Adnan Syed - Serial / Undisclosed

Desert Fox said:
Don is a better suspect.
1. There is evidence that Hae said that she planned to meet Don right after school.
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What evidence. She was going to go to a wrestling match.

Desert Fox said:
2. It looks like his mother forged his time sheet for when the murder took place. This is supported by a number of current and former Lexotica employees who say that there are problems with it. Time between job sites (working at two stores) also seems to support that he was not working the times listed.
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Who are the Lexotica employees? Remember, Firedman Bob claimed to have called a Lenscrafters that was no longer open. He lied about that. Tell us who the others were who went on the record stating there were problems with the time sheet. In fact, the time sheets were found to be consistent with (then) practices of having separate employee numbers for separate locations.


Desert Fox said:
3. The police called to try to get in contact with him much earlier and he did not call them back until around 01:00 am. Based on some evidence on the body, that would have been soon after burying her. I think that Bob Ruff may have additional evidence of guilt that he is keeping under wraps. Get between the lines that he thinks it supports Don being the murder as well.
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Why oh why would Firedman Bob keep any evidence under wraps? These are the same people who leaked only partial documents, leaving out the parts which made Syed look bad. They were called on it when the MPIA file was obtained by some good citizens.

But most importantly, what evidence on the body indicates Hae was buried just before 1:00AM? Because that would be evidence the cops don't even have!
 
Ampulla of Vater said:
Why oh why would Firedman Bob keep any evidence under wraps? These are the same people who leaked only partial documents, leaving out the parts which made Syed look bad. They were called on it when the MPIA file was obtained by some good citizens.
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You do know that this is a skeptical board. . . . .I have no idea if he was fired or not but you just committed one of the classic logical fallacies.

It is called an "Ad hominem"
 
No, I don't argue with unsubstantiated stuff coming off of reddit.

Edit: One thing that people should consider is that while Jim Clemente might disagree with Bob Ruff on his conclusions on some cases, he does appear to respect him. That seems to show that Bob Ruff is a person of integrity.
 
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Desert Fox said:
No, I don't argue with unsubstantiated stuff coming off of reddit.

Edit: One thing that people should consider is that while Jim Clemente might disagree with Bob Ruff on his conclusions on some cases, he does appear to respect him. That seems to show that Bob Ruff is a person of integrity.
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Oh my, everything I wrote is substantiated in the police files or by provable events.

How about you substantiating your claims as I requested in post 241? http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11371699&postcount=241 This is a skeptics' forum. You aren't taken seriously if you can't back up your assertions.

You're going to have to do better than "We should believe what nobody#1 says because he has integrity because Jim Clemente appears to respect him." That is one of the silliest justifications I've read on this forum, especially considering some of the absolute ridiculous statements nobody#1 has made over the last 8 months.

Are you here just to sling fabricated statements you are unable to back up with real evidence or are you here for a legitimate discussion of the evidence?
 
Ampulla of Vater said:
Yes, you read wrong. I asked him to address the other evidence.



The fact that 3 separate witnesses overheard him ask Hae for a ride after school (opportunity), despite the fact that he had a car.

The fact that he told the cop he did not ask Hae for a ride.

The corroborating evidence from Jenn Pusateri and NHRN Kathy.

His possessiveness of Hae as described in her diary.

That he called Hae 3 times the night before she went missing and never called her again.

Etc. etc. etc...

His response was:



I do not consider that an answer.
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The problem is that the tower thing introduce reasonable doubt. He was convicted because of *all* evidence, not because the particular one you keep citing. And again, if the particular tower can communicate with phone over a long distance, and there was no other tower switch over, his presence at the park cannot be substantiated, which makes the case fall all over.

I am sorry, but witness are poor evidence by the way. No matter the numbers. Which is why you need corroborating evidence. If you don't have them, there is a well jolly reasonable doubt.

And that's enough.
 
Aepervius said:
I am sorry, but witness are poor evidence by the way. No matter the numbers. Which is why you need corroborating evidence. If you don't have them, there is a well jolly reasonable doubt.
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The only real witness is Jay of the ever changing stories. The judge himself basically pointed this out.
 
I think I should at least cover this. . . . .It is pretty clear that Ampulla of Vater has made serious mistakes in his post.

