Afghan on trial for Christianity

[Nancarrow]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/world/south_asia/4823874.stm

An Afghan man is being tried in a court in the capital, Kabul, for converting from Islam to Christianity.
Abdul Rahman is charged with rejecting Islam and could face the death sentence under Sharia law unless he recants.

...

Words fail me. Thankfully the judge presiding on the case provides a cogent explanation.

"We will invite him again because the religion of Islam is one of tolerance. We will ask him if he has changed his mind. If so we will forgive him," the judge told the BBC on Monday.

So that's alright then.


To be completely fair, the article says that this is thought to be the first such case since the overthrow of the Taleban. So, hopefully, it's an opportunity for the Afghan government to think long and hard about their law, and change it. Well... maybe. Can't say I'm confident of that.


Maybe in five hundred years or so, Islam will be at the stage where clerics are simply trying to get evolution out of schools. Twould be nicer if they were at that stage today. (and even better if they, and we, were at that stage 200 years ago. and if I had ten million pounds.)

 

[Beerina]

To be completely fair, the article says that this is thought to be the first such case since the overthrow of the Taleban. So, hopefully, it's an opportunity for the Afghan government to think long and hard about their law, and change it.

Live by the populist sword, die by the populist sword. Does freedom actually mean something, or is it just an impediment to unrestricted rule by whoever can gain control in a democracy by briefly convincing 50.00001% of the voters that day to vote for him? Be careful how you answer, most of you. You'll be sawing off the arms of your own sacred cows if you're not paying attention.

...which I hope is the case because most sacred cows need sawing off.

 

[cyborg]

I think it's pretty rare to have a majority governement in any democracy.

 

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

You know, I make a sincere effort not to judge an entire region of the world but this kind of crap. Ed give me strength.

~~ Paul

 

[Nancarrow]

Live by the populist sword, die by the populist sword. Does freedom actually mean something, or is it just an impediment to unrestricted rule by whoever can gain control in a democracy by briefly convincing 50.00001% of the voters that day to vote for him? Be careful how you answer, most of you. You'll be sawing off the arms of your own sacred cows if you're not paying attention.

Cows don't have arms. I win!

Seriously though, why don't you just state your point of view clearly, rather than ask a convoluted question for which you seem to be angling for people to fall into some kind of trap so you can go Nelson Muntz on them? If your point is that democracy can sometimes lead to barbaric government policies... well sure, of course that's a pitfall. If that was your point. Damned if I know.

 

[zakur]

President Bush, November 2003:

Successful societies guarantee religious liberty -- the right to serve and honor God without fear of persecution. . . These vital principles are being applied in the nations of Afghanistan and Iraq. With the steady leadership of President Karzai, the people of Afghanistan are building a modern and peaceful government. Next month, 500 delegates will convene a national assembly in Kabul to approve a new Afghan constitution. The proposed draft would establish a bicameral parliament, set national elections next year, and recognize Afghanistan's Muslim identity, while protecting the rights of all citizens. . . . (Applause.)

Another "mission accomplished," I guess.

 

[Nancarrow]

Oh and the article further explains, that the protean constitution that Afghanistan currently has, makes it very difficult for the elected government to reform the legal system.

Basically it all comes down to the judges. Are they capable of basic humanity, or are they only capable of modes of (un)thought that would be unworthy even of lower primates?

 

[CapelDodger]

To be completely fair, the article says that this is thought to be the first such case since the overthrow of the Taleban. So, hopefully, it's an opportunity for the Afghan government to think long and hard about their law, and change it. Well... maybe. Can't say I'm confident of that.

Sadly, they have far more pressing problems. It would be a PR disaster for the Afghan government to change this law at this time. The idea that the (essentially Christian) coalition invasion is part of an anti-Islamic Christian plot would gain a lot of traction.

 

[CFLarsen]

From ABC:

Despite the overthrow of the fundamentalist Taliban government and the presence of 22,500 U.S. troops in Afghanistan, a man who converted to Christianity is being prosecuted in Kabul, and a judge said Sunday that if convicted, he faces the death penalty.

Relatives denounced him as a convert during a custody battle over his children, and he was arrested last month. The prosecutor says Rahman was found with a Bible.
...
Presiding judge Ansarullah Mawlazezadah tells ABC News a medical team was checking the defendant, since the team suspects insanity caused Rahman to reject Islam.

"We want to know that the doctors have given him a green light on his mental state, because he is not normal when he talks," says the judge.
...
Rahman's case contradicts Article 7 of Afghanistan's constitution, which assures that "the state shall abide by … the Universal Declaration of Human Rights." That declaration states that "everyone has the right to freedom of thought … to change his religion or belief."

