Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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I'll repeat it for the deaf ones, but only once: there was *no* selection of knives in the apartment. *No* choice.
Do you understand the concept: *no* selection.
All dangerous knives in the apartment, compatible with a stabbing, were picked and seized. Period.
*All* of them.

Your argument then is with Judge Massei, not the innocentati.... as Mary_H supplied upthread which you ignored...

From Massei: The knife was taken by Inspector Finzi, who testified that he had clean, new gloves and that, having opened the drawer where the tableware was kept, the first thing he saw was a large knife that was extremely clean. There were other knives in the drawer, but he took [only] this one, which became Exhibit 36. This knife was the first object he touched and it was located on top of all the tableware.
 
So, just to be clear - it does not bother you that under oath, Stefanoni said that she could neither confirm nor deny that she, herself, had touched the bra-hooks with an obviously dirty glove? And it does not bother you that even though Judge Massei discusses the point that replacing the bra-clasp back to the floor after handling it is itself a route of contamination, that Stefanoni in the video does in fact that? And that contrary to her claim that she "always changed gloves" that she then went and handled another item without changing gloves?

I think the most honest thing you've said is that Stefanoni's work was based on "improvisation".

It would also be good to acknowledge that stefanoni lied.
 
I jus point out Stefanoni is not a "technician", she is an expert in molecular biology, has a PhD and she is a high officer in charge of forensic investigations. Yes, I do agree to the fact that the forensic who surveys the crime scene and choses what to collect is the same person who performs the tests. It seems the best to me. The laboratory experts should take care of the crime scene from minute one and manage the collecting of evidence, as long as possible.

This opinion of mine, does not mean I subscribe to the rules of coordination of the different teams working on a crime scene in the Italian system. I think there is often a lack of coordination due to beaurocratic reasons, a crime scene managment level should be implemented.
But it's very difficult to have this on a local territorial scale. Stefanoni for example is from Rome. Her team is called to operate for short-lasting periods of time (few hours) and has no logicstical bases nor means. Her department could never oversee an investigation. But there is no local office who does it on the place; there is no technical crime scene management.



I have no black/white opinion. I appreciate their professionalism, but also understand they lack means and must often operate based on improvvisation. My honest opinion on the "vidoes", actually, is that the videos are totally irrelevant per se as for defensive claims. They don't mean anything of the kind the innocentisti wish to see in them.



I fully accept the Carabinieri findings, and I see them as 1. contradicting C&V's claims, exposing their blunders and contributing to undermine their credibility; and 2. not discrediting Stefanoni's work at all. In fact their claims on the scientific matter were just identical to Stefanoni's (including the thoungt about "test repetition" issue, since I guess that's the point you are thinking about).
Why I refuse to "accept" the reports of C&V? Actually, to be precise I do not "refuse the reports", I reject the conclusions that C&V derive from the facts they list in their report. Namely I say that C&V make some assertions at the end of their report (and also some additional assertions within their report) which are either proven false (from the very facts recorded in their report), totally unsupported, or meaningless.
I reject the assertions rather than the facts.
But criticism to C&V report is actually more complex than that, I spoke about it thoroughly, and I have no time to go into all details now.
Just add something. Beyond assertions, there are also some proven lies: C&V are caught to be disingenuous and fraudulent in their report, in my opinion. They lie when they quote the Oct 2. 2008 transcript, for example. They misquote Stefanoni by inserting word she didn't write nor say. Etc. They are also intellectually dishonest in their procedure; they falsely reported about others decisions, they disobeyed the judges task and warped them, they stepped beyond their task by attempting to "judge" (attack) the honesty of Stefanoni instead of the research the topic. They were biased against Stefanoni, they have professional precedents that makes it worth doubt what they say (Olgiata, Cucchi, Cosenza, Ghira, etc..), but also they proved incompetent in their very profession that is coroner (the medico-legal profession). They have a specialization in "medicina legale e delle assicurazioni" (medicine in legal and insurance matters; that is = coroner). Conti proved to be ignorant of the law and procedures, on very basic points in a way a coroner is not supposed to be.
That, to say it just in summary terms.



