A world without marriage

[quixotecoyote]

I wonder how much of the minimization of problems in Mosuo culture comes from the smaller scope of the society. Do you think it could it hold together under the economic/social conditions necessary for a large nation?

 

[Wolfman]

I don't think I can give an absolute, quantifiable answer to that question; however, I'd like to point out that other Chinese minorities who live in the same region, have similar populations, and face similar living circumstances, but do not share the Mosuo culture, tend to have much the same problems that I discussed above.

There are several other minorities in the same area, including the Yi, the Pumi, and the Naxi. The Yi and Pumi, in particular, are more 'traditional' patriarchal cultures, that practice marriage, etc. Anthropological studies that have compared these different groups have tended to show that rates of abuse are higher, and social stability (especially for children) is much lower, in these other minorities, than among the Mosuo.

I don't think its a terribly wild claim to suppose that a culture in which men and women never share/combine property, there will be less fighting/trauma over division of that property when they split. Or that in a culture where the mother's family bears sole responsibility for her children, that the separation of the parents will be less traumatic for the child.

However, transplanting such practices into our own culture is an entirely different affair. For example, among the Mosuo, an individual doesn't really own property or money...instead, everything belongs to the family as a whole, and the matriarch of the family determines how it is divided or used. In Western culture, by contrast, we tend to put significant emphasis on individual ownership and control of property. When I get a job, and make money, that money is my money...I don't just give it all to my family, and let my grandmother decide how to use it.

Changing this within our own cultures would require not only significant cultural changes, but also shifts in our legal system, and perceptions of ownership of property. The Mosuo would consider it ludicrous to 'demand' that a father provide money for his child's upbringing; but would likewise consider it completely unacceptable for a brother to refuse to give money to help raise his sister's child. So among the Mosuo, if one were to sue for child support, you'd sue your brother, not the child's father (I am speaking hypothetically, if we were to transfer this to our own culture...the Mosuo don't actually do this themselves). A "deadbeat dad" would be a brother or uncle who made money, but refused to give it to the family; whereas the biological father would never be expected to contribute a cent.

I think it would be fascinating to consider the ramifications if we did try to institute such changes; but that belongs more in the realm of fiction/fantasy than of reality.

 

[quixotecoyote]

I wasn't suggesting to try transplanting their culture. i have my own cultural, filters of course, but in most instances I accept the value of preserving exsisting cultures when they don't impinge on mine.

My thought go more along the lines of how the society would adapt to an expanding population. Let's say that for some reason, tomorrow the rest of China finds the Mosuo culture irresistable and adopts their practices wholesale. Could the culture survive intact or would massive internal change occur leading to their social norms becoming more similiar to those most of us are familiar with.

At a cursory glance I'd say that it could make the transition. I've often argued with people claiming the superiority of a pre-agricutural tribal culture (I realise the Kosuo are not pre-agricultural or particularly tribal) that the unique aspects of that culture they find preferable would not scale up, and their disapperance was the natural extension of the growth of the population.

I'm not seeing that here. Certain things would become much more difficult. Who you were and were not related to would probably require an electronic database as the possible relative combiniations would surpass the limits of a matriarch's memory. The STD issue has already been brought up, presenting a challenge to a large population that could not effectively isolate itself from disease as in the status quo.

On the other hand the problems with cultural role of men would resolve itself with a much wider variety of roles to fill.

Wasn't taking a position. It's just interesting to mull over.

 

[The Atheist]

Fascinating stuff, Wolfman, certainly exactly the type of thing we should talk about more of here - it is an educational foundation after all.

My question concerns whether you might be doing more harm than good.

By promoting the wonderful lifestyle of the Mosuo, you may encourage further tourism and exploitation, which appears to be well entrenched already. I can't see any way that the culture will stand up to this type of exploitation, and while I doubt you're there for the profit, you might end up encouraging the death of the very thing you're working to preserve.

Comments?

 

[Wolfman]

I wasn't suggesting to try transplanting their culture. i have my own cultural, filters of course, but in most instances I accept the value of preserving exsisting cultures when they don't impinge on mine.

My thought go more along the lines of how the society would adapt to an expanding population. Let's say that for some reason, tomorrow the rest of China finds the Mosuo culture irresistable and adopts their practices wholesale. Could the culture survive intact or would massive internal change occur leading to their social norms becoming more similiar to those most of us are familiar with.

At a cursory glance I'd say that it could make the transition. I've often argued with people claiming the superiority of a pre-agricutural tribal culture (I realise the Kosuo are not pre-agricultural or particularly tribal) that the unique aspects of that culture they find preferable would not scale up, and their disapperance was the natural extension of the growth of the population.

I'm not seeing that here. Certain things would become much more difficult. Who you were and were not related to would probably require an electronic database as the possible relative combiniations would surpass the limits of a matriarch's memory. The STD issue has already been brought up, presenting a challenge to a large population that could not effectively isolate itself from disease as in the status quo.

On the other hand the problems with cultural role of men would resolve itself with a much wider variety of roles to fill.

Wasn't taking a position. It's just interesting to mull over.

Well...given that all of this is purely hypothetical...I'll give a few of my own responses/thoughts on the subject.

First, cultures change and evolve. This is a simple fact of life. Exposure to other cultures, changes in economic/political situation, or many other such factors all serve to change cultures. As mentioned previously, the Mosuo culture has itself gone through very significant changes, particularly the change from a feudal system with nobility and peasants (and one where nobility were patriarchal and peasants were matriarchal), to a more egalitarian system where they are mostly matriarchal, and roughly equal in status.

So I don't think that it would be logical to argue that under any situation, the Mosuo culture would stay the same. It is going to change and evolve. As all cultures do.

Given that, there is still the issue of whether a culture, as it changes, retains unique traits of its past culture; or if it changes so radically that there is little/no similarity between the current and past cultures.

Now, lets assume a slightly modified version of your hypothesis...for example, some terrible plague hits China, killing most of the Han Chinese majority. The Mosuo, relatively unaffected, now have the opportunity to grow rapidly, and expand throughout China. Over a period of several hundred years, they do just that, increasing exponentially in size as they do so.

Given such a situation, I do think that it would still be quite reasonable to assume that they'd be able to maintain many of the more unique aspects of their culture; by that, I mean that there would not implicitly be anything that would require them to abandon such practices, or make them impractical. I think that the idea of walking marriages, or having children reared by the mother's family, would be among the traits most likely/feasible to survive, also.

However, given human nature, I think that some changes would also be inevitable. Economic development -- ie. greater individual wealth -- always seems to lead towards a sense of greater individual independence. When nobody has much, and sharing is necessary, then it is easy to sacrifice individual ownership in favor of the group. But when you know that you have more than enough money to survive on your own, and that everyone else in the family has more than enough money to survive on their own, then the need for such 'communal property' disappears almost entirely, and you are very likely to develop a cultural sense of individual ownership and independence. I believe that this principle is fairly well reflected in pretty much every culture on the planet that has gone through such an economic transition.

So, assuming that the Mosuo not only increased in population size, but also in economic wealth, I think that you'd see the larger extended families decreasing in size, and smaller nuclear families becoming more common. As that happened, you'd also then face the issue of mothers now having to care for children by themselves, or with the help of only a few family members, rather than being able to rely on the larger family structure that currently exists. Of course, one possibility would be to put legislation in place that codified a brother's/uncle's responsibilities to provide assistance for their sisters/nieces (the mirror of our own legislation mandating the same thing for the biological father of a child).