However, the constitution also states that Islamic law takes precedence over secular law and international treaties. Furthermore, the supreme court of that country has the right to veto certain provisions and interpret compliance with such treaties.

Source

Let's see how much outrage there will be from the Muslim world about this blatant example of suppression of people's religious faith.

 

[Nancarrow]

CFLarsen: You know the answer. I know the answer. We all know the answer.

CapelDodger: Good point. Would hardly be the first time in human history, either, that a life has to be taken for PR purposes.

What a sh*tty species we are.

I'm off to get drunk.

 

[Nancarrow]

Presiding judge Ansarullah Mawlazezadah tells ABC News a medical team was checking the defendant, since the team suspects insanity caused Rahman to reject Islam.

Or, endlessly trying to see the bright side, maybe the medical team are trying to get him out of this cluster-rule8?

 

[CapelDodger]

What a sh*tty species we are.

I'll drink to that. (Some people drink to excess, I'll drink to anything.)

 

[Nex]

Or, endlessly trying to see the bright side, maybe the medical team are trying to get him out of this cluster-rule8?

Let's hope the bright side succeeds, then.

 

[shemp]

Does anyone have any good recipes for Sacred Cow?

 

[Kopji]

In Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism and Buddhism, apostasy is no longer an issue. Nowhere on earth in any state are there legal sanctions if any individual wishes to change from one of those religions; it is a matter of personal choice, and it has become axiomatic that ‘My conscience is my own’.

But in Muslim countries apostasy is far from a dead issue, as is shown by the fairly recent examples of those tried, imprisoned, forced into exile, or executed, in the Sudan, Egypt, Iran, Yemen, Pakistan, and elsewhere. Despite the oft-quoted Qur’anic plea for toleration, ‘There is no compulsion in religion’, all the major Muslim theologians have concluded that apostasy should be punishable by death. And the absence of any mention of apostasy in the penal codes of some Islamic countries in no way implies that a Muslim is free to leave his religion. In reality, the lacunae in the penal codes are filled by Islamic Law, as in the case of Muhammad Taha, executed for apostasy in the Sudan in 1985.

Islamic Human Rights Schemes are clearly not universal since they introduce specifically religious criteria into the political sphere. A Universal Islamic Declaration of Human Rights is an oxymoron. Such a declaration is either Universal or it is Islamic. All such Islamic schemes severely restrict and qualify the rights of individuals, particularly of women, non-Muslims, and those such as apostates who do not accept Islamic religious orthodoxy.

In Muslim countries apostasy is usually linked to the related charges of unbelief, blasphemy and heresy. However these charges, whether upheld or not, clearly contravene several articles in the UDHR of 1948, and the legally binding International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights [ICCPR] of 1966 to which 147 states are signatories. Article 18 of the ICCPR is very clear.

General comment No. 22, adopted by the UN Human Rights Commission at its 48th session (1993) declares:

Article 18 protects theistic, non-theistic and atheistic beliefs, as well as the right not to profess any religion or belief. The term ‘belief ’ and ‘religion’ are to be broadly construed.

We urge the Commission on Human Rights to call on all governments to bring their national legislation into conformity with those human rights instruments to which they are party, and to forbid fatwas or sermons preaching violence in the name of God, against those holding unorthodox opinions, or who have left a religion.

http://www.iheu.org/node/1040

http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/instree/b3ccpr.htm
http://www.ohchr.org/english/countries/ratification/4.htm

...

 

[Zep]

Huh. Tell it to the judge.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Nobody should have to pretend to hold a certain religious faith to avoid being murdered.

Then again if you aren't prepared to fake it just long enough to get out of an apostacy charge you are a candidate for a Darwin award anyway.

 

[b33fj3rky]

Nobody should have to pretend to hold a certain religious faith to avoid being murdered.

Then again if you aren't prepared to fake it just long enough to get out of an apostacy charge you are a candidate for a Darwin award anyway.

Now, I think that brings up an interesting point. Suppose you're an atheist, and you somehow get stuck in a situation where some religious fanatics are pointing guns at you, telling you, "Convert to our religion, or we'll kill you." Would you lie, and say that, suddenly, you believe in God, in order to escape with your life? Or would you rather tell the truth--you don't believe, and this isn't going to persuade you--and then die with your integrity intact?

 

[cyborg]

You tell the nice madmen whatever they want to hear.

 

[RandFan]

We will invite him again because the religion of Islam is one of tolerance. We will ask him if he has changed his mind. If so we will forgive him," the judge told the BBC on Monday.

Conform or die, tolerant.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

...

"...all the major muslim theologians?", which ones are those?

 

[RandFan]

Nobody should have to pretend to hold a certain religious faith to avoid being murdered.

Then again if you aren't prepared to fake it just long enough to get out of an apostacy charge you are a candidate for a Darwin award anyway.