For example he/she writes
What evidence. She was going to go to a wrestling match.

There was no wresting latch though
http://www.ew.com/article/2015/08/24/5-key-finding-undisclosed-serial-adnan-syed
1. There was no wrestling match
Asia McClain may still be Syed’s ticket to freedom. On the premise that attorney Christina Gutierrez gave him ineffective counsel – failure to interview McClain as a potential witness and not looking into the possibility of a plea bargain – Maryland’s Court of Special Appeals recently gave Syed permission to reopen his appeal. However the former classmate’s claim that she was with Syed at the library until 2:40 p.m. seemingly didn’t help his alibi when Serial talked to Lee’s co-manager on the wrestling team, Summer, who recalled talking to Hae until around 2:50 or 3 p.m. about attending the Randallstown wrestling match that night. But, Undisclosed learned that Woodlawn High School didn’t have a wrestling match on Jan. 13 and that the Randallstown match was held the previous week. This means Summer’s recollection of the date is inaccurate, and Becky, a mutual friend of both Syed and Lee, would have been the last person to see Lee alive when she was heading to her car after school at 2:15 p.m.

Edit: Should add this
https://viewfromll2.com/2015/03/12/...car-was-not-written-on-the-day-of-the-murder/
The Woodlawn vs. Randallstown Wrestling Match was on January 5, 1999

Woodlawn High School could not have had a wrestling match against Randallstown High School on the day that Hae was murdered, because Woodlawn had already had their match against Randallstown the week before, on Tuesday, January 5, 1999:
sun-1-6-99-report-on-woodlawn-randallstown-match.png
 
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The heart of the case is Jay and his testimony is corroborated 3x, by knowing the location of the car, having told Jen before the body was discovered, and having told another friend before the body was discovered (I forget his name).

But since his post Serial interview he has changed his story yet again. I think 15+ years and changing stories will make Jay an easy target for the defense in a new trial, if it even gets that far. It's also a little fishy that Jen tried to give Jay an alibi for a time we know he was with Adnan, although she could just b e mis-remembering exact times.

The less credible Jay looks the more I would want to know how involved he was in the crime, the less I would be certain about sending Adnan to prison for life. I think the police went easy on Jay and got away with it because Adnan's defense was inept.

I still think Jay did it with Adnan but was potentially a lot more involved than his testimony states. Will be interesting to see how this all plays out now.
 
I'm talking about that old school friend or whatever Jay confessed to in a bar or something, if I'm remembering correctly its been a while.

Jay would have had to make up the murder story like....5 minutes after he found out Hae went missing, in time to tell Jen about the burial at 8 pm, and/or get her to lie to the police that he is indeed an accessory after the fact to murder, before he even knows what deal the police will give him, and it all has to conveniently match up with the other known evidence in the case...and the police have to have conveniently found the car just hours before they interview Jay despite spending the last month or whatever looking for it.

There's really no way Jay isn't involved in this murder.
 
From what I read, cops will sometimes leave a car in its original location to troll for those involved in a crime. In addition, in the neighborhood it was found, a car in as nice a condition as it was and unattended would likely have been broken into fairly quickly - certainly not taken something like a month. In addition, it seemed like he did not lead them to the location but it was more like meandered to. There are several Undisclosed podcasts which delve into the fact that the timelines are not as clear cut as you are trying to argue.

Look, I need to be clear here. I cautiously think that Adnan is not guilty but I am not certain. There is also the possibility that he certainly is guilty. I am as certain as can be that Jay's story is bovine excrement however.

I am also a little scared that we may be, assuming that Adnan is guilty but found not guilty, releasing a murderer without therapy back into the public. I am also scared that he has been radicalized in Islam with his time in prison.
 
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I do wish the whole interview was recorded, instead of just the "official" interview they entered into evidence. I think there's no excuse these days to not record and video tape every second a suspect/witness is talking in police custody.

The police not knowing the location of the car is partially corroborated by them sending out a notice to a completely separate department the same day of the interview asking for help locating it, and that it was still missing. It just gets really hard to believe Jay didn't know where the car was.
 
bagels said:
I do wish the whole interview was recorded, instead of just the "official" interview they entered into evidence. I think there's no excuse these days to not record and video tape every second a suspect/witness is talking in police custody.

The police not knowing the location of the car is partially corroborated by them sending out a notice to a completely separate department the same day of the interview asking for help locating it, and that it was still missing. It just gets really hard to believe Jay didn't know where the car was.
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I don't have all the answers, I mostly have ideas. James Randi is famous for arguing that one should not take too much stock in things that appear to be amazing coincidences. With millions of events all happening in our lives, there are going to be amazing coincidences.

Interestingly, I know how little we should accept what he says, but he said that in the location it was found, he would find it eventually. It is in effect in his personal stomping grounds.

I would argue that it is interesting how his stories seem to indicate that he and Adnan are in the same car but yet it should have been Jay driving Adnan's car and Adnan driving Hae's car. In addition, he has this big story involving shovels yet odds are she was buried in what was probably a natural hollow and just basically covered with loose soil and debris. Odds are high that shovels were never used.
 
Desert Fox said:
I think I should at least cover this. . . . .It is pretty clear that Ampulla of Vater has made serious mistakes in his post.

For example he/she writes
What evidence. She was going to go to a wrestling match.

There was no wresting latch though
http://www.ew.com/article/2015/08/24/5-key-finding-undisclosed-serial-adnan-syed
1. There was no wrestling match
Asia McClain may still be Syed’s ticket to freedom. On the premise that attorney Christina Gutierrez gave him ineffective counsel – failure to interview McClain as a potential witness and not looking into the possibility of a plea bargain – Maryland’s Court of Special Appeals recently gave Syed permission to reopen his appeal. However the former classmate’s claim that she was with Syed at the library until 2:40 p.m. seemingly didn’t help his alibi when Serial talked to Lee’s co-manager on the wrestling team, Summer, who recalled talking to Hae until around 2:50 or 3 p.m. about attending the Randallstown wrestling match that night. But, Undisclosed learned that Woodlawn High School didn’t have a wrestling match on Jan. 13 and that the Randallstown match was held the previous week. This means Summer’s recollection of the date is inaccurate, and Becky, a mutual friend of both Syed and Lee, would have been the last person to see Lee alive when she was heading to her car after school at 2:15 p.m.

Edit: Should add this
https://viewfromll2.com/2015/03/12/...car-was-not-written-on-the-day-of-the-murder/
The Woodlawn vs. Randallstown Wrestling Match was on January 5, 1999

Woodlawn High School could not have had a wrestling match against Randallstown High School on the day that Hae was murdered, because Woodlawn had already had their match against Randallstown the week before, on Tuesday, January 5, 1999:
[qimg]https://viewfromll2.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/sun-1-6-99-report-on-woodlawn-randallstown-match.png?w=584[/qimg]
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She was the manager of the wrestling team. She went to all the matches, regardless of who they were against.
 
bagels said:
I'm talking about that old school friend or whatever Jay confessed to in a bar or something, if I'm remembering correctly its been a while.

Jay would have had to make up the murder story like....5 minutes after he found out Hae went missing, in time to tell Jen about the burial at 8 pm, and/or get her to lie to the police that he is indeed an accessory after the fact to murder, before he even knows what deal the police will give him, and it all has to conveniently match up with the other known evidence in the case...and the police have to have conveniently found the car just hours before they interview Jay despite spending the last month or whatever looking for it.

There's really no way Jay isn't involved in this murder.
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This is important because of those, such as DF who claim the police knew the car was there for some time. In the MPIA, there are documents showing the detectives were trying to obtain a helicopter to fly over and look for the car just a couple days prior to them contacting Jenn and asking her to come down to the station to talk to them.

Of course we know how it went after that: Jenn subsequently went to Jay and asked, "What am I supposed to do? They want to question me." Jay told her to tell them the truth and send them to him.

The point being the detectives did not know where Hae's car was until Jay led them to it. There is corroborating evidence for that in the MPIA file. It is a talking point for those attempting to get a killer out of prison.
 
Ampulla of Vater said:
She was the manager of the wrestling team. She went to all the matches, regardless of who they were against.
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According to the View from LL2, there was no listing for Woodlawn having a wrestling match in the Baltimore Sun for January 13th. They do however have a listing for for Randallstown playing Carver January 13th. In addition, Woodlawn had a match against Loch Raven January 12th. High school wrestling teams rarely will have matches two days in a row. If there was a match, it was unreported. The best documented evidence is that there simply was no match that day.
sun-1-13-99-wrestling-schedle1.png
 
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Desert Fox said:
According to the View from LL2, there was no listing for Woodlawn having a wrestling match in the Baltimore Sun for January 13th. They do however have a listing for for Randallstown playing Carver January 13th. In addition, Woodlawn had a match against Loch Raven January 12th. High school wrestling teams rarely will have matches two days in a row. If there was a match, it was unreported. The best documented evidence is that there simply was no match that day.
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Lack of documentation does not mean it didn't happen.

But you are really getting bogged down in minutiae here. How much of the MPIA have you read, or have you been getting most of your information from LL2? That is a highly biased source for evidence. It is best to not use sources with an agenda, and to do your own investigating.
 
Ampulla of Vater said:
Lack of documentation does not mean it didn't happen.

But you are really getting bogged down in minutiae here. How much of the MPIA have you read, or have you been getting most of your information from LL2? That is a highly biased source for evidence. It is best to not use sources with an agenda, and to do your own investigating.
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Again, an Ad Hominem.

I was in junior high soccer, high school ski, and high school track teams. . . .Never was a star to be honest. I also competed in karate outside of school.

That I can recall, it has been decades, there were never back to back meets. Maybe there were some but they are extremely rare.

The reasoning is simply if you think about it for a few moments, and it is something that Susan Simpson may not realize, that you need a few days to recover from each competition. In a match, you will push yourself harder than you do on day to day training.

I also recall a few things from the wrestling team in my high school. My physics teacher was also the wrestling coach. I remember that they were always fighting to reduce their weight slightly before each match. That will also take a toll.

As such, since there was a match the day before, it is incredibly unlikely that there was a match that day. Couple that with there being no record of there being a match that day, I would make it a virtual certainty that there was no wrestling match that day. I trust documentary evidence before I trust eye witness evidence.
 
I thought the timeline of the crime was tied down by the cousin pickup? She has to pick up her young cousin after school, which let out at 3 or whatever, she never did, ergo the crime happened before then? Don't see how a wrestling match would factor into it.
 
bagels said:
I thought the timeline of the crime was tied down by the cousin pickup? She has to pick up her young cousin after school, which let out at 3 or whatever, she never did, ergo the crime happened before then? Don't see how a wrestling match would factor into it.
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Being that it is more or less documented, that would appear to be solid. Now, she could have been with somebody and lost track of the time. Obviously though, she was indisposed for that time frame though.

The trouble of course is with conflicting eye witnesses, things get extremely complicated. If Becky is correct about Hae leaving school at 1415 and Asia about Adnan being in the library until 1440, I don't see how Adnan could have been involved in Hae's murder.
 
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Desert Fox said:
Being that it is more or less documented, that would appear to be solid. Now, she could have been with somebody and lost track of the time. Obviously though, she was indisposed for that time frame though.

The trouble of course is with conflicting eye witnesses, things get extremely complicated. If Becky is correct about Hae leaving school at 1415 and Asia about Adnan being in the library until 1440, I don't see how Adnan could have been involved in Hae's murder.
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Except Asia herself stated she has memory problems, so she doesn't make such a good witness. She also said she specifically remembered that day because it snowed. She goes into great detail about how she remembered conning her mother into more time at her boyfriend's house and how she used the snow as an excuse. Whoops, it didn't snow that day.
 
Ampulla of Vater said:
Except Asia herself stated she has memory problems, so she doesn't make such a good witness. She also said she specifically remembered that day because it snowed. She goes into great detail about how she remembered conning her mother into more time at her boyfriend's house and how she used the snow as an excuse. Whoops, it didn't snow that day.
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It is interesting how people who went to the hearing did not report that. . . . .
 
You seem completely and utterly convinced of guilt no matter what. You could likely find DNA of another suspect and youi would still be convince of guilt.

We saw that with the cell phone evidence. There are huge number of articles which indicate that cell phone evidence is simply not as reliable as prosecutors have tried to argue. . . .You breezily ignore all of that.