But in the end...no, I do not think that this system would last long-term in a large-scale, developed society. Aspects of it would survive, yes. But certain changes and adaptations would also be necessary. You'd likely end up with some combination of our western practices, and the Mosuo practices, such as still having no marriage, but increasing a father's financial responsibilities for his offspring; or the decrease in family size, becoming more nuclear, but having those nuclear families made up of brothers and sisters, rather than of husbands and wives; etc.

 

[Orphia Nay]

Fascinating stuff, Wolfman, certainly exactly the type of thing we should talk about more of here - it is an educational foundation after all.

My question concerns whether you might be doing more harm than good.

By promoting the wonderful lifestyle of the Mosuo, you may encourage further tourism and exploitation, which appears to be well entrenched already. I can't see any way that the culture will stand up to this type of exploitation, and while I doubt you're there for the profit, you might end up encouraging the death of the very thing you're working to preserve.

Comments?

Interesting question, TA, and just a brief opinion from me.

I'd have to disagree that Wolfman is merely "promoting the wonderful lifestyle" of the Mosuo. While he is enlightening many as to the existence of the Mosuo, his project is highlighting the difficulties the Mosuo face with respect to education, health, and preservation of their culture.

 

[Wolfman]

Fascinating stuff, Wolfman, certainly exactly the type of thing we should talk about more of here - it is an educational foundation after all.

My question concerns whether you might be doing more harm than good.

By promoting the wonderful lifestyle of the Mosuo, you may encourage further tourism and exploitation, which appears to be well entrenched already. I can't see any way that the culture will stand up to this type of exploitation, and while I doubt you're there for the profit, you might end up encouraging the death of the very thing you're working to preserve.

Comments?

This is one of the biggest questions that I must face, and one that I ask myself regularly. However, at this point, tourism and exploitation are already happening, and it is inevitable that they're going to increase. Would I stop it if I could? I don't know. But can I stop it, or even slow it down? Not really.

Thus, I'm in a position of having to deal with pragmatic reality, rather than the ideal of how we might want it to be. Tourism is going to continue to increase. Exploitation is going to continue to increase. Exposure to and interference from the outside world is going to continue to increase. These are pragmatic facts, this is the reality of the situation. And it is that reality that we must deal with.

To me, the question is not "Are the Mosuo going to change?" or "Are the Mosuo going to be affected by the outside world?". The answer to both is an unequivocal "Yes." The question, rather, is "Are these changes going to be controlled/guided by the Mosuo themselves, or by outsiders?"

My goal is to give as much control to the Mosuo themselves as possible; not to stop change from happening (which is, at this point, impossible), but rather to give the Mosuo the tools, the resources, and the knowledge to control that change as much as they can, and to retain vital aspects of their culture as it takes place.

This is why I am the only non-Mosuo member of our organization...and why I have no vote in what projects they will do, or what their priorities are. All of these things are determined by the Mosuo themselves. My only role is that, after they've set their priorities and determined their projects. to help them find the necessary money, resources, and people to accomplish those goals and complete those projects.

Inevitably, this is not a perfect system, and certainly there will be outside influence. But, in my opinion, it gives the Mosuo themselves the greatest opportunity to take control of their own lives, and their own futures. The only other viable alternative, given the current realities of the situation, is to just watch them get steamrolled by the outside world...as has happened to so many other minority cultures throughout the world.

 

[Wolfman]

Interesting question, TA, and just a brief opinion from me.

I'd have to disagree that Wolfman is merely "promoting the wonderful lifestyle" of the Mosuo. While he is enlightening many as to the existence of the Mosuo, his project is highlighting the difficulties the Mosuo face with respect to education, health, and preservation of their culture.

Thanks, Orph...and a very good point. In explaining the Mosuo culture, there is of course a tendency for me to focus on those aspects which I find most fascinating, and/or positive. I recognize this tendency, and try to balance it out by also explaining the very real problems and struggles that the Mosuo have. Yes, there are some problems (such as sexual abuse of females) which seem to be far less prevalent in Mosuo culture than in most other cultures, and I think it is worth noting this. But there are also some problems that are more prevalent among the Mosuo than in other cultures (for example, there are serious questions revolving around the psychological impact on a child of being considered "not human" until they reach around 14 years of age, and finally receive their human soul).

I'm not trying to promote an idea that Western culture should "learn from the Mosuo" in the context that we should adopt their practices/culture; but rather that we should "learn from the Mosuo" in the context that understanding another culture so different from our own can lead to greater insights into our own culture, and reveal alternatives that we may not have otherwise considered. Just as I believe the Mosuo can benefit from and learn from contact with other cultures, so long as they are able to determine for themselves how that knowledge impacts them, and what changes they will make.

 

[The Atheist]

Cheers. Makes perfect sense and I agree with you on the changes happening regardless - it's clearly too late, so you may have success at damage control.

Good luck with it!

 

[Wolfman]

Thanks! Your question is one of the most common ones I have to deal with, and is really a very important one. Good intentions don't necessarily mean that you're doing the right thing, and this is a question that I must both ask myself regularly, and answer in response to questions from others.

I think it is important to clarify this issue in particular, to make it clear that this is not a case of some "great white savior" coming in and telling the Mosuo what to do; quite the opposite, I do my best to distance myself as far as possible from the actual decisions about what will be done, and to focus only on helping them to accomplish the goals that they've set for themselves. Sometimes, I may not personally agree with those decisions -- but it is their life, their culture, their future, their children...they are the only ones who have the right to make those decisions. And, inevitably, some of those decisions may prove to be wrong, but it is my hope that the majority will prove to be right.

One further note here...it is a very difficult balancing act for me to pull off. It would, in fact, be very easy for me to become the 'benevolent dictator'. I am the one, after all, who holds the purse strings. In addition, the many different leaders in our committee have a lot of past history with each other, some of it not very good at all. There are a lot of interpersonal conflicts and rivalries. When I am not there (which is most of the time), things tend to get bogged down in interpersonal battles, and be guided by grudges as much as by a desire to help.

As the only 'neutral' party, basically being liked and respected by everyone in the committee, it often falls on me to get authoritative, and force them to sit down, discuss the issues, and reach concrete conclusions. And I've had to do this on more than one occasion. Thus, already, I have a larger role than I'd anticipated, and it would be very easy for me to take that just a little farther, and start telling them what I think they should do. And I am, by nature, a leader. I'm not so good at just following what other say. I like to be the one making the decisions, in fact, I prefer it. I know for a fact that things would go faster and more smoothly if I could simply tell everyone what to do, rather than wait for them to work through their personal conflicts and reach a decision. And I'm sure that I could help them avoid some mistakes if I refused to do certain things that they want to do.

But that's all short-term thinking...it provides a short-term benefit in getting things done more quickly, but long-term it makes the Mosuo dependent on others to make their decisions, and determine what is best for them. Again, my goal is to empower them to be able to do these things on their own...and that means letting them make mistakes, and bearing patiently with delays and problems that I see as entirely irrelevant or avoidable. Short-term, it means things happen more slowly, and less efficiently. But long-term, it builds a base of leadership who will have greater and greater competence in doing all these things themselves.

One of my greatest dreams for this organization is to reach the day where my role, or the role of any other outsider, becomes entirely unnecessary, and the Mosuo can do everything for themselves.

 

[The Atheist]

Sounds like you're doing a magnificent job, keep it up!

I'm off to find out why this thread isn't in the "Interesting Threads" forum!

 

[Orphia Nay]

Good move, TA.