But to be fair it isn't a momentary thing. This man must appear to be Muslim the rest of his life.

It raises an interesting question. Is there nothing worth dying for? We have the luxury to make these judgments because others believed that freedom was worth dying for. To hold these individuals in contempt and consider them stupid because they died for the cause of liberty or justice seems the height of arrogance?

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

But to be fair it isn't a momentary thing. This man must appear to be Muslim the rest of his life.

Only if he stays put. In his shoes I would tell the nice loonies whatever they wanted to hear until the court case was over and then do a runner.

It raises an interesting question. Is there nothing worth dying for? We have the luxury to make these judgments because others believed that freedom was worth dying for. To hold these individuals in contempt and consider them stupid because they died for the cause of liberty or justice seems the height of arrogance?

I don't hold people in contempt for doing something risky for a worthwhile cause. Doing something suicidal for a stupid cause, on the other hand...

 

[Nex]

Conform or die, tolerant.

It should be pointed out that the law involved here (death penalty to an Islamic apostate) is not Q'uranic -- nowhere in the Q'uran does it command a Muslim or Muslim state to kill an apostate. It comes from a hadith, a tradition. This is technically a cultural thing, not religious, and it is very true that the Islamic cultures of the Middle East are very intolerant IMO.

It may not make much difference to us in the West (Islamic culture vs. Islamic religion), but it is a big difference to Muslims, so I've been told.

Just my 2 cents.

Still, it's an atrocity in my eyes. Hopefully it will blow over and he'll be left to his own life again.

 

[Complexity]

This really has nothing to with christianity. A Muslim who became anything other than Muslim would face the same reaction.

 

[RCNelson]

Nex:
It should be pointed out that the law involved here (death penalty to an Islamic apostate) is not Q'uranic -- nowhere in the Q'uran does it command a Muslim or Muslim state to kill an apostate. It comes from a hadith, a tradition. This is technically a cultural thing, not religious, and it is very true that the Islamic cultures of the Middle East are very intolerant IMO.

It may not make much difference to us in the West (Islamic culture vs. Islamic religion), but it is a big difference to Muslims, so I've been told.

Hadith is NOT merely a cultural tradition.

The USC-MSA Compendium of Muslim Texts Sunnah and Hadith explains it as follows:

In M. M. Azami's Studies in Hadith Methodology and Literature, the following precise definition of a hadith is given,

According to Muhaddithiin [scholars of hadith -ed.] it stands for 'what was transmitted on the authority of the Prophet, his deeds, sayings, tacit approval, or description of his sifaat (features) meaning his physical appearance. However, physical appearance of the Prophet is not included in the definition used by the jurists.'

Thus hadith literature means the literature which consists of the narrations of the life of the Prophet and the things approved by him. However, the term was used sometimes in much broader sense to cover the narrations about the Companions [of the Prophet -ed.] and Successors [to the Companions -ed.] as well.

The difference between the Koran and hadith is that the Koran is exclusively the record of the voices in Mohammed's head that no one else could hear, and the hadith is mostly the record of what other people could witness about Mohammed's teachings and behavior. Both owe their origin to Mohammed, and both are the foundation stones of Islam.

 

[Nancarrow]

This really has nothing to with christianity. A Muslim who became anything other than Muslim would face the same reaction.

Yeah, I just copied the title of the news story as the title of my OP, but "Afghan on trial for renouncing Islam" would have been better. Or "Afghan facing execution for renouncing Islam" would have been even more descriptive.

 

[davefoc]

Now, I think that brings up an interesting point. Suppose you're an atheist, and you somehow get stuck in a situation where some religious fanatics are pointing guns at you, telling you, "Convert to our religion, or we'll kill you." Would you lie, and say that, suddenly, you believe in God, in order to escape with your life? Or would you rather tell the truth--you don't believe, and this isn't going to persuade you--and then die with your integrity intact?

This is a question that people like me have already contemplated. As far as I can remember back I was never had religious beliefs. I, and I suspect most people like me, have wondered how we would have made out during some of Christianity's less tolerant phases. For me, I have little doubt, I would have faked it. I have faked it to a limited degree most of my life so as to not hurt people's feelings. Faking it to keep from getting killed would have been a no-brainer decision.

It's for that reason, I am particularly appreciative of some of the early thinkers like Galileo (and maybe Randi today) that took personal risks to challenge church orthodoxy. Without those folks people like me (moderate cowards) might have never had the chance to openly discuss our thoughts and ideas about the universe.

 

[Nex]

Hadith is NOT merely a cultural tradition.[...]

I didn't say "merely" anything. I was trying to put it in a nutshell while relaying what was told to me by a practicing Muslimah, but I lost the meaning in the process. Sorry.