Merged Alec Baldwin fatally shoots crewmember on set of movie with prop gun

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Crazy Chainsaw said:
The Armour didn't know there were live rounds on set, it's normal, to find silent rounds on set, because BBs can stick inside the rounds.
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The armorer didn’t know there were live rounds on set! By God, you’ve cracked the case!! By the way, they weren’t just ‘on set’. They were on the cart where all of the guns and ammunition were stored.
 
Crazy Chainsaw said:
The Armour didn't know there were live rounds on set
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Yes man, that's the whole ******* problem.

it's normal, to find silent rounds on set, because BBs can stick inside the rounds.
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Right, and those rounds get a closer inspection (looking for drilled holes or the telltale fresh primer and bullet combo), but either way they get segregated from the rest of the prop ammo.

That is literally everything that we are talking about here. Look at the pics posted upthread of the ammo recovery from the Rust set. The dummies were in packing cases, all back of the casings facing up. The dummies were dimpled and brassy where the primer would be. The live rounds with their bright gray primers stuck out like a sore thumb. Just being an armorer, when she opened a box and glanced over the backs, every red flag in the world should have shot up on the first visual inspection.
 
Thermal said:
Yes man, that's the whole ******* problem.



Right, and those rounds get a closer inspection (looking for drilled holes or the telltale fresh primer and bullet combo), but either way they get segregated from the rest of the prop ammo.

That is literally everything that we are talking about here. Look at the pics posted upthread of the ammo recovery from the Rust set. The dummies were in packing cases, all back of the casings facing up. The dummies were dimpled and brassy where the primer would be. The live rounds with their bright gray primers stuck out like a sore thumb. Just being an armorer, when she opened a box and glanced over the backs, every red flag in the world should have shot up on the first visual inspection.
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How would you know the primers were not deactivated?
 
Crazy Chainsaw said:
How would you know the primers were not deactivated?
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It is literally the armorer's job to know everything about the guns and ammunition on the set. If the armorer does not know any particular detail about something they are responsible for that thing should not be used. By anybody. At all. Ever. Under any circumstances.
 
Steve said:
It is literally the armorer's job to know everything about the guns and ammunition on the set. If the armorer does not know any particular detail about something they are responsible for that thing should not be used. By anybody. At all. Ever. Under any circumstances.
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What I am asking you is how can you tell by looking at a bullet there is no Powder inside?

I can deactivate most primers easily plus I can make phoney primers.

Primers do not indicate if a round is live or a dummy.

I have seen dummies with un punched Silver primers.

I Think the should have Inventoried all the dummy rounds and kelpt a
photographic record on them, but they didn't.
 
Crazy Chainsaw said:
What I am asking you is how can you tell by looking at a bullet there is no Powder inside?

I can deactivate most primers easily plus I can make phoney primers.

Primers do not indicate if a round is live or a dummy.

I have seen dummies with un punched Silver primers.

I Think the should have Inventoried all the dummy rounds and kelpt a
photographic record on them, but they didn't.
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The dummy rounds used on Rust had no inert or otherwise phony primers. They had dimpled brass. There was no need on Rust to have dummy primers and none were found. If a round is found with a primer and bullet with an undrilled casing that doesn't rattle, it should be treated as a live round and be segregated from all others.

Do you work on movie sets too? Why do you handle these off the wall dummy rounds with fake primers?

Eta: why would you photograph and inventory dummy rounds, that cost a few cents each? There's no value to doing so, and high expense, with I guess giving each a serial number or similar ID number. This production already wasn't willing to pay for basic safety. Do you think someone is going to get paid to take pictures of hundreds of fake bullets?
 
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Crazy Chainsaw said:
What I am asking you is how can you tell by looking at a bullet there is no Powder inside?

I can deactivate most primers easily plus I can make phoney primers.

Primers do not indicate if a round is live or a dummy.

I have seen dummies with un punched Silver primers.

I Think the should have Inventoried all the dummy rounds and kelpt a
photographic record on them, but they didn't.
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First I take a revolver, and I shoot a blank. Then I know that revolver is functional. You then drop the hammer on each presumed dummy round with the barrel in a safe direction.

Small production, old west movie. This aint SPR or Rambo III levels of ammo we're talking about here. What could they possibly have, 1000 dummy rounds? You could knock that out in a few hours.


She knew there were live rounds on set. And she at one point, had live rounds and dummies on the same cart. If the above process wasn't appropriate before IT SURE AS HELL IS AFTER THAT. If she was told no you cannot do that, you send an email and text out to all producers and the directors saying, I HALT ANY FIREAM USAGE OF THIS PRODUCTION UNTIL WE MAKE A THROROUGH INVESTIGATION IGNORING THIS WILL PUT YOU IN SERIOUS JEOPARDY OF CIVIL AND CRIMINAL LIABILITY. And if they ignore that you email: I quit. Then you drive the half hour to the NM State PD HQ from there and report it.
 
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Crazy Chainsaw said:
What I am asking you is how can you tell by looking at a bullet there is no Powder inside?