Wolfman, you are doing an excellent job! I really can't find fault with your attitude and your organisational plan.

I've thought of another question. Are there any statistics on the Mosuo's individual life expectancy? Especially in comparison to the Chinese.

 

[Wolfman]

Orph,

There are a number of different stats one can look at in regards to life expectancy. I cannot give any links here to specific studies, but based on my own observations, conversations with Mosuo, and discussions with other anthropologists, I can at least give some general info.

First, infant mortality rates have been quite high in the past; with minimal access to decent health care, and a complete lack of understanding about sanitation (bacteria, viruses, etc.), this is pretty much inevitable. In fact, it is theorized by some anthropologists that the whole thing of not considering a child to be fully human until they are 14 was partly a coping mechanism to deal with high rates of infant death; a child who makes it to 14 is far more likely to make it to old age than a child who has only made it to 5 years of age, in that environment.

This is improving now, but rates of infant deaths (whether in childbirth, or due to disease, or accidents, etc.) would still be far higher than for Chinese in more developed regions of China. In addition, completely treatable conditions -- tumors, cancers, blindness, cleft palate, etc. -- are generally left untreated, due to lack of access to adequate health care, and/or lack of money to cover the costs of such treatments. Or they may simply prefer the rituals of a local priest, to the ministrations of a doctor.

As can be surmised from this, diseases will tend to be more common, as will deaths from such diseases. This again increases mortality rates, across all age groups.

Now, all of this having been said -- the Mosuo are, for the most part, a very hardy and healthy people. For those who are lucky enough to avoid (or survive) the ravages of disease, injury, etc., they can live to quite a ripe old age. I'm met a number of Mosuo women in their 80's or 90's who are still quite healthy and spry, and in full command of their mental faculties.

So, in general, I'd say that if they had the same general lifestyle -- work, diet, etc. -- but improved medical care and knowledge, we'd see a very fast and significant increase in overall average lifespans.

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

Subbing.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Gord,

Given the lack of a written history, any really authoritative answer will be hypothetical at best, however most people (Mosuo and anthropologists ) seem to agree on one particular theory:

The Mosuo were migratory for much of their history, moving from place to place. This situation required the men to travel ahead of everyone else, to scout out the land, and deal with any 'resistance' or attacks along the way. In such a situation, permanent relationships were difficult to maintain, and it became more common for men to just sneak back for one or two nights with a particular lady. While not officially condoned, the people tended to take a "don't ask, don't tell" attitude...and over time, this became a natural part of their culture.

The idea of men sneaking in windows at night is, in fact, not at all unique, and there are many cultures that have similar practices...the difference is that in most other cultures, when the guy sneaks in the girl's window and spends the night with her, he is subsequently expected to marry her. Its the lack of any expectation of marriage which makes this particular practice more unique.

It should be pointed out that in times of war, when young men are being sent off to battle and may not return, we tend to see a very similar phenomenon in our own culture. Suddenly, girls who would normally "wait for the right guy" are giving themselves freely to these "brave young men who may never return"...and parents also tend to be more likely to turn a blind eye to what is happening.

As to the present day, the Mosuo do have sexual taboos, particularly in regards to family members. I'm not talking about incest taboos (although those are very strong), but rather taboos against discussing romantic or sexual relationships with members of the opposite sex within your own family. When I talk with Mosuo about these issues, I have to be very careful to first separate the men from the women...if separate, they'll talk quite openly and freely, but if together, they'll say nothing.

A good example of this...when I first went to visit the Mosuo, at one point I asked one of the young men (around 22 yrs. old) if he had any walking marriage relationships. He said absolutely not (but we were in mixed company, with female members of his family there). But three nights later, he told me he was going to go see his girlfriend, and wanted to know if I'd like to come along to see how the walking marriage was done (by this, he meant only the part up to going in her window, not observing everything). I was a little surprised, as he'd told me he had no such relations, but went along out of curiosity. The next morning, at home, nobody in the house said anything when we had breakfast together, it was just a normal morning; but after the guys left, and I was alone with some of the women, they immediately said, "So you went with our brother to his girlfriend's home last night".

Put the men and women together, they won't talk about it, will deny it even happens. Separate them, they talk about it quite openly and freely. A rather strange taboo, from my point of view, but once you understand it, easy to work around.

Thanks. I learned all my Anthropology from Margaret Mead so, needless to say, I am completely clueless about such things.

 

[Roswell-Perseis]

Wolfman,

The Mosuo project is a wonderful endeavor and I hope you experience continuing success. Thanks for the update!

Q: Do you believe the Mosuo's lack of "monetary success" is a position relative to the rest of China or is it more insidious within the Mosuo culture? If not for the invention of medicine and other services would the Mosuo have the notion of some sort of neediness? Furthermore, how do the Mosuo feel about the friction between their culture and that of a technologically advanced society? Do the Mosuo have any type of socio-economic stratification?

 

[Wolfman]

R-P,

Some very good questions, that really get at the heart of the issue. First, the "poverty" is very much a relative thing. If taken in isolation, the Mosuo are almost entirely self-sufficient. They raise their own food, and are well fed; they have homes, clothing, etc. Within their own communities, they have a largely cashless system of commerce, based on barter of goods and services. So, as long as there is no need for contact with or interaction with the outside world, there is not really a big problem.

And this is where the whole "wouldn't it be better to leave them alone" element comes in...there is a very valid (and emotionally appealing) argument to be made that if they're happy and self-sufficient the way they are, why bother them with the 'problems' of the outside world? As I've stated elsewhere, while this makes for great philosophical debate, the pragmatic reality is that the outside world is already there, and there's no turning backwards (unless you're going to tell the Mosuo, "Hey, we're sorry...we're going to take away your electricity, close down the roads, tear down the schools, remove your TVs, DVD players, and return you to the way you were before).

The pragmatic reality is that the Mosuo have gotten a taste of the outside world -- through TV, through school, through contact with outsiders, etc. -- and they are curious about it. While some of them want to stay in their own communities and continue with their 'traditional' life, others want to travel to other places, learn other knowledge, get other jobs, experience other cultures, meet other people, etc. And they require money for this.

It is here that "poverty" becomes an issue. Putting aside the subsistence living, the actual cash income of the average Mosuo is around US$ 100/year. That isn't even enough money to cover all the costs of sending their children to high school or university (quick clarification -- high school is 'free' so far as tuition is concerned; but most high schools are so far away from the Mosuo communities that the only option is for parents to board their children full-time at those schools, which means they must pay room, board, etc.).

And what if Mosuo want to start their own hotels, or their own tourism companies? Where do they get the money to even begin to compete with the outsiders who are encroaching on their culture?

Personally, I don't think that every Mosuo child needs to get a high school or university education...perhaps not even a full primary school education. If they are happy staying in their own community, doing the same jobs and living the same lives as their parents and their grandparents, they can learn everything they need from their own families. But they should have the choice and the freedom to get more education, and to try other opportunities, if that is what they wish to do.

Now, when you talk about medical issues, it becomes much clearer in terms of the issues involved. Every time I visit the Mosuo, I see people of all ages suffering from problems that are completely treatable, completely avoidable...but nothing is done, because they lack the money to get treatment. Barter doesn't work when you are taking your mother to a hospital 80 kilometers away to have surgery on the tumor growing on her jaw.

