Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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So it appears that we have Nencini completely ignoring the work of Conti and Vecchiotti, and also the Carabinieri forensics experts in order to involve the large kitchen knife divined from Raf's place. I can hardly wait to read his theory of how the knife got to the cottage. Legendary infamy awaits Nencini, Massei, Mignini, Commodi, Stefanoni, and many more. It is much too late for them to avoid it now. They deserve it, just like Benito deserves his.
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I'd completely forgotten about the RIS Carabinieri! One of the reasons for the ISC overturning Hellmann was that Hellmann allowed Vecchiotti to call the shots on 36i, saying it was useless to test it. The ISC said that Hellmann needed to be overturned because judges direct those sorts of issues, not the experts.

In a sense, perhaps the ISC then got this one right. So the RIS Carabinieri for Nencini's court DID test 36i. And it turned out that it DID reveal an interesting result.

It was Amanda's DNA. On the blade. Wa-hoo. More proof, really, that the knife had not been cleaned as the original police said it had. Still no incontrovertible sign of Meredith on that knife. (If 36i had been Meredith's, I would be a guilter.)

So perhaps the ISC was right on this issue to order a re-do. What is inexplicable is that Nencini convicts.... and I hope to Jesus Mary and Joseph he does not convict partly on the basis of 36i.

The man is already showing himself to be a dullard as a jurist. Why make a stupid claim about 36i and remove all doubt?
 
Because haemoglobin is far more resistant to cleaning than DNA. Because there are far more haemoglobin molecules in blood than DNA; one red blood cell contains about 270,000,000 haemoglobin molecules there are roughly a thousand red blood cells to one white blood cell containing a single copy of DNA. So you are 270 billion times more likely to have a haemoglobin molecule than a DNA profile. The tests for haemoglobin are of a similar order of sensitivity as tests for DNA. No haemoglobin (blood) was found anywhere on the knife. This makes it excessively unlikely any DNA found on the knife would relate to the murder even if it was used in the murder. Certainly the large amount of DNA of Knox on the handle must be unrelated to the murder even if the knife was used in the murder. I think that there is no evidence that the knife was used in the murder. Even accepting the alternate view, one can make no conclusions about who used it. Accepting it was used in the murder, the knife was Sollecito's and in his possession, that is it.

I think that the standards and problems around LCN DNA are well defined. The test on the blade of the knife met none of the standards. It was due to contamination. Because of allele drop out and in we cannot even be sure without replication that the contamination was from MK DNA. Once you are down to these levels of DNA the profile you get may not be a genuine reflection of the DNA tested, the sample needs to undergo replicate testing.

I have been trying to make this point for ages but without the requisite weight and numbers. Most blood consists of cells with no DNA at all.

I like the new guilter doctrine that well, it wasn't blood but just tissue, like er, skin or something. Well, I'm no expert but I think skin consists of cells (and tends to be all mixed up with capillaries with blood in them) and yet there are no slides of these cells in Stefanoni's work. That's because she undertook no cytology to look at what she had sampled and see what it was. Now, why would that be … ? It baffled C-V and I have yet to see anyone from the guilter side explain it.

Pending further reading and translation I take it we have a new double-standard for assessing scientific work. C-V get thrown out en bloc because they did not test 36I (a good judgment call since it yielded nothing of value) but Stefanoni survives despite the gaping holes in her work, her gross incompetence and bare-faced lies. Seems reasonable.
 
Grinder got after me many months ago for making this claim of the second breakin, 18 months after Rudy's breakin through Filomena's window. I searched to re-find the cite, so imagine my glee at reading the La Stampa author reference it.

From memory, some town clowns wanted to break in to the cottage to embarrass Mignini by doing a Satanic rite inside. Mignini had rrefused to allow bars to be put on Filomena's window so as to preserve the crime scene, but also perhaps because he truly thought they weren't needed.

The town tomfoolers showed him, as did Channel 4, or one of those annoying BBC outlets, when the kid demo'ed the ease of the climb, even with the now present bars.

As to why the mattress, I will not speculate because Grinder will demand a cite. Damn him.

Well, I suppose it might have been a good trophy from a pranksters POV. I just wondered about getting it out through the window, that was all. Anyway, we know it couldn't have happened because the climb is impossible and it's racist to suggest otherwise.

Who would be a guilter this morning having to defend this crap?
 
This is all very depressing. I knew the report was coming but it is still a shock.

I have nothing constructive to add that hasn't already been said by others.

I have an irrational dislike of Stefanoni.
 
LCN versus low template

Apparently LCN DNA has been used in a number of legal cases.
proudfootz,

Proper LCN DNA refers to a particular set of conditions for testing, not the least o which are special decontamination procedures performed in a dedicated facility with positive pressure hoods, among other features. What Stefanoni did was not LCN but her own variation of low template DNA work, using a protocol that has never appeared in the literature. Her lab was not even certified for standard profiling, let alone LCN work. The lack of negative controls and the refusal to release raw data under these circumstances are all the more reprehensible. I suggest reading some of the posts on low template DNA forensics within this thread so that you can catch up.
 
Well, I suppose it might have been a good trophy from a pranksters POV. I just wondered about getting it out through the window, that was all. Anyway, we know it couldn't have happened because the climb is impossible and it's racist to suggest otherwise.

Who would be a guilter this morning having to defend this crap?


If I'm not mistaken, some reports say the subsequent breakin was through the kitchen window. It should be possible to open the balcony door from the inside making the exit much easier.

But why steal the mattress?
 
Let's do...no let's not

A knife that matches the fatal wound, the only knife there, apparently recently scrubbed.
Match? Any sharp knife could have made that wound. I feel as if I just entered a time warp back to early 2010 on this thread. The knife had starch on it, and near the base of the blade, it did not look particularly clean.
 