There are still people convinced that Amanda Knox is guilty, thee are still people convinced that the Norfolk Four are guilty, there are still people who are convinced that David Camm is guilty.

I am not convinced that Adnan Syed is innocent. I do not believe that he is guilty but I accept that he could be. That you will not waver in the light of any evidence makes me just a bit skeptical about your statements.

Your use of Ad Hominems shows that you also do not want to argue from substance.
 
I have seen in plenty of clear cases of innocence for the state to appeal an overturned verdict. It is far more common for the prosecution to try than to allow it to go back to retrial.

Now I am sure that AoV has some funny name or insults for Colon Miller but he has pointed out multiple legal precedents which makes the overturned conviction not likely to be reinstated including a very recent US Supreme Court case.
 
Friend of the Court Brief in 2018

"Amici are the Maryland Criminal Defense Attorneys' Association (MCDAA),1 the Maryland Office of the Public Defender (OPD),2..." Link

A quick reading of this document indicates that these organizations thought that not following up a possible non-family alibi witness was a serious error. My understanding is that a new trial was denied 4-3 by the Maryland Court of Appeals.
 
Chris_Halkides said:
"Amici are the Maryland Criminal Defense Attorneys' Association (MCDAA),1 the Maryland Office of the Public Defender (OPD),2..." Link

A quick reading of this document indicates that these organizations thought that not following up a possible non-family alibi witness was a serious error. My understanding is that a new trial was denied 4-3 by the Maryland Court of Appeals.
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You are correct. It didn’t make it past the second prong of Strickland - that it would have changed the outcome of the trial. There was enough other evidence, thus rendering Asia McClain and her story worthless, so to speak.

Here is the police file, obtained via MPIA.
And here is part 2 which are the pictures, minus the excavation of her body. I have those, but we decided it best to attempt to keep them off the internet.
 
I listened to the Serial podcast a while back, and while it was a really interesting story, over time I began to think that the podcast creators were determined to clutch at any straw they could find. "It wasn't possible to get from point A to point B in time." - the podcasters timed themselves and were disappointed to find that, yes, it was possible. I know, this expert on police interrogations can shed some light on the confirmation biases that investigators tend to have. Oh, he looked it at and said it was a surprisingly good investigation. Okay, let's try and throw dirt on the whole idea that we can ever remember clearly anything about the past, but at the same time let's make one girl's memory of seeing the accused the centrepiece bit of evidence for claiming Adnan is innocent.

On the other side of the ledger is...erm...Adnan's guilty plea. That makes things tricky to start with. But more so there are Jay and Jenn's testimonies which not only explicitly incriminate Adnan but also come with actual knowledge about the crime itself. It's been a while since I listened, but didn't Jay say he knew where they had parked Hae Min's car, and where the car was found. That's pretty solid evidence for thinking that Jay is reliable. Weren't there a number of disturbing incidents (things said by Adnan etc...) that seemed to indicate Adnan might have wanted to harm Hae Min?

Please feel free to correct any points I have made. It was a while ago since I listened to the Serial podcast, and as I think they said, memory is unreliable.
 
Yes, Jay knowing where the car was is a problem for Syed. Of course his cheerleaders claim the detectives told him where it was. The problem with that is in the police file, you can see how they were desperately searching for the vehicle, including hiring a helicopter.

Many people put Jay with Syed for most of the day, which is also a problem for Syed, because the whole “Jay did it by himself” claim does not hold water.

Hae’s diary contained a few entries regarding Syed’s possessiveness and there was some testimony from friends that he showed up at times when Hae was with the girls at a girls function. Apparently he couldn’t stand her having time without him.

It is extremely unlikely Syed did not do this murder. It is sad to me that so many people have been duped into thinking he is wrongfully convicted. There are plenty of people who have been wrongfully convicted who would better deserve the attention, the donations and the court’s time.
 
Yes, I have just been skimming through that police report. Indeed, I can see that the police's interest in finding the car is one of the main strands of the investigation.

Nothing.
Nothing.
Nothing.
Met with Jennifer.
Met with Wilds.
Boom... they find the car and a description of the murder.

The 27th February file is really instructive.

Adnan Syed is totally and obviously guilty.
 
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