So yes...it is very much a relative thing. The Mosuo are "poor" or live in "poverty" only by comparison with the Han Chinese majority; but, for better or worse, the Mosuo are no longer isolated, they are becoming more and more a part of the Han Chinese world. And the only way for them to survive and and compete in that world is for them to get more education, develop more knowledge/skills, have more resources, start their own businesses, etc.

The 'good news' in this regard is that I've found the Mosuo to be an eminently flexible and pragmatic people...they adapt to new situations very quickly, and while they want to preserve their culture, they tend to view it as a growing, evolving culture that is able to accept outside ideas and incorporate them within their culture. If you visit there, you will be truly amazed at what they have accomplished with so little actual training or money. The Mosuo Museum I mentioned earlier is a prime example of this -- started by two Mosuo men who wanted to preserve their cultural heritage, and also present an accurate portrayal of the culture to outsiders. With no previous knowledge or experience of doing anything like this, and rallying together the support of the entire Mosuo community, they build a museum which, while fairly simple, is of excellent quality and very high standards. And they're always looking to improve it.

In every single project we've done thus far, where we've provided funding for a project that they've identified as important, the money has not only been used effectively, but they have done more with it than we'd expected, and have worked very hard to get every bit of practical use out of it that they can. The women's training center I mentioned earlier is a great example of this...we gave them money to buy weaving looms and basic materials, and to hire teachers. Not only did they accomplish everything they said they would, but the entire community, seeing how useful this was, pitched in to help and support the training center.

Thus, I have no doubt whatsoever that, if given the opportunity, many Mosuo will learn and adapt quite rapidly, and will be able to take back control over the changes that are taking place in their communities/culture, and control their own futures. I don't really see this as "poverty alleviation"...I see it more as empowerment.

 

[Orphia Nay]

Wolfman,

The Mosuo project is a wonderful endeavor and I hope you experience continuing success. Thanks for the update!

Q: Do you believe the Mosuo's lack of "monetary success" is a position relative to the rest of China or is it more insidious within the Mosuo culture? If not for the invention of medicine and other services would the Mosuo have the notion of some sort of neediness? Furthermore, how do the Mosuo feel about the friction between their culture and that of a technologically advanced society? Do the Mosuo have any type of socio-economic stratification?

They're rather convoluted questions. Perhaps what you're asking is what do the Mosuo really need? (Which Wolfman pretty much answered already.)

I think it's a bit odd to say "if not for the invention of medicine...". We do not even treat animals that way - depriving them of care. Or, we try not to deprive them of care. Furthermore, medicine exists. Why send the Mosuo back to the dark ages?

Perhaps Wolfman can explain further the Mosuo's attitude towards medicine, technology, and modern products - food, clothes etc (if such generalisations are possible, as I'm sure attitudes differ from person to person).

eta: oops, should have refreshed the page.

 

[Wolfman]

Perhaps Wolfman can explain further the Mosuo's attitude towards medicine, technology, and modern products - food, clothes etc.

Medicine is a very tricky issue; the Mosuo, for the most part, still consider illness to be caused by evil spirits or angry gods. The first stage in treatment of any illness will be to call in the Daba priest, and have him perform various ceremonies to restore harmony. If this fails, the priest may then be called on to do some sort of divination, and determine what actions the family needs to take to rid themselves of this affliction. This action may include advising them to go to a hospital, but is far from being a foregone conclusion.

Trying to explain bacteria and viruses (much less genetic diseases) is an exercise in futility in many cases; the idea of microscopic creatures they can't even see causing disease seems as ridiculous and deluded to them as their belief it is caused by evil spirits seems to us. The younger generation, who have received at least a basic education, are changing in this regard...but they're not the decision makers.

So, in many cases, hospitals are the option of last resort, to be taken only if every other possible 'treatment' has been exhausted. But hospitals are generally quite far away (families may end up travelling 8-12 hours to get to the nearest decent hospital), and the costs are often way too high for the average Mosuo family. Add to that the fact that many Mosuo don't go to the hospital until it is too late (and die anyway), and the Mosuo just don't see much value in spending so much money for treatments that they don't understand, and that don't seem to help anyone anyway.

As the Daba priest is generally the main source of advice in any community, one of our potential strategies is to focus on educating the Dabas about medicine; if we could convince them of the value of proper medical care, they'd then recommend it to Mosuo families, who would do it because that's what the priest told them to do. There is one young Daba priest with whom I am very good friends, and we spend a lot of time together. He is woefully uneducated in anything except the Daba religion (he didn't even complete grade one of primary school, speaks faltering Chinese, and is completely illiterate); but he's one of the nicest, most sincere guys I've ever met, and he's responded quite positively to my efforts to give him more knowledge. I just have to be careful to present information in a way that does not directly contradict his own religious beliefs.

So, for example, when I was explaining viruses and bacteria to him, at first he was just overwhelmed, found it beyond comprehension. Then, at one point, I said, "Well, you can't see ghosts, spirits, or gods, but you believe in them, right?". His response was not what I'd expected -- "Oh, so you mean this is just your version of ghosts and spirits!". That was not what I meant...but it provided a convenient hook that allowed him to incorporate what I was telling him into his faith. By the same token, when I talked about medicines, vaccines, etc., he remained resistant and uncomprehending until I equated medical treatments with the ceremonies he does to defeat evil spirits.

Thus, his actual understanding of "medicine" is rather comical (from our perspective)...his view on it is that medicine is basically just another religious means of doing what he does: that is, defeat evil spirits with the judicious application of the appropriate ceremonies. But, for all that it is inaccurate, it serves its purpose...if he performs his own ceremonies, and they don't work, he will then immediately suggest that people try a hospital, where perhaps their ceremonies will prove more effective.

And I want to emphasize here that I don't intend this to be patronizing, or anything like that. This man is a close friend, and someone for whom I have phenomenal respect. He is one of the members of our committee, and one of our most important resources in terms of recording and preserving the Mosuo oral history. His background and education give him a view of the world that is radically different than mine, and it is my responsibility to first understand his perspective and beliefs, and then find a way to work within that structure, rather than to simply treat him like some ignorant simpleton and expect him to abandon everything he believes and think/act like I want him to.

The process of change is slow, and gradual. And it will become even more difficult if we fail to demonstrate respect for their culture and beliefs. Long-term, education and exposure to the outside world will inevitably shift or change their beliefs -- sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. In this project, one must take the long-term perspective; not thinking in terms of a few years, but thinking in terms of decades.

 

[Wolfman]

Oh, and in regards to things like clothes, technology, etc....

...clothing is, for the most part, 'normal' clothing...jeans, t-shirts, etc. They do have traditional clothing, but at least in the case of younger Mosuo, this is usually worn only for special occasions.

And no problem with technology. The Mosuo can "see" that it works (as opposed to microorganisms), and while they may not understand the "how", that's not so important. The Mosuo are very ecumenical and flexible in their belief system...if you can show them it works, they accept it.

Consider that this is a culture that has two entirely different religions -- Daba and Tibetan Buddhism -- existing simultaneously side-by-side. Many of the beliefs of the two religions would seem, to the western mind, to be in opposition to each other. But for the Mosuo, there is no such conflict. Whatever works, works. The "why" is just not that terribly important, they live in a world where most things that happen, happen for reasons beyond their control or comprehension.

In fact, this leads to a rather humorous/ironic little story. The Mosuo culture is very much a fate-oriented culture...everything that happens happens for a reason, and is determined by forces beyond their control. Therefore, the idea of "taking control of their fate/destiny" not only seems pointless, it is actually seen as dangerous and harmful, fighting against the will of powers that are greater than you.

So, when I first started talking about setting up this organization and these projects, I met tremendous resistance. Not in the form of "we don't want this", but in the form of "We don't know if this is what we are supposed to do". In this regard, getting support of the Daba priests (who pretty much determine everything in regards to what should or should not be done, when it should be done, where it should be done, etc.) is crucial.

However, once I had actually managed to get a few Mosuo on my side, and we established our organization, their attitude did a 100% reversal, and they became very excited about and supportive of our work, throwing themselves into it with great enthusiasm. Why? Because we had been successful in doing it (where many others had failed), which in and of itself was an indication that this is what is supposed to happen. Thus, quite ironically, an atheistic foreigner ended up being their supernatural confirmation that what we were doing was ordained by fate.

 

[Schneibster]

Fascinating, Wolfman. I can understand your respect for this culture; you are doing good, and I hope you do well.

 

[Caius Textor]

First of all, I think you´re doing a very respectable job, Wolfman. I was particularly interested in the linguistic effort your project is engaged in.
That aside:

I love to know more about different cultures because it helps to make clearer who and what mankind as a whole is. The particular cultures arising everywhere show us what humans can and can´t do, what happens and what never happens. It helps to understand ourselves.

I might admire how this or that culture faces a particular human problem, but I am VERY skeptical of any atempt at emulating these practices. I believe that each culture has problems/advantages based on how they are as a whole; it´s difficult to pinpoint what exactly is the cause of that, even in the over-anylised, over-studied western societies, let alone a small, poorly documented one (with no disrespect to your and other´s work with them).

Also, yourself have pointed the many problems (and potencial problems, like STDs) they suffer, so I don´t see how their society as a whole has any kind of advantage over any other.
Their practices regarding mariage seems deeply rooted on their ancestral practices in other social "areas" such as producing riches, job division, etc. It works in that framework and we lack the proper tools of analisys to know if it would work in any other (I´m not a cultural relativist).

Western society (religious bigots apart) is already learning the most valuable tool of all: we can look at ourselves and change by our own means. Self-correction.
I´m no anthropologist, so correct me if I´m wrong: looking at your own habits and customs and judging them seems to be THE most frequent taboo in any society. We are moving past that stage.

Bottom line? I don´t see why we should try a compromise. Maybe someday we will arrive at the same "conclusion" the Mosuo have regarding marriage. But let that be by our own hands.

 

[Wolfman]

Caius,

Actually, I think I'd agree almost 100% with what you said. It is not my intention in any way to promote the idea that Western culture should adopt Mosuo culture or practices. In fact, much of my work focuses on opposing people who seek to present inaccurate, idealized versions of Mosuo culture and use that as an argument for doing the same things in the West (primarily lesbian/feminist groups) (and no, I have no problems with lesbians or feminists in general, only with those who seek to distort or misrepresent Mosuo culture in the pursuit of their own personal agendas).

I believe that knowing about and understanding Mosuo culture (and, for that matter, and other culture) can be very valuable in that it can present alternative perspectives that we might not otherwise consider, and it can cause us to look at and question certain presuppositions we have within our own cultures. For example, most people I know would, as an initial reaction, dismiss as utterly ridiculous and unrealistic a culture in which fathers had no responsibility for their children, but rather were responsible for their sisters' children. Yet the Mosuo (and a few other cultures) do just this.

Seeking to inform people about the Mosuo does not mean seeking to proselytize them to become like the Mosuo. As I've mentioned in several different posts here, I think it would actually be pretty much impossible to transplant many aspects of Mosuo culture into Western culture.

On the flip side of that, I think it is wrong to assume that outside cultures are superior to Mosuo culture, and that therefore the Mosuo should change; but I do believe the Mosuo should have the opportunity to learn about and understand other cultures, and to contast that with their own. And then choose for themselves if they want to change, or stay the same.

My perspective on both sides is pretty much the same. I'm not trying to make anyone change. Just providing a better avenue for discussion, communication, and cooperation between those different groups.

 

[Caius Textor]

So, for example, when I was explaining viruses and bacteria to him, at first he was just overwhelmed, found it beyond comprehension. Then, at one point, I said, "Well, you can't see ghosts, spirits, or gods, but you believe in them, right?". His response was not what I'd expected -- "Oh, so you mean this is just your version of ghosts and spirits!". That was not what I meant...but it provided a convenient hook that allowed him to incorporate what I was telling him into his faith. By the same token, when I talked about medicines, vaccines, etc., he remained resistant and uncomprehending until I equated medical treatments with the ceremonies he does to defeat evil spirits.

Thus, his actual understanding of "medicine" is rather comical (from our perspective)...his view on it is that medicine is basically just another religious means of doing what he does: that is, defeat evil spirits with the judicious application of the appropriate ceremonies.

This is just an idea I had now, feel free to go "Duh, of course!" on me:

Instead of comparing medicine with what-looks-like-their-version-of, have you tried comparing it to things in their daily lives that are completely cause-effect? So, instead of explaining our healing method on par with their "healing" method, you could try telling them our medicine is like agriculture, or chopping wood, or even eating or drinking; actions you take to fight specific problems, with obvious result.

That way you can have a cause-effect analogy, and not a healing method one.

Also, have you ever thought of taking a simple, high-school lab microscope? I bet they would like to actually see our "spirits."

 

[Wolfman]

Caius,

First, I don't think that anyone here has asked stupid questions/suggestions, and I appreciate all perspectives and suggestions. They may not always be practical within this specific situation, but even explaining that helps provide more understanding of the culture.

In regards to the "cause-and-effect" thing, its difficult. It is not enough to tell them there is a cause-and-effect, I'd have to show it to them. But for many of them, in their own personal experiences, they've seen that at least sometimes when the Daba does his thing, people get better; but most of the the time when people go to the hospital, they die anyway (and after spending every cent the family has to do so).

From our 'logical' outside perspective, the reasons for this are obvious -- many of the medical conditions that the Daba does his ceremonies for simply disappear on their own (or a placebo effect may help, also). Whereas people often go the hospital only when it is too late, as a last-ditch option.

But from their perspective, how are you going to convince them to spend everything the family has for treatments that all evidence indicates don't work, in favor of traditional ceremonies that both their parents and religious leaders tell them work, and are also quite cheap? Their cause-and-effect experience, on a practical, daily level, is that Daba ceremonies have a higher rate of 'curing' people than hospitals do.

Again, change in this regard is necessarily going to be very slow, and is going to come about primarily by focusing on the younger generation...on educating them early, giving them fundamental knowledge such as this, so that when they get older and become decision makers, they'll consider this as a more serious, viable option.

In regards to the microscopes, again, that will work with the younger generation, and is something we hope to focus on in our educational projects. But for the older generation, it is doubtful that it would make much difference at all. Even if you can prove that bacteria exist...how do you "prove" that such incredibly tiny creatures can kill something as big as a human?

 

[Caius Textor]

Thanks for the reply. I see you go a long way to get your ideas clearly across, and that is a very fine quality. We do see eye to eye on this.
I was actually with an older post in mind (back on page 2 when you said something about compromise), I surely don´t think you are trying to convert us into Mosuonism. Or the other way around.

I do believe that if any culture is to be considered inferior or superior, a specific one can´t be taken as measuring unit. Either we have objective criteria for that or nothing at all.

ETA (Concerning the cause-effect thing) You have a pretty difficult job there. I think you know very well what you´re doing, specially given the carefull approach you take. Those are very good reasons not to do what I thought was simple and easy. I guess I would be pretty frustrated doing your job. So congratulations again!

 

[Wolfman]

A new topic:

During one of my visits, I also learned something else new. In all the literature I've read about the Mosuo, and all the discussions I've had with anthropologists who've studied the Mosuo, I've been uniformly told that the Mosuo have no marriage ceremonies. This is partly what makes them unique...there are other cultures in which marriage is not necessarily expected, but there is always some sort of marriage ceremony for people who want to get married.

During the visit in question, I had requested that I be given a proper Mosuo name; however, this is not a simple as it might seem. Names are very important, and have significant power within the Mosuo culture. The Daba priest must go through an elaborate ritual, and do various calculations that incorporate your date/time of birth, your mother's date/time of birth, and your grandmother's date/time of birth. In my case, it took the Daba about three hours, and tons of rituals and chanting, to bequeath on me the Mosuo name of Dashi Nombu (which was very cool).

However, when he finished this ceremony, he told me that he was heading off to another village to perform a marriage ceremony! This kinda' caught me off guard, and I asked what he was talking about; I told him I'd been told that there were no marriage ceremonies in the Mosuo culture/religion.

He replied that they were very rare, but they do happen. I had no chance to talk with him further at that time, so had to leave it at that. I later contacted an anthropologist friend, who's spent years with the Mosuo, who admitted she had never heard of such a thing. However, she did say that occasionally, there may be a situation where a woman wants to leave her home (or is kicked out of her home), and must start a new home on her own. Lacking the support of brother or other family in this new home, she will invite a man to come and actually live with her, and be her 'husband'. They will be the founders of this new family (one of the most famous books about the Mosuo, "Leaving Mother Lake", which I would highly recommend to everyone, tells the story of a young Mosuo girl who came from a family in just this situation; her mother had left home, and started a new home on her own).

Anyway, she was unaware of any specific rituals or ceremonies surrounding this, but said she suspected that it would be something of this nature that the Daba was referring to.

The next time I go there, I intend to follow up on this and clarify exactly what kind of ceremony this is, and when/how it is used.

 

[Wolfman]

I guess I would be pretty frustrated doing your job.

Oh, at times this work almost breaks my heart...it can be very disheartening and depressing, as well as being very rewarding. Consider the two following examples:

* In order to convince children and parents of the value of education, you need to instill some kind of 'dream' or 'vision' of the future. Not the way things are today, but the way things could be if they got more education. But the truth is, even if we're successful in convincing them to continue, probably 90% of those kids will end up not being accepted into high school or university, and will derive no quantifiable benefit from it. It is incredibly difficult to build up hopes and dreams, knowing that many people will not reach them; it is even more difficult comforting students who are bawling their eyes out because for the past 5 years they've put everything they have into being a good student, and they then discover that it wasn't good enough, and they won't be able to study any more.

Yet, without building that sense of hopes and dreams, it is virtually impossible to get any of the kids to pursue an education...and the 10% that are capable of getting through and achieving a higher education would be lost, also.

* At times, it can be incredibly gratifying to the ego to be perceived as the guy who is doing so much to "save" the Mosuo. I am a hero to many of these people, and enjoy a level of respect there that I've never experienced anywhere else. But, there is very much a balance to that which keeps me from getting too swelled a head.

Consider -- every time I go there, everyone knows me. A family who lost everything they had in a fire, and are entirely destitute, come to me crying, begging for money to rebuild their home. I have to say no. A family that has worked hard to build a small hotel, but doesn't have enough money to finish it (and will lose everything if they can't finish it), come to me to ask for money to complete the job. And I have to say no.

It often seems that, rather then telling people what we can do to help them, I end up spending most of my time telling people why I can't help them. I wish I could help every single one of them...but we don't have the resources to do that, not right now.

Even worse, I have to do a kind of ethical triage on such requests. Helping an individual family in a time of crisis is incredibly heart-warming...but it provides no long-term benefit to the Mosuo as a group. And when we have such limited resources, most of our focus must be primarily on using our funds in the way that provides the greatest benefit to the greatest number of people. Which, again, means that all too often I have to tell people in desperate need that yes, we have money, but no, we can't give it to you.

There are occasional spots of sunlight in this, of course. When we do complete a project that provides a benefit to the entire community, such as supporting a school, or building a training center, its an incredible rush to see how grateful the people are, and how much good is accomplished through it. And for the needs of individuals, while we often cannot assign our organization's funds to individuals, I do my best to make other people aware when such things happen, and occasionally I'll get a donor who will want to make a donation specifically to help that individual...in which case I'm more than happy to be the one delivering the good news.

This work is far harder, and far more emotionally wearing, than I'd ever anticipated when I began. The times I've been reduced almost to tears would be pretty much as numerous as the times I've felt an overwhelming sense of accomplishment and pride. I just keep telling myself that, as our organization grows and our resources increase, hopefully the number of times I have to say, "No" will decrease, and the times I can say, "Yes, we can help you" will increase.

 

[Hokulele]

Like most other people who have posted here, I would like to thank you for sharing this. I also have a question. Have you ever been concerned that the foundation may someday come to replace/conflict with the system of matriarchs that is currently in place? In other words, do you find people coming to you or your group for answers first?

 

[Wolfman]

Like most other people who have posted here, I would like to thank you for sharing this. I also have a question. Have you ever been concerned that the foundation may someday come to replace/conflict with the system of matriarchs that is currently in place? In other words, do you find people coming to you or your group for answers first?

Actually, this is one of the few areas in which I don't have any real concerns! First, the key leaders of our organization (the ones who worked with me to set it up, and who have the most influence) are almost all women, and two of them are matriarchs of their own families.

In addition, there is no such thing in Mosuo culture as just have "a meeting" to decide something; the process is considerably more elaborate than that (and this was something I had to learn the hard way). Essentially, at one meeting, we will have a discussion of different ideas, different possibilities. But if I try to get them to make an actual decision, choose a specific direction, I'll face nothing but frustration. Why? Because they must go home and discuss it with their families, and their communities, first. Just as property is communal, so are decisions.

At first I didn't understand what was happening, and was incredibly frustrated; but once I figured it out, and understood how the process worked, I came to embrace it, because it means that in a very real way, it is the Mosuo people as a whole who are guiding our committee. It isn't an isolated group in an ivory tower making pronouncements that affect everyone else; before my committee is actually ready to make a concrete decision, the issues have been discussed and debated by numerous people within the community, and you can be certain that the matriarchs have had their say. Its slow...but it works.

A note about our finances here, because this is also an issue in regards to matriarchal influence. Finances are the one area where I wield significant power...in fact, I have sole signing power over our bank account, and can withhold money from any project. In reality, if the majority of the committee is agreed on a particular project, I will not withhold money, even if I don't personally agree with that decision.

BUT -- and this is a big "BUT" -- this arrangement is absolutely necessary, and was a point of considerable deliberation and discussion when we first set up the organization. Because, in Mosuo culture, if a family member (or in particular the matriarch) requests something, it is virtually impossible to say no. So, just envisage a situation where some of the Mosuo committee members have the authority to disburse funds. Then their mother comes to them and tells them that she wants them to give her part of that money to pay for their childrens' education, or for vital medical care. It would be impossible for them to refuse, and the result would be that funds were routinely misappropriated for personal use.

By giving me sole power, they have deniability. When friends or family members make such requests, they can simply say, "I want to help, but it is not my decision, John has control over the money".