You may have missed that I talked at length about Vecchiotti in the past. The Innocentisti were always desperate to reject the obvious evidence Vecchiotti was a liar.
Now, the "integrity" should be coupled with the "time" to answer, and the integrity of readers who always refused to acknowledge things that were shown to them

I have read most all of your posts. Needless to say , I don't agree with most of what yo say. But I appreciate your answers. I don't believe you can call C&V liars, and the Carabinieri called Stephony's findings unreliable due to non repeatability. Is everyone that rules in a manner that is good for the defendants a liar or criminal?
 
If Finzi saw the knife before he chose it, then it was not chosen at random.

From Massei: The knife was taken by Inspector Finzi, who testified that he had clean, new gloves and that, having opened the drawer where the tableware was kept, the first thing he saw was a large knife that was extremely clean. There were other knives in the drawer, but he took [only] this one, which became Exhibit 36. This knife was the first object he touched and it was located on top of all the tableware.

Again, though, you're missing the point about statistics. The question is not whether that knife was the murder weapon, the question is whether it was enough for Finzi to take one knife out of the drawer for testing without taking the entire contents of the drawer to compare to each other (...)


Sorry, nonsense. Any normal person sees that.
The event is as follows: all knives that could be a murder weapon were collected. No comparison: just all of them collected. Thoese ones, and only those ones collected. Not other tools, not steak knives not bread knives not forks. It's not difficult to understand.
 
I'll repeat it for the deaf ones, but only once: there was *no* selection of knives in the apartment. *No* choice.
Do you understand the concept: *no* selection.
All dangerous knives in the apartment, compatible with a stabbing, were picked and seized. Period.
*All* of them.

100 percent NOT TRUE. A total fabrication. There were two cooking knives, either that could have been easily used as a weapon. Both though are absurd to actually be used in this murder.
 
I have read most all of your posts. Needless to say , I don't agree with most of what yo say. But I appreciate your answers. I don't believe you can call C&V liars, and the Carabinieri called Stephony's findings unreliable due to non repeatability. Is everyone that rules in a manner that is good for the defendants a liar or criminal?

In Italy, you can call a defendant a liar all you want
If you are the defendant and get slapped around, you get three more years for reporting it.
 
I have read most all of your posts. Needless to say , I don't agree with most of what yo say. But I appreciate your answers. I don't believe you can call C&V liars,

Let's put aside the topic. But I maintain your belief is baseless.

and the Carabinieri called Stephony's findings unreliable due to non repeatability.

Her name is Stefanoni.
And what you claim, just never happened. The RIS never called Stefanoni's finding unreliable. Neither they ever called "unreliable" any other DNA profile finding. In particular they did not call "unreliable" any DNA profile of the kind found by Stefanoni on the knife.
In fact, the RIS themselves did not apply the best international prescription which require a minumum of three separate amplifications. They only run two of them. Despite the minimum suggested is three. Because, they explained, the best decision is a compromise between maximizing certainity of result and maximizing the probability of obtaining a result.
Exactly the identical answer given by Stefanoni.

Is everyone that rules in a manner that is good for the defendants a liar or criminal?

No. By the way, Conti and Vecchiotti are not supposed to "rule" anything.
 
Sorry, nonsense. Any normal person sees that.
The event is as follows: all knives that could be a murder weapon were collected. No comparison: just all of them collected. Thoese ones, and only those ones collected. Not other tools, not steak knives not bread knives not forks. It's not difficult to understand.
A couple of days ago Chris Halkides explained on this thread that it is not possible to remove blood from an item, and leave dna. At this moment I take this to be true, so that particular knife could not have had Meredith's profile as it lay in the drawer just before being seized.
What reasoning contributes to your belief it is the murder weapon, if what Chris says is correct science.
 