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<snip>So, it wasn't 'random' then, was it?

A knife that matches the fatal wound, the only knife there, apparently recently scrubbed.

By 'random' you must mean 'the most likely murder weapon'.<snip>

You are correct, proudfootz. The knife was not chosen at random. It was chosen specifically for its dramatic appearance. The fact that it was not chosen at random is what renders it scientifically much weaker as evidence than it otherwise might have been.

The proper procedure would have been for all the kitchen knives from Raffaele's apartment to be tested for Meredith's DNA -- that is the only way that particular knife could be differentiated with scientific certainty from all the knives in his drawer. The chances that you can pick the correct knife out of a drawer of twenty knives are one in twenty, but if you test all the knives and the one you picked is the only one with Meredith's DNA on it, then you can be 100%, not 5%, certain you have the correct knife.

Of course there was no DNA of Meredith on that kitchen knife -- there probably was no DNA of Amanda on it either. The police had no business looking for a murder weapon in Raffaele's kitchen, but they realized that all of the knives in Amanda and Meredith's kitchen probably would have Meredith's DNA on them, which wouldn't solve anything for them (oddly, they didn't bother to test them for blood).

Why police looked for a kitchen knife at all defies explanation. They must not have known that Mignini and Matteini were operating on the theory that Raffaele's flick knife was the murder weapon, as Matteini wrote in her report on the 9th.

Interestingly, both knives were obtained on the 6th, but I believe the DNA results on Raffaele's knife came back before the results on the kitchen knife, which were revealed on the 16th. It's odd they didn't bother to just replace Raffaele's flick knife with the kitchen knife, as they would replace Lumumba with Guede. But they thought they still had Raffaele's shoes, and they didn't have anything on Amanda -- hence the "double DNA knife" with Amanda and Meredith's DNA.

ETA: On the 11th, Raffaele wrote, "They say that on the knife there are no traces of blood, so I am much more relaxed ... I cannot wait for the scientific results from Rome." (He is talking about his own knife.)

On the 16th, he wrote, "Last night I saw on television that the knife that I had at home (the
one from the kitchen) has traces of Meredith and Amanda (latent) ...my heart jumped in my throat and I was in total panic because I thought that Amanda had killed Meredith or had helped someone in the
enterprise. But today I saw Tiziano who calmed me down: he told me that the knife could not have been the murder weapon, according to the legal doctor..."

Can't find anything else on the flick knife.

Wow - it really was complicated!

"[Dr. Stephanoni] specified that trace B had been taken from a point on the face of the blade; she added that no biological trace was visible to the naked eye. However [she added that‚ "under considerable lighting, a series of streaks were visible to the naked eye. These streaks ran parallel to the upper part of the blade, therefore, more or less, they were parallel to this side [of the blade] and towards the point they went downward and, therefore, they followed the shape of the point. These streaks, anomalies in the metal, were visible to the naked eye under intense lighting" (page 95 of the transcript). Still in regard to the visibility of these streaks, she specified that they were "visible under good lighting by changing the angle at which the light hit the blade, since obviously the blade reflects light and thus creates shadows, making imperfections visible"."

The forensic scientist held it up to the light! :eek:

Such an unheard of method! :boggled:

No one ever used such an unprecedented technique before! :jaw-dropp

In the past it was always the practice to examine evidence in the dark?

What purpose does it serve to look at a knife under "intense lighting?" Streaks like that exist on every kitchen utensil and plate that has ever been used.

Here is something from Bill Williams' favorite reporter, Andrea Vogt:
Many outside observers believe the court should allow for such an independent review, given the number of protocol mistakes revealed in the first trial.

Defense attorneys and their expert witnesses heavily criticized the work of police biologist Patrizia Stefanoni and the Perugia and Rome forensic teams working under her direction for such missteps as not changing gloves after picking up evidence, poor collection methods and incomplete records of how evidence was handled and in what exact order during later laboratory testing.

No police labs in Italy had certification at the time since no national standards existed.
More than 100 pieces of physical evidence were introduced in the first trial, including footprints attributed to Knox and Sollecito that police say were made in the victim's blood and four spots of mixed DNA (blood from both Knox and the victim) found in an adjacent bathroom and bedroom.

But the two of the primary pieces of evidence against Knox and Sollecito are highly contested: A bra clasp originally catalogued in the first days after the murder that was picked up in a sweep of the crime scene 46 days later, and the kitchen knife with Knox's DNA found on the handle and the victim's DNA found on the blade. The bra clasp is said to contain Sollecito's DNA.

The amount of Kercher's DNA found on the blade was such a trace amount it registered with a "too low" reading when analyzed.

A top geneticist at one of Europe's top forensic labs at the University of Salzburg confirmed in an interview with seattlepi.com that it is possible to amplify such a small amount of DNA, as Stefanoni did, until DNA can be identified.

But the expert added that it would not be allowable unless the result could be reproduced, something police biologist Stefanoni said under cross-examination could not be done.
 
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An article in Wrongful Conviction News by Frank Sfarzo:

RULING BASED ON THE STATEMENTS OF CURATOLO AND OF RUDY GUEDE!!!!
THE BLADE BECOMES “31 CENTIMETERS LONG”!!!
ON IT NOW: “THE DNA OF MEREDITH KERCHER AND RAFFAELE SOLLECITO”!!!!!!
Kercher killed for “personal reasons of instantaneous type”!!
BONGIORNO: “AT LEAST TEN ERRORS PER PAGE.THIS RULING WILL BE CERTAINLY ANNULLED IN ROