doing. She told them she knew all about it and there was nothing wrong with it - but by then we were already out of the country. They also called family members and people who knew us - and discovered that another CPS worker was actually a friend of ours, knew exactly what we were doing, and was by law required to report us if he thought it constituted abuse. Everyone backed us, but we were taking no chances when they left our house, so we fled the country.

When we knew the coast was clear and returned, I called the state early infant learning program to look for more resources. The woman on the phone told me flatly that she disagreed with what we were doing. They are accustomed to dealing with public assistance cases that have disabilities, not kids that are advanced. You would think that early infant learning personnel would be excited about advanced learning but instead they recoiled in contempt.

Looking back, maybe we should have known better than to make anything public because Karen Adolph at NYU and Phil Zelazo at McGill learned professionally how malicious people can be when they see children being raised differently from cultural norms and we were actively corresponding with them at the time. Dr. Adolph published a book chapter on that very thing and Dr. Zelazo had some very malicious things said about his early walking research work.

So this cultural bias against earlier development in children is a very serious thing - not something I made up or am whining about. Children are much more confident about themselves, accomplished, and satisfied when they are in so much better command of their faculties and know so much more about the world. We dumb them down as infants, toddlers, and pre-schoolers and then put them in these factories where having them sit still is the highest priority.

There isn't any need to genetically enhance them - holy Toledo they can be years more advanced just as they are, and all it takes is removing the desire to keep them retarded.
 
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So this cultural bias against earlier development in children is a very serious thing - not something I made up or am whining about. Children are much more confident about themselves, accomplished, and satisfied when they are in so much better command of their faculties and know so much more about the world. We dumb them down as infants, toddlers, and pre-schoolers and then put them in these factories where having them sit still is the highest priority.

And it seems that it's not just a mainstream US culture problem, if you have gotten ahead of even Asian-Americans and perhaps even ahead of Asia itself. Sounds like the cultural inadequacy may be global. On the other hand, you mention scientific studies as a source -- so some of this might not have been known before, and it may also be in part a matter of getting this knowledge disseminated to the widest possible base worldwide, not just cultural problems. (I.e. a combination of both)

If everyone were raised this way it seems we could shorten schooling periods and people would be graduating high school at 14, at least some starting families while in their later teens (like 18), or maybe 20, and actually being able to take care of them (which is something that most "teen moms/dads" can't do now and so why they're so heavily criticized.). Working age, age of consent, etc. could all be lowered significantly. With children being had at younger ages, they'd have their parents around that much longer. Multi-generation households could be even better, which means more accumulated wisdom to go down to the youngins, further enriching their education. Productive lifespan of citizens would be that much longer. And they'd perform much better than now intellectually which means we'd be making scientific and knowledge discoveries at a faster rate than ever, and we'd be on our way to the cosmos. Would that be a good summary of what nearly the entire population of H. sapiens is missing out on now?

There isn't any need to genetically enhance them - holy Toledo they can be years more advanced just as they are, and all it takes is removing the desire to keep them retarded.

Yes, that was my point. People want genetic enhancement and we haven't come close to tapping out the full potential of our species with its genetics as they are right now. Let's first figure out how to change our global culture to get our species' full potential tapped out 100% before we start thinking about genetic enhancements...

Also, the reason I was inquiring about racial gaps was this: suppose say I (White) were to marry and have kids with a Black woman. But Blacks score the lowest scores of already low-scoring America on those tests, and these kids would be half-Black. If I were to use your methods, would it be possible to get them all the way up past that racial gap and even up past Asians as you did, or would the factors creating the race gap, whatever they are, prevent it?
 
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And it seems that it's not just a mainstream US culture problem, if you have gotten ahead of even Asian-Americans and perhaps even ahead of Asia itself.

Burying them. But this is the first five years of a sixteen year event. We can blow it.


Productive lifespan of citizens would be that much longer. And they'd perform much better than now intellectually which means we'd be making scientific and knowledge discoveries at a faster rate than ever, and we'd be on our way to the cosmos. Would that be a good summary of what nearly the entire population of H. sapiens is missing out on now?

You mean millions more working instead of sucking their thumbs? Heaven forbid.

In the past, people we now call "children" were working, marrying, and held responsible as adults for the crimes they committed. Now all of the above are called child abuse.

It isn't that they can't handle any of the above, because they did just fine before. We can say the brain doesn't stop developing until we are in our 30's, but that doesn't mean we have to be children to our 30's.

I am not advocating marrying your kids at 13 or working in factories at age 11, but we need to stop infantilizing them.


Also, the reason I was inquiring about racial gaps was this: suppose say I (White) were to marry and have kids with a Black woman. But Blacks score the lowest scores of already low-scoring America on those tests, and these kids would be half-Black. If I were to use your methods, would it be possible to get them all the way up past that racial gap and even up past Asians as you did, or would the factors creating the race gap, whatever they are, prevent it?

There was literature on "African Precociousness", discussing how up through 15 months black African children beat white Americans on tests like Bayleys Scale of Infant Development.

It was proposed as genetic, but it is simply that their culture required them to walk earlier. They were doing the exercises I referred to above and learned to sit up, roll around, and walk far earlier than American babies so they also went through the Dawn of Active Thought earlier.

But in the USA there was no need for it, so there is no Black Precociousness observed in America.

In Finland, the parents teach their kids to read. They start school later, age 7, but show up already knowing how to read. If you stack so-called African precociousness on top of their parents teaching them how to read, they would be kindergarten age kids more than a year ahead of Asians.

There is nothing like starting a race with a big head start, just oozing with confidence and getting accolades for it. Compare that to starting behind, establishing a stigma, and being discouraged - which is the current state of affairs.

I have no idea how you would motivate parents to do this, but sure - blacks already proved scientifically they can beat the competition cold and all it takes is a cultural environment fostering that.
 
I'm sure a 1:1 adult-to-student ratio, made possible by semi-retired parents and/or guardians, can do much to bolster student achievement. Meanwhile, middle schools and high schools teachers may have more like a 1:150 ratio in their given subjects.

There are ways to mitigate this.
 
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Yeah, no reason to cut back on the five hours of television watched on average per day.

The early walking exercises paper published by Dr. Zelazo in Science took a whole three minutes per day. Dr. Adolph's work had a number of zero-time pro tips the Africans used like upright sitting instead of laying down.

How do Finland parents teach their kids to read without your excuses? I specifically gave two pre-school examples of really easy things for parents to do that take very little time and would put their kids at the top internationally by the time kindergarten starts.

We discovered that in Finland, the kids watch TV with subtitles. We thought that a great idea so when we watch movies together we use subtitles too. It's obvious to us how beneficial it is.

Our experience with Americans at large has been exactly this: you tell them about this amazing strategy that takes only minutes per day or no time at all and like the professional educator above, you get negative responses.

Instead of "Oh wow, really? Only three minutes a day?" You get excuses, shaming, guilt-tripping e.g. "pushing your kids too hard" etc.

Parents don't need a five year old that can read high school chemistry and cosmology. That's just what is possible. Having them read at first grade level instead of not reading at all by kindergarten would be extremely easy to do. By our experience, if you revealed to parents that they could graduate their six year old from Harvard in physics with three minutes a day of exercises, it wouldn't even register with them as something they would want to do. What is important to them is that the three minutes a day makes them different from other parents.

It's just so instructive to have a professional educator demonstrate what is up with the USA, and Karen Adolph's work on cross-cultural comparisons is really illuminating here.

She sent us some published work she did where parents from very different cultures watched through a one-way mirror what parents from another culture were doing with their kids. Universally, the parents from a different culture reacted with horror, wondering how the kids from the other culture could grow up to be functioning humans.

When a parent is self-motivated and approaches it from a science perspective then they are automatically open to using subtitles, spending three minutes a day on something, or having their kids sit upright instead of laying down. A professional educator would be thrilled at knowing simple tips that boost learning productivity markedly if that is what they were motivated for.

But what you get without that motivation is cultural inertia. They don't want to hear about doing anything differently. They're going to attack it.

