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AIPAC’s Mouth for War – Joe Lieberman

ZENSMACK89

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http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/004151.php
Lieberman: Can't We Invade Iran Yet?
By Spencer Ackerman - September 11, 2007,

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/06/11/1804/
Lieberman Urges Iran Air Strike
Associated Press staff
Monday, June 11, 2007

http://lieberman.senate.gov/newsroom/release.cfm?id=270526
Lieberman Speech to AIPAC National Policy Conference
March 2, 2007

http://www.shalomctr.org/node/1127
The Storm over the Israel Lobby
War, Peace, & the Jewish Community
By Michael Massing

http://www.wrmea.com/archives/July_2007/0707018.html
Elsewhere, pro-Israel PACs were actively playing catch-up. It’s no surprise that newly Independent (from the Democrats, anyway, if not from AIPAC) Sen. Joe Lieberman of Connecticut was the beneficiary of the most last-minute contributions from pro-Israel PACs, raking in an additional $65,093 for his race to retain his seat.
 
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You know, if the Jewish peace movemant was stronger, this really wouldn't be an issue. American Jews have just become completaly overwhelmed by right-wing nationalist views when it comes to the Middle East.
 
parky76 said:
You know, if the Jewish peace movemant was stronger, this really wouldn't be an issue. American Jews have just become completaly overwhelmed by right-wing nationalist views when it comes to the Middle East.
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So if it was Vietnam again or another part of the world is it's your contention that some American Jews would have a completely different view point on the war?

Why the hypocrisy?
 
ZENSMACK89 said:
So if it was Vietnam again or another part of the world is it's your contention that some American Jews would have a completely different view point on the war?

Why the hypocrisy?
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I don't think that's what he said at all. The right wing has pretty well taken over public opinion for the past eight years, Jews included, apparently. That right wing surge in opinion appears to be pretty well exhausted now.
 
a_unique_person said:
I don't think that's what he said at all. The right wing has pretty well taken over public opinion for the past eight years, Jews included, apparently. That right wing surge in opinion appears to be pretty well exhausted now.
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Well he did say "when it comes to the Middle East". I was just wondering if it was a different part of the world does he thing they would have a different view on it that's all.
 
parky76 said:
You know, if the Jewish peace movemant was stronger, this really wouldn't be an issue. American Jews have just become completaly overwhelmed by right-wing nationalist views when it comes to the Middle East.
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Parky, do you think American Jews can get us in a war with Iran?
 
ZENSMACK89 said:
So if it was Vietnam again or another part of the world is it's your contention that some American Jews would have a completely different view point on the war?

Why the hypocrisy?
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Jews for the most part were against the Vietnam War. The New Left leadership were made-up of Jews who’s parents were members of the Old Left (Communists).
 
I believe that when it comes to Middle East affairs, American Jews have been taken over by right wing ideas and theories. As to political affairs dealing with South America, East Asia, etc, I believe American Jews probably have views not significantly different then the rest of the population. But when it comes to things dealing with Arabs and Muslims, Jews have tunnel vision. "Arabs bad, Israel good" and "Is it good for the Jews?" is their overriding logic.

There is nothing wrong with Israelis wanting to put their country first. No one should expect them to do otherwise. But many American Jews act and think like they are expatriots from Israel, or are somehow embassador's for Israel's needs and causes.

This is not anti-Semitism talking. I am a Jew and was given a Jewish education till I was 13. I know what I was taught. And I was taught to view myself not as a American who just happens to be of the Jewish faith, but as a Jew who just happened to live in the USA, on our long journey from Jerusalem to Rome and eventually back to the Promised Land.

I was taught, again and again, that Gentile countries cannot be trusted with our survival, that even the most modern and tolerant of nations (i.e. Germany) can turn on us and we will have to flee once again. Based on the last 2,000 years, this logic seems to be correct, but I believe that the USA is different...but many Jews disagree and frankly how can I blaim them?

It is my humble belief that many Jews have taken "Is it good for the Jews?" one giant leap further and turned it into "If it is good for right-wing Jewish beliefs then we must convince American that it is good for America". Are these Jews capable of fairly evaluating whether what may be good for right-wing Jews is good for American interests? I don't know..and frankly I don't know if they would even care. Are those who hate the Jewish lobby capable of fairly evaluating whether they are not? I don't know either.

I only want the USA to be more even handed with Israel. I dont want the USA to abandon Israel. Those Jews (and Christians) who think the USA should just let Israel do whatever it wants are cleary biased and should not be allowed influence over our politicians.
 
parky76 said:
I believe that when it comes to Middle East affairs, American Jews have been taken over by right wing ideas and theories.
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Except that American Jews are actually more against the war in Iraq than Americans in general.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/...ontrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=1&listSrc=Y&art=1

"Jewish Americans are the most strongly opposed to the Iraq war" of all religious groups. Is this a surprise? Not really, but it is now semi-official, after a Gallup analysis of 13 surveys from the last two-plus years concluded that Jewish people oppose the Iraq war by a "better than 3-to-1 margin, 77 percent to 21 percent."