Lol. News reports are saying that the Italian judge thinks that Knox killed kercher because kercher interrupted an "intimate moment". In other words, Knox killed kercher for interrupting her sex.

I have to hand to these Italian judges: they are some creative perverts.
 
A couple of days ago Chris Halkides explained on this thread that it is not possible to remove blood from an item, and leave dna. At this moment I take this to be true, so that particular knife could not have had Meredith's profile as it lay in the drawer just before being seized.
What reasoning contributes to your belief it is the murder weapon, if what Chris says is correct science.

1. There is no need to have detectable amounts of blood, in order to have DNA. And there is no need to have find blood at all, in order to find a murder weapon. DNA is, by far greater concentration than blood, in any other possible tissue a murder weapon would retain: muscle cells, bone, chartilage, epitheliums etc.
2. It's not even remotely possible to detect blood on the scale of DNA detection though a TMB test. The amounts required to detect DNA are by may magnitudes smaller. DNA can be duplicated (its amount amplificated), hemoglobine cannot. TMB has a true detection threshold, not just cautionary conventions like DNA.
3. The DNA was extracted from a sample collected from thin scratches on the blade. Those scratches are visible in crime photographies. The defence denies even the existence of the scratches.
4. What Chris says isn't correct science (see 2.).
 
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Because, they explained, the best decision is a compromise between maximizing certainity of result and maximizing the probability of obtaining a result.
Exactly the identical answer given by Stefanoni.

Stefanoni had the best system for this. She took no precautions against contamination and then cranked her machines up high enough to detect DNA sloughed off the lips of an ant. Sure enough, she maximized her certainty of obtaining a result. It's the same result that we see in her contaminated controls.
 
The knives were seized. I don't know why not tested for DNA, but I have a few guesses. First, in the first place they didn't suspect of Knox being the murderer, they suspected a man. Second, these knives were unde a cover on a drawer bottom and visibly dirty. Third, and most important, because the victim's DNA had already been found on a murder weapon: the investigators "had" a murder weapon. But also, fourth, Meredith's DNA would have been irrelevant as evidence if found on kitchen knives inside her own home.PS: a knife was found in the ravine, picked and analyzed too.

This is a little like the mistakes in Nencini and Massei.

The knives weren't tested because Amanda wasn't a suspect and they had already found Meredith's DNA on the murder knife. Quite confusing. Does that mean there is another knife that has never come to light. It is light we are looking for, right? It could be the knife from Raf's because even you must admit by that time she was a suspect.

Even if no one from the cottage was a suspect (which we all know isn't true) why wouldn't one check the knives there for the prints and DNA of the perp?

Interesting that finding Meredith's DNA on a knife in her own home is meaningless. Sort of like finding Amanda's DNA in the bathroom or on the floors or just about anywhere in the cottage or for that matter on a knife in the home she was living in for 10 days. :rolleyes:

Mach maybe you're just a little tired from all your hard work.

There seem to be other knives that could have been used in Raf's drawer

knife.jpg
 
1. There is no need to have detectable amounts of blood, in order to have DNA. And there is no need to have find blood at all, in order to find a murder weapon. DNA is, by far greater concentration than blood, in any other possible tissue a murder weapon would retain: muscle cells, bone, chartilage, epitheliums etc.
2. It's not even remotely possible to detect blood on the scale of DNA detection though a TMB test. The amounts required to detect DNA are by may magnitudes smaller. DNA can be duplicated (its amount amplificated), hemoglobine cannot. TMB has a true detection threshold, not just cautionary conventions like DNA.
3. The DNA was extracted from a sample collected from thin scratches on the blade. Those scratches are visible in crime photographies. The defence denies even the existence of the scratches.
4. What Chris says isn't correct science (see 2.).

Do you claim to be more of an expert then Chris Halkides?
 
Sorry, nonsense. Any normal person sees that.
The event is as follows: all knives that could be a murder weapon were collected. No comparison: just all of them collected. Thoese ones, and only those ones collected. Not other tools, not steak knives not bread knives not forks. It's not difficult to understand.