The very fact you read scientific literature on early infant learning seems to frame you as a person using your kids as experimental lab rats. Who in their right minds would do something different from what everyone else around them is doing?

But other cultures have indeed managed to make decisions collectively to change what they are doing and become world leaders in education. How we can do it here - I just don't know.

Breaking through cultural inertia.
 
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Yeah, no reason to cut back on the five hours of television watched on average per day.
What are you talking about?

How do Finland parents teach their kids to read without your excuses?
What excuses?

It's just so instructive to have a professional educator demonstrate what is up with the USA ...
What have I demonstrated is up with the USA?

A professional educator would be thrilled at knowing simple tips that boost learning productivity markedly if that is what they were motivated for.
You don't have a clue what motivates me.

The very fact you read scientific literature on early infant learning seems to frame you as a person using your kids as experimental lab rats.
No, it's just you.

One more question. Why do you want to put your kid in school?
 
But other cultures have indeed managed to make decisions collectively to change what they are doing and become world leaders in education. How we can do it here - I just don't know.

Breaking through cultural inertia.

Yet you have implied you may have surpassed even other cultures. How did you manage to do that? If that's the case then there is the possibility of creating a culture that would, if implemented in even one country, would make that country a world leader in education which would make the "other cultures who have become world leaders in education" look like fools. (And that begs the question as to why those cultures have not achieved the levels you are claiming to have achieved. Why?)

Maybe if they could somehow realize we could graduate all our kids from highschool at 14 if we did this.
 
Burying them. But this is the first five years of a sixteen year event. We can blow it.




You mean millions more working instead of sucking their thumbs? Heaven forbid.

In the past, people we now call "children" were working, marrying, and held responsible as adults for the crimes they committed. Now all of the above are called child abuse.

It isn't that they can't handle any of the above, because they did just fine before. We can say the brain doesn't stop developing until we are in our 30's, but that doesn't mean we have to be children to our 30's.

I am not advocating marrying your kids at 13 or working in factories at age 11, but we need to stop infantilizing them.

Well if their development can be this accelerated and it were made part of common culture, why not marry at younger ages? Maybe not 13 but 15? Have kids at 18? If everyone averaged kids at 18, think of how many generations could be alive at any one time for the kids to even further enrich their education from (you can actually get all the way up to great-grandparents, or even more, with a strong first-world level human life expectancy of ~80 years.). And even if they're physically not up to to handling factory jobs at 11, they could be allowed to do like desk-based jobs or something, no?

There was literature on "African Precociousness", discussing how up through 15 months black African children beat white Americans on tests like Bayleys Scale of Infant Development.

It was proposed as genetic, but it is simply that their culture required them to walk earlier. They were doing the exercises I referred to above and learned to sit up, roll around, and walk far earlier than American babies so they also went through the Dawn of Active Thought earlier.

But in the USA there was no need for it, so there is no Black Precociousness observed in America.

In Finland, the parents teach their kids to read. They start school later, age 7, but show up already knowing how to read. If you stack so-called African precociousness on top of their parents teaching them how to read, they would be kindergarten age kids more than a year ahead of Asians.

There is nothing like starting a race with a big head start, just oozing with confidence and getting accolades for it. Compare that to starting behind, establishing a stigma, and being discouraged - which is the current state of affairs.

I have no idea how you would motivate parents to do this, but sure - blacks already proved scientifically they can beat the competition cold and all it takes is a cultural environment fostering that.

Eat your heart out, Stormfront. This also makes me think about critiques I've read of the "human rights" movement. In particular, that the way human rights is approached now leads to the imperialist-style promotion of "Western" types of values as being better, and the above shows that that is not always the case. One could imagine some do-goody "human rights activist" seeing this, crowing "child abuse" and then ending up actually causing harm to the people they wanted to try and help by getting a "change" through that ends up retarding their childhood development to "inferior" (yupp :) ) Western levels. (Wolfman has touched on things down this alley before here, I believe.) That doesn't mean I'm saying human rights itself is bad -- but the critiques I mentioned do not really say that either, it was more about the current way in which it's being gone about, and the culture and perspectives represented within the movement.
 
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