The good thing is, this avoids the issue of abuse of funds, corruption, etc. The bad thing is, it means that I'm the guy who always ends up being the one who has to say "No"...even though the reason for that decision is the policies and priorities that have been set by the committee.

 

[Hokulele]

Wow, the more I learn about the culture, the more interesting it sounds. Thanks for the answer. Another question, does each family tend to have a "representative" when it comes to meetings and community decisions? In other words, is someone designated to formally represent the family to the community at large?

 

[Wolfman]

Wow, the more I learn about the culture, the more interesting it sounds. Thanks for the answer. Another question, does each family tend to have a "representative" when it comes to meetings and community decisions? In other words, is someone designated to formally represent the family to the community at large?

Well, in regards to our committee, no, there's nothing so deliberate or organized. Like most Asian cultures, this is a culture in which 'harmony' is greatly prized, particularly in relationships. So when making decisions, people tend to talk around the issue a lot, and feel others out, until they get a sense of what the majority consensus is...and then they will make the decision that most people already agree with, and everyone else will agree.

Like I said, it can be a slow process. And this doesn't mean that there is never conflict or disagreement, but when that does happen, it tends to be quite over the top, fists-flying-while-cursing-vehemently types of disagreements (fortunately, I've been witness to few of these).

However, within a community, there may occasionally be town meetings in which everyone meets together to make important decisions. I've only been witness to this personally once (I told the story previously, about when money was stolen from me and they had a 'town meeting' to determine the thief's fate), and while there don't seem to be many 'officially designated' representatives, everyone seems to know and acknowledge who the key people are. The matriarchs will also have a significant say, and even if they don't speak up directly themselves, they may be directing someone else behind the scenes.

 

[Earthborn]

In my case, it took the Daba about three hours, and tons of rituals and chanting, to bequeath on me the Mosuo name of Dashi Nombu (which was very cool).

Cool. Does that mean anything, or is it just a random arrangement of syllables? And if you think it is just a random arrangement of syllables, are you really really sure of that? We all know the stories about anthropologists being given names by locals that are actually profane. Who knows, maybe you said 'no' so many times that you are now officially known as 'cheap bastard'

 

[Wolfman]

Cool. Does that mean anything, or is it just a random arrangement of syllables? And if you think it is just a random arrangement of syllables, are you really really sure of that? We all know the stories about anthropologists being given names by locals that are actually profane. Who knows, maybe you said 'no' so many times that you are now officially known as 'cheap bastard'

Oh, my Mosuo name, "Dashi Nombu", most definitely has a meaning (the meaning of the name is of great importance to them), and in this case, its been confirmed by numerous independent sources that it does not mean anything like "cheap bastard"

Now, keep in mind, I can at best only hope to give an approximate translation...this is a name in the Mosuo language, but the meaning was explained in Chinese language, and I'm now using English to explain it. But, as a general explanation:

"Dashi" means unswerving...someone who, once they set their eyes on a particular goal, will pursue that goal doggedly until it is finished, no matter what obstacles they may face. "Nombu" is a little more complicated...it means some sort of mythical jewel that is spewed out of a dragon's mouth, and is supposed to be harder than diamond. But basically, it means a combination of "indestructible" and "valuable".

Given how important names are to the Mosuo, I'm sure that the Daba had some specific intent in choosing this name; when I tell it to other Mosuo, they all say it is a very good, strong name. I'm sure that he was thinking at least somewhat of what kind of name would be suitable for a leader of an organization like ours. It turns out that one of my Mosuo friends has exactly the same name, also, which kinda' makes us "brothers". And I'm now a kind of honorary family member of all Mosuo who bear the family name "Dashi" (since they put the family name first, and the given name last).

 

[Wolfman]

Here's a website which is a very good example of the kind of misinformation about the Mosuo that we're always seeking to address. As is unfortunately common with such things, it is on a website that deals with issues of women's rights and sexism, so it is understandable why they might prefer this kind of article; but what is worse is that it apparently comes from ABC.com. A few excerpts:

The Mosuo people perform their courtship dance, when women traditionally choose a male companion for the night or a year or a lifetime — and the men have no say in the matter.

There aren't really "courtship dances"...the Mosuo simply enjoy dancing and singing, and will use it as an opportunity to pair up with someone else. But someone who does not seek a partner will still dance; and there are many other ways to choose a partner than in these dances.

But worse, is the statement that "the men have no say in the matter". That's just complete rubbish. First, the men can say, "No." Second, as I've described elsewhere, there are many ways for a man to take the initiative and indicate interest in a woman. The one way in which this is partly true is that only the women have private bedrooms (men sleep in communal areas), so while both sides have equal rights to say no, and both sides can initiate an encounter, only the woman can actually provide a place to meet...so she does retain greater control in that way.

It may sound bizarre to a Western visitor, but anthropologists say because the men have no power, control no land, and play subservient sexual roles, they have nothing to fight over — making this one of the most harmonious societies on the planet. The Mosuo people, estimated to number around 50,000, have no word for war, no murders, no rapes, no jails.

THIS is the claim that really gets my dander up. What complete and utter bollocks. I know of no reputable anthropologists who make these claims -- only those amateurs who come in with their own agenda, spend a few days/weeks, and then leave with their predetermined conclusions still firmly in place.

It is true that men don't control the land...but they certainly have power, and an equal voice in family issues. In fact, the oldest male in the house usually enjoys the second position of power (second to the matriarch), and will be closely involved in all family decisions. That they play "subservient sexual roles" is an absolutely ridiculous claim, and plays more to the Amazonian Warrior myth than to anything reflecting reality.

And they have nothing to fight over? No words for war? I was only with the Mosuo for three days before they told me stories of past wars they've had...wars with other minorities, wars with the Tibetans, etc. In fact, they took me to a large valley that they say nobody will live in because they slaughtered more than 1000 Tibetan soldiers there in a battle some 500 years ago, and the ghosts still haunt it. And I've already discussed the rest (no murder, no rape, etc.) above.

During the height of Mao Tse-tung's communist rule in the 1960s and '70s, China's hard-liners forced the Mosuo people to abandon their practice of "tisese" and adopt the practice of monogamy. But when China relaxed its tight social controls during the post-Mao era, the Mosuo people reverted back to their traditional sexual practices.

Partly true...partly not. The Chinese gov't most definitely made efforts to stop the practice of walking marriages, and declared it illegal for quite some time. And they outlawed the training of new Daba priests. But they did not make the matriarchal system illegal, and Mosuo women continued to hold considerable power throughout this period. Today, the laws regarding walking marriages and not training Daba priests have been struck down, and these are no longer major issues (although some of the damage from these past policies still exists).

But this article fails entirely to mention what I discussed previously, that there was also a patriarchal noble class among the Mosuo; and that it was the Chinese gov't's abolition of landlords, and the entire feudal system, that effectively destroyed the patriarchal aspect of the Mosuo, and left them an almost entirely matriarchal culture.

Other information in the article -- particularly that about the developing sex industry, and the dangers it poses -- is pretty accurate. But if you go to Google, and type in "Mosuo", the link to this article will appear in the very first page of results. Fortunately, the link to our organization appears before it; and the link to the Wikipedia article (which was also written by me, and links to our site) is number one. So, hopefully, we will gradually be able to deal with this misinformation, and help people get a more accurate understanding of the Mosuo culture.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Oh, and in regards to things like clothes, technology, etc....

Two thoughts on this fantastic discussion.

1. How ya gonna keep them on the farm once they've seen Shanghai? The short answer is, you don't, or can't, and they will adapt in some way. Your efforts to help them keep as much control of the transformation is admirable, and is to me empowerment at its best.

2. About the fatalism, and "control of large spiritual forces," it seems their initial reaction bordered on "be careful of what you wish for, since you are sure to get it."

Some ideas seem to have universal application, though I imagine you are pleased to see that after some reservations, the leadership/councils chose to grab the bull by the balls horns.

If all you can achieve is a preservation of the language, stories, and cultural baseline, given that within a couple of generations the likelihood is that the modern/outside world will prevail over the indigenous culture, your effort will have been worth it. Anything beyond that is gravy. (The Atheist's link was a nice counterpoint to the "inside the box" story you have provided.)

I have some reservations about the social model scaling up, for the reasons that communes don't scale up all that well. Your treatment of that was well put.

Your hypothetical of the Han all fading away, and two centuries of Muosuo growth into the vacuum of course had to ignore . . . the rest of the world. I'm thinking the ambitious and industrious Viet Namese would steal a march on the Muosuo.

Best wishes.

DR

 

[Wolfman]

Two thoughts on this fantastic discussion.

1. How ya gonna keep them on the farm once they've seen Shanghai? The short answer is, you don't, or can't, and they will adapt in some way. Your efforts to help them keep as much control of the transformation is admirable, and is to me empowerment at its best.

Thank you...very much!

2. About the fatalism, and "control of large spiritual forces," it seems their initial reaction bordered on "be careful of what you wish for, since you are sure to get it."

That would be a Western approximation, but really doesn't get into how much this view of life and 'fate' affects Asian philosophy in general, and Chinese in particular. The Mosuo believe very strongly that every aspect of their lives is mandated by the gods. They believe in free will -- you can reject what the gods have decided -- but doing so only brings pain and suffering. Thus, you do not take any action until you are sure that it is what the gods want you to do.

The problem is that the best indication of the gods' favor is to take an action, and have it be successful (which is what I did when I started this organization). But you can't take an action unless you're sure it has the god's favor. And then throw in the whole Tibetan Buddhist influence, and the idea that "desire" is a bad thing, one should simply accept the way things are, and abandon any desire for change...change will happen if it happens. Fortunately, now that it appears I have the gods' blessings on this idea, getting support for other ideas is much easier. Basically, the Mosuo suggest and debate an idea; bring it up in our committee; then ask for my opinion or advice. If I say I support it, that's basically as good as saying that they have the gods' blessings on it. So we can move ahead full steam (or the Mosuo approximation of full steam, which to me sometimes seems more like 1/4 steam).

I want to emphasize, yes, there are frustrations and problems...there are times that problems and delays that seem to me entirely avoidable instead put us weeks or months behind schedule. But I love the Mosuo very deeply, and have phenomenal respect for them. They come from an entirely different world than me, and the way they perceive that world, the way they make decisions about that world, will inevitably be completely different. But not only are things getting done, it is the Mosuo themselves who are getting it done. We're laying a foundation, and no matter how slow that process may be, it is a very solid foundation that I have every expectation will last for many years to come.

If all you can achieve is a preservation of the language, stories, and cultural baseline, given that within a couple of generations the likelihood is that the modern/outside world will prevail over the indigenous culture, your effort will have been worth it. Anything beyond that is gravy. (The Atheist's link was a nice counterpoint to the "inside the box" story you have provided.)

I agree completely; I will not even try to make predictions about what the situation of the Mosuo will be 50 or 100 or 200 years later...worst case scenario, they will have forgotten their language, will know little or nothing of their culture or history, and will be essentially indistinguishable from any other Chinese. But at some point, there are going to be some of them who are going to want to know about their ancestors' heritage, their history, their language, etc. And we will at least have the information there, preserved for those future generations.

At best -- and this is what I hope for -- the Mosuo will still retain their own language, preserved and encouraged by the development of a written form taught to them from primary school. They will still retain a strong cultural identity, and although they certainly will have changed/evolved somewhat, will still retain a unique 'Mosuo' character. They will be in charge of their own lives, controlling and benefiting from whatever businesses/industries they have developed. And they'll be spreading out across China, and to other parts of the world, introducing more people to their culture...and bringing new knowledge and experiences back to their home communities to share and benefit from.

Your hypothetical of the Han all fading away, and two centuries of Muosuo growth into the vacuum of course had to ignore . . . the rest of the world. I'm thinking the ambitious and industrious Viet Namese would steal a march on the Muosuo.

lol -- I thought of about half a million problems with that hypothetical right after I posted it, and had to force myself to refrain from going back and ruining it entirely with a whole slew of clarifications, conditional statements, and alternate possibilities.

 

[Roswell-Perseis]

They're rather convoluted questions. Perhaps what you're asking is what do the Mosuo really need? (Which Wolfman pretty much answered already.)

I was asking about what sociologists call socio-economic stratification. It is difficult for me to percieve if or to what degree that exists in non-Western societies. I was not asking about donations.

I think it's a bit odd to say "if not for the invention of medicine...". We do not even treat animals that way - depriving them of care. Or, we try not to deprive them of care. Furthermore, medicine exists. Why send the Mosuo back to the dark ages?

What are you talking about? I asked that had certain development not occurred would the Mosuo percieve themselves as needy (if that is how they percieve themselves now). I was not advocating taking things from them but trying to understand their perspective.

My question was appropriate for what I was asking and I have no idea what you are trying to say to me.

ETA: Are you inferring that I'm a biggot because I want to ask questions about a culture I don't understand?

 

[Wolfman]

R-P,

I think there's been a slight misunderstanding; Orph and I are old friends from another forum (several other forums, actually), and she's the one who first invited me to come here. During the course of this discussion, one member launched a major personal attack on me that threatened to derail this entire discussion. I made the mods aware of it, and at the same time sent a PM to her, requesting her support.

However, by the time she got my PM and came to check it out, the mods had already removed the offending posts, and returned the forum to normality. So all she saw was your most recent post, and even though it wasn't what I was referring to, she reacted to defend me.

That brief period of time -- and subsequent deletion of the relevant posts -- created a bit of discontinuity, and has resulted in some misunderstandings. I hope that this clears things up, and that we can all return to the normal, friendly, intelligent discussion we've all been enjoying so much.

 

[Orphia Nay]

R-P,

I think there's been a slight misunderstanding; Orph and I are old friends from another forum (several other forums, actually), and she's the one who first invited me to come here. During the course of this discussion, one member launched a major personal attack on me that threatened to derail this entire discussion. I made the mods aware of it, and at the same time sent a PM to her, requesting her support.

However, by the time she got my PM and came to check it out, the mods had already removed the offending posts, and returned the forum to normality. So all she saw was your most recent post, and even though it wasn't what I was referring to, she reacted to defend me.

That brief period of time -- and subsequent deletion of the relevant posts -- created a bit of discontinuity, and has resulted in some misunderstandings. I hope that this clears things up, and that we can all return to the normal, friendly, intelligent discussion we've all been enjoying so much.

Exactly. Thankyou Wolfman.

Roswell-Perseis, I'm very sorry I got my back up about your post, and did not digest your questions appropriately. It was a misunderstanding but also a failure to comprehend your questions on my behalf.

I didn't realise the insulting posts had been deleted, so when Wolfman told me a nutter had just posted in this thread, I was seeing red and looking for an argument. Again, I apologise.

In my very weak defence, which I abandon and apologise for, I did tell Wolfman I didn't think your post (or 'the nutter's post' as I thought) was as bad as he described. D'uh.