This isn't actually how competent police work is done, because stab wounds are potentially compatible with a wide variety of weapons including steak knives. You don't just grab one knife that catches your eye and test only that, unless you're planning on doctoring the evidence and you know that in Italy it just doesn't matter how obvious you make it.
 
I'll repeat it for the deaf ones, but only once: there was *no* selection of knives in the apartment. *No* choice.
Do you understand the concept: *no* selection.
All dangerous knives in the apartment, compatible with a stabbing, were picked and seized. Period.
*All* of them.

Sorry, nonsense. Any normal person sees that.
The event is as follows: all knives that could be a murder weapon were collected. No comparison: just all of them collected. Thoese ones, and only those ones collected. Not other tools, not steak knives not bread knives not forks. It's not difficult to understand.

Apparently it is quite difficult to understand. To choose a specific knife because it looks to you like a murder weapon is analogous to choosing a redheaded person as a suspect because you think redheads are more likely to commit murder.

When Finzi chose the knife, it was not known whether Meredith had been killed with a box cutter or a straight razor. In Finzi's eyes, the kitchen knife looked like the most likely weapon. He had no other reason to choose it, as any evidence it might contain was invisible to the naked eye. That is bias, the opposite of random.

Mignini proves you wrong by virtue of the fact that he thought Raffaele's flick knife was the most likely murder weapon. The mystery is why he and Finzi were not on the same sheet of music about it.
 
DNA in the Duke lacrosse case

Are there any cases where DNA evidence has been used in a similar manner to this case where there is a close association between the defendants and the victim?
I am not sure, but I have been reexamining the DNA evidence in the Duke lacrosse case recently, and there is one item that resembles the bra clasp. There were some fake fingernails from the accuser that were recovered from the trashcan of the house at 610 N. Buchanan, rented by some of the seniors, including David Evans. A new (and poorly reasoned) book on the case, "The Price of Silence" tries to make something of the DNA results from this item of evidence.

We don’t have access to all of the data, but we can draw some tentative conclusions based on what Paul Giannelli presented in a chapter in the book "Race to Injustice." In the autosomal profile, I don’t disagree with the lab that David Evans cannot be excluded as a donor, but some locations clearly show that at least three individuals contributed DNA. In the Y-chromosomal testing, I don’t disagree with the lab that David Evans cannot be excluded as a donor. However, YSTR testing is not nearly as discriminating as autosomal testing (which uses multiple chromosomes). At least two other males contributed DNA to the sample (apparently not lacrosse players). This is problematic for the prosecution. If one acknowledges that this DNA arrived in a way unrelated to a sexual assault, then how is it possible to exclude the possibility that Evans’s DNA also arrived innocently?

In the case of the fingernails, they were in the trashcan for at least two days, and David Evans' tissue paper and dental floss were presumably in there as well. IMO (and from what I can infer about the State Laboratory's conclusion) secondary transfer is the most logical explanation for what is probably (but not certainly) Evans' DNA on the fake fingernails. The utter lack of DNA from the three accused players (including David Evans) in the rape kit, along with the DNA from up to four men (none of whom was a DL player) is strongly suggestive of innocence. Absence of evidence may not be the same thing as evidence of absence, but it is a very strong start in the DL case.
 
Budowle was an FBI scientist

Do you claim to be more of an expert then Chris Halkides?
I don't claim to be as much of an expert as Professor Bruce Budowle, who held an important position at the FBI before taking an academic position. His letter discusses this point thoroughly, and I provided a quote and a link separately today.
 
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<snip>Mach maybe you're just a little tired from all your hard work.

There seem to be other knives that could have been used in Raf's drawer

[qimg]http://aklwei.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/knife.jpg[/qimg]

Is that seriously Raffaele's drawer?

Well, as Massei wrote, "There were other knives in the drawer, but he took [only] this one,..."
 
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