I can deactivate most primers easily plus I can make phoney primers.

Primers do not indicate if a round is live or a dummy.

I have seen dummies with un punched Silver primers.

I Think the should have Inventoried all the dummy rounds and kelpt a
photographic record on them, but they didn't.
Click to expand...

I cannot tell. I have no interest in being able to tell. I don't even care if an armorer can tell. It should not be necessary to tell. If the armorer does not know and record the complete provenance of any ammunition on the set then such ammunition should be promptly removed, by the armorer, from that set and disposed of in a safe manner. And if any other person on that set uses ammunition for which the complete provenance is not known and recorded by the armorer then those persons are culpable for its misuse.
 
theprestige said:
You tell us.

In your expert opinion, what should Gutierrez have done, to make absolutely sure the things that looked like live rounds in her case of blanks and dummies weren't actually live rounds?
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Pulled the trigger and dropped the hammer on them.
 
I'm pretty sure with all these rattling self firing bullets roaming around free that we can't trust any ammunition and should revert to water pistols and screaming "BANG!"
 
Thermal said:
I'm pretty sure with all these rattling self firing bullets roaming around free that we can't trust any ammunition and should revert to water pistols and screaming "BANG!"
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TBH I would support legislation with something like:

It shall be considered reckless endangerment to use firearms capable of firing live ammunition in any situation where you will be intentionally pointing it at, or nearly at someone. For example filming and war reenacting. Firing pins should be absent, or modification made so they can only fire blanks.

With exception for self defense and sworn LEO's.

I'm sure lawyers could make it much more legally succinct.

Edited: added a clause at beginning.
 
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Jesus Christ, I just realized that no one anywhere can test for a dummy round by rattling, because what if it's a self firing bullet??? You could be the next Alec Baldwin if you check a dumny. We are so screwed. Don't even touch a bullet, or the sound of you asking the bullet if it is live might set it off. Sound sets off the self firing chemical reaction, as I have on good authority.
 
CC is trying to answer the question, "if Gutierrez did everything right, how could Hutchins have ended up dead?"

When really, the answer is "Gutierrez didn't do everything right, and did a lot of things wrong instead."
 
Crazy Chainsaw said:
What I am asking you is how can you tell by looking at a bullet there is no Powder inside?

I can deactivate most primers easily plus I can make phoney primers.

Primers do not indicate if a round is live or a dummy.

I have seen dummies with un punched Silver primers.

I Think the should have Inventoried all the dummy rounds and kelpt a
photographic record on them, but they didn't.
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No doubt the safety prodecures on this set were a FUBAR if ever there was one.
My main criticism of Baldwin is not so much he fired the shots, but as a producer and pretty much the driving force behind the film, he bears reponsilbity for the miserable safety prodecures. It happened on his watch, as the saying goes.
 
Thermal said:
The dummy rounds used on Rust had no inert or otherwise phony primers. They had dimpled brass. There was no need on Rust to have dummy primers and none were found. If a round is found with a primer and bullet with an undrilled casing that doesn't rattle, it should be treated as a live round and be segregated from all others.

Do you work on movie sets too? Why do you handle these off the wall dummy rounds with fake primers?

Eta: why would you photograph and inventory dummy rounds, that cost a few cents each? There's no value to doing so, and high expense, with I guess giving each a serial number or similar ID number. This production already wasn't willing to pay for basic safety. Do you think someone is going to get paid to take pictures of hundreds of fake bullets?
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Actually dummy rounds cost about 1.50 a piece, the ones with indented primers actually cost more because they can be used in scenes loading guns.
So if you snap the firing pin on those Dummy rounds you buy them.
Documention helps in determining loss.
 
lobosrul5 said:
First I take a revolver, and I shoot a blank. Then I know that revolver is functional. You then drop the hammer on each presumed dummy round with the barrel in a safe direction.

Small production, old west movie. This aint SPR or Rambo III levels of ammo we're talking about here. What could they possibly have, 1000 dummy rounds? You could knock that out in a few hours.


She knew there were live rounds on set. And she at one point, had live rounds and dummies on the same cart. If the above process wasn't appropriate before IT SURE AS HELL IS AFTER THAT. If she was told no you cannot do that, you send an email and text out to all producers and the directors saying, I HALT ANY FIREAM USAGE OF THIS PRODUCTION UNTIL WE MAKE A THROROUGH INVESTIGATION IGNORING THIS WILL PUT YOU IN SERIOUS JEOPARDY OF CIVIL AND CRIMINAL LIABILITY. And if they ignore that you email: I quit. Then you drive the half hour to the NM State PD HQ from there and report it.
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Yep and risk damaging and having to buy the gun.
 
Steve said:
I cannot tell. I have no interest in being able to tell. I don't even care if an armorer can tell. It should not be necessary to tell. If the armorer does not know and record the complete provenance of any ammunition on the set then such ammunition should be promptly removed, by the armorer, from that set and disposed of in a safe manner. And if any other person on that set uses ammunition for which the complete provenance is not known and recorded by the armorer then those persons are culpable for its misuse.
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I agree we don't know how the live rounds made it on set.
 
Thermal said:
Jesus Christ, I just realized that no one anywhere can test for a dummy round by rattling, because what if it's a self firing bullet??? You could be the next Alec Baldwin if you check a dumny. We are so screwed. Don't even touch a bullet, or the sound of you asking the bullet if it is live might set it off. Sound sets off the self firing chemical reaction, as I have on good authority.
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Most people don't cross contaminate Ammunition powders.
 
dudalb said:
No doubt the safety prodecures on this set were a FUBAR if ever there was one.
My main criticism of Baldwin is not so much he fired the shots, but as a producer and pretty much the driving force behind the film, he bears reponsilbity for the miserable safety prodecures. It happened on his watch, as the saying goes.
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Yes cutting corners and Rushing.
 
Crazy Chainsaw said:
Yes cutting corners and Rushing.
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Ba;diwn was the driving force behind the film.He bought the script and got it into production and found the partners necessary. It was his baby all along, he was calling the shots pretty much (no joke intended) and has to shoulder part of the blame.
 
whoanellie said:
The armorer didn’t know there were live rounds on set! By God, you’ve cracked the case!! By the way, they weren’t just ‘on set’. They were on the cart where all of the guns and ammunition were stored.
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And who hired this bozo in the first place?.
 
Crazy Chainsaw said:
Good policy but if the Rounds were Reloads that Means they came from Thell Reed's Reloads by Joe Swanson. Why is a dummy and Blank Manufacturer even doing reloading?
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I might be missing something but I watched the entire trial and I do not recall anyone saying the live rounds shot on the other set came from Joe Swanson. The only items sourced from JS in the testimony at trial were blanks and dummies that I recall. If JS was the source of live rounds used on the other set which witness provided this testimony?
 
Horhang said:
I might be missing something but I watched the entire trial and I do not recall anyone saying the live rounds shot on the other set came from Joe Swanson. The only items sourced from JS in the testimony at trial were blanks and dummies that I recall. If JS was the source of live rounds used on the other set which witness provided this testimony?
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GR in her Lawsuit against Seth Kenney,, Joe Sawnson even Texted to Seth Kenney he used TiteGroup gun powder in the rounds. While Kenney was being interviewed by police.
 
Crazy Chainsaw said:
Most people can read Jury instructions when talking about a Trial.
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No they can't. It's distracting to perform those intellectual tasks simultaneously. Not even getting into the fact that "most people" do not even have written jury instructions in front of them. That's like walking and chewing gum... wait, most people can actually do that...

You're in my head now.
 
dudalb said:
And who hired this bozo in the first place?.
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Gabrielle Pickle, who was hird by 3rd Shift Media, who were contracted by Rust Movie Production LLC, which was operated by Ryan Smith of Thomasville Pictures, to which Baldwin's Eldorado Pictures had previously sold the Rust rights.

If you're hoping the answer was Alec Baldwin...

“He didn’t actually have employees on-site that he or his delegated persons would manage or oversee,” said Lorenzo Montoya, OSHA’s lead investigator, in a deposition last month. Aside from his personal assistant, Montoya said, “He has no employee presence. He’s just him.”
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But the OSHA investigation laid ultimate management authority on producer Ryan Smith and his company, Rust Movie Prods. “Ryan Smith was identified as the boss by multiple people,” Montoya testified.
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https://variety.com/2023/film/news/alec-baldwin-rust-producer-da-osha-1235531157/
 
Thermal said:
No they can't. It's distracting to perform those intellectual tasks simultaneously. Not even getting into the fact that "most people" do not even have written jury instructions in front of them. That's like walking and chewing gum... wait, most people can actually do that...

You're in my head now.
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She was convicted of A Loading a gun and or B failing to do a safety check, anything else is Irrelevant.
 
Crazy Chainsaw said:
Actually dummy rounds cost about 1.50 a piece
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Calling bull **** on this, too. My very first hit online shows them at full retail for $19.75 for 25. That's $0.79 each. And that's without even shopping around.

https://www.perfectshotllc.com/product/45-long-colt-dummy-round-with-used-brass/

the ones with indented primers actually cost more because they can be used in scenes loading guns.
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Dude it's a ******* movie. They could refill the dimple holes with goddamned Play Doh and no one would know the difference.

So if you snap the firing pin on those Dummy rounds you buy them.
Documention helps in determining loss.
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Oh for Christ's sake, no you wouldn't. Snap the rounds and for those few close up shots refill the primer dimple. This **** is just not that complicated, and if it did threaten to ruin the movie, about 30 seconds of photoshopping primers back in during editing would handle it.
 
Actually, here's simple solution. Instead of having real bullet heads, have a plastic push in or screw in insert that can be pulled off and inspected to verify that there is no powder in the casing. Off you go.

Plastic bullet heads can be made super cheap in volume, and finished to pass for lead on the screen. seeing as hundreds are used even in these cheapy movies. Freaking done and done.
 
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