Gallup's data is not surprising because it is consistent with many other previous polls. Just look at this 2005 AJC poll: 70 percent of Jews disapprove of the war in Iraq. And in 2003, when most Americans still supported the war: 54 percent disapprove.


[...] Sixty-five percent of non-Democratic Jews oppose the war, compared with just 38 percent of non-Democrats of all other religious groups? These data show that the average American Jew -- even those who are Republicans and may support the Bush administration on other matters -- opposes the war.
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I have yet to see any major Jewish organization come out demanding an end to the war in Iraq. I never saw any Jewish organizations express extreme reservations about going into Iraq. I see no major Jewish organizations expressing reluctance to attack Iran. Please prove me wrong so I can sleep at night.
 
parky76 said:
I have yet to see any major Jewish organization come out demanding an end to the war in Iraq. I never saw any Jewish organizations express extreme reservations about going into Iraq. I see no major Jewish organizations expressing reluctance to attack Iran. Please prove me wrong so I can sleep at night.
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Again I think it gets into Right and Left wing politics. Not just American Right and Left wing but Israeli Right and Left. Now groups like AIPAC or especially PNAC are extreme right wing. These are the people with the power to change policy.

Now if you were to take a telephone poll of a few hundred American Jews you would probably get many American as well as Israeli left wing leaning types, liberals. Now I’m not Jewish so I could only hope what you are claiming isn’t accurate. I would hope most American Jews see themselves as American first and foremost. I don’t think that’s the case of some of the people in our Government though. By their actions I would say they are Pro-Israeli first even above the interests of America.

Now to get back to your point I do think it's safe to say what they would claim in an anonymous telephone poll and what they are publicly willing to speak out on are two different things. Because regardless of their position on Iraq I think more Jews were willing to speak out on something like say Vietnam then are stepping up and speaking out on this present conflict.

But just to be fair I did find this. It's a while ago but this group did speak out.

http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/publish/article_318.shtml

Though I guess being anti-war is specifically what this group does.
 
parky76 said:
I have yet to see any major Jewish organization come out demanding an end to the war in Iraq. I never saw any Jewish organizations express extreme reservations about going into Iraq. I see no major Jewish organizations expressing reluctance to attack Iran. Please prove me wrong so I can sleep at night.
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I saw plenty of individuals who are Jews expressing reservations and opposition.
 
MaGZ said:
I never believed this.

I think the Jews needed this poll to cover themselves.
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Maybe you need to look around you more.
The neo-cons are powerful at the moment and their members are prominent amongst Christians as well as Jews. Don't go thinking they represent everybody -- or even a majority.
 
Lieberman is just taking part in the "tough talk" approach to Iran. I'm surprised its taken all that seriously.
 
parky76 said:
I have yet to see any major Jewish organization come out demanding an end to the war in Iraq. I never saw any Jewish organizations express extreme reservations about going into Iraq. I see no major Jewish organizations expressing reluctance to attack Iran. Please prove me wrong so I can sleep at night.
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And you assume we are concerned over whether you sleep or not because..............?:D
 
If the majority of the American Jewish community is against the Iraq war, then why do all major Jewish orgnanizations push to support it? Why is AIPAC in favor of "the surge"?

Trust me, when the collective Jewish American community wants something done, they make it happen. If they wanted this war to end, we would all know it. Articles in the NY Times, billboards, TV and Radio ads, would be full of anti-war ads from Jewish organizations. But they aren't, now are they?
 
parky76 said:
If the majority of the American Jewish community is against the Iraq war, then why do all major Jewish orgnanizations push to support it? Why is AIPAC in favor of "the surge"?

Trust me, when the collective Jewish American community wants something done, they make it happen. If they wanted this war to end, we would all know it. Articles in the NY Times, billboards, TV and Radio ads, would be full of anti-war ads from Jewish organizations. But they aren't, now are they?
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IMHO, it's the extremists on both sides who set the agenda, and force 'wedge' politics into dividing what would otherwise be common ground between the majority. The moderates can be the majority, but they are moderate, so they don't go out there making as much noise or commotion.
 
MaGZ said:
I never believed this.

I think the Jews needed this poll to cover themselves.
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Which brings up the question of how one knows such things in the first place. On the one hand you have a polls which say Jews don't like this war. OK, you may or may not believe in polls, but what have you got on the other hand? What other information do you have that makes you affirmatively believe the opposite? Did the ghost of Hitler tell you otherwise in a dream?

Or is it that the polls prove the opposite of what they appear to say because the Jews need it to do so to cover themselves? That's the theory of nefarious-self-interest-constitutes-evidence-of-conspiracy.
 
parky76 said:
If the majority of the American Jewish community is against the Iraq war, then why do all major Jewish orgnanizations push to support it? Why is AIPAC in favor of "the surge"?
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Because the Jewish community is not a monolithic entity, and Jewish organizations are not democratic republics that answer to the community via popular vote.
 
ZENSMACK89 said:
Well he did say "when it comes to the Middle East". I was just wondering if it was a different part of the world does he thing they would have a different view on it that's all.
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Most likely due to better education on the topic than is typical.
 
ZENSMACK89 said:
Again I think it gets into Right and Left wing politics. Not just American Right and Left wing but Israeli Right and Left. Now groups like AIPAC or especially PNAC are extreme right wing. These are the people with the power to change policy.
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You are aware that PNAC is nothing more than a website these days, aren't you?
 
parky76 said:
If the majority of the American Jewish community is against the Iraq war, then why do all major Jewish orgnanizations push to support it? Why is AIPAC in favor of "the surge"?
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Because while the typical person may be against the war, they're also against an unstable Iraq falling into full-blown open civil war where the likely result will be millions dead and the very real possibility of a Taliban-style theocracy taking over and really destabilizing the area.
 
Mycroft said:
Because while the typical person may be against the war, they're also against an unstable Iraq falling into full-blown open civil war where the likely result will be millions dead and the very real possibility of a Taliban-style theocracy taking over and really destabilizing the area.
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What exactly do you call what's happening now in Iraq?
 
Mycroft said:
...the very real possibility of a Taliban-style theocracy taking over and really destabilizing the area.
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Funny. That's what is happening right at the moment. And it would not have happened if Bush had not mounted Iraq2 in the way he did.
 
parky76 said:
If the majority of the American Jewish community is against the Iraq war, then why do all major Jewish orgnanizations push to support it?
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The Union for Reform Judaism doesn't. They represent a large chunk of Jews in America.

Link
Link
Link

Trust me, when the collective Jewish American community wants something done, they make it happen.
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Like the rest of America, the Jewish community is divided on the War.

If they wanted this war to end, we would all know it. Articles in the NY Times, billboards, TV and Radio ads, would be full of anti-war ads from Jewish organizations.
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I think you assume a lot about the amount of money Jewish organizations have to spend on NY Times, billboard, tv and radio ads.
 
From the comprehensive and seemingly moderate Article in the OP:

http://www.shalomctr.org/node/1127

While pursuing its traditional concerns about Israel, the lobby in recent years has been steadily expanding its mission, becoming a strong force in the extended network of national security groups and leaders who have used September 11, the war on terror, and Israel as a basis for seeking a more aggressive US stance in the world. This is especially apparent in AIPAC's work on Iran. Since the mid-1990s, AIPAC has been devoting much of its energy to warning against Iran's development of nuclear weapons, to denouncing the mullahs in Tehran, and to seeking their overthrow. Mearsheimer and Walt place much emphasis on the lobby's support for war in Iraq, but AIPAC's work on Iran has had far more impact in Washington (assisted as it is by the aggressive rhetoric and actions of President Ahmadinejad). The network with which AIPAC is associated, it should be said, does not constitute any sort of conspiracy or cabal; its various parts and members work independently and often take positions at odds with one another. Still, it would be foolish to ignore the very real ways in which their activities tend to reinforce one another as they agitate for a more muscular US presence in the Middle East and beyond.
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I think we need a few Jewish Cindy Sheehans. If there was a real, consistant public Jewish face against the Iraq war and against attacking Iran, it would make this concept of a monolithic jewish attitude towards these issues more difficult to digest.
 
parky76 said:
I think we need a few Jewish Cindy Sheehans. If there was a real, consistant public Jewish face against the Iraq war and against attacking Iran, it would make this concept of a monolithic jewish attitude towards these issues more difficult to digest.
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I don't think that's a Jewish issue but rather a Pro-Israel
Issue. And the Pro-Israel Lobbies would be dumb if they
wouldn't try to get rid of their enemies with the help of
the US - of course, in a subtile way to avoid getting a
public target themselves.
 
parky76 said:
I think we need a few Jewish Cindy Sheehans. If there was a real, consistant public Jewish face against the Iraq war and against attacking Iran, it would make this concept of a monolithic jewish attitude towards these issues more difficult to digest.
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First off, what do you think Noam Chomsky is? And second, Sheehan is a nutjob. She's the last sort of person anyone in the antiwar movement should want representing them.
 
Gurdur said:
Funny. That's what is happening right at the moment.
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Please don't be obtuse. There is certainly a conflict there and you can label it a civil war if you want to, but understand that "civil war" is not an all or nothing condition.

The issue is not what label you can put on it but how much the violence would increase if we pulled out. Parsing the term "civil war" as though it meant something is only making a semantic argument. The important issue is what happens in the lives of those 25 million people.

Gurdur said:
And it would not have happened if Bush had not mounted Iraq2 in the way he did.
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For the record, I agree with you that going to war in Iraq was a terrible decision, and I was very much against it four and a half years ago when Bush/Cheney and the gang were all for it.

But we don't have a time machine and we don't have the option of undoing that decision. What we do have is the present and the future, and the decisions we can make to produce the best results going forward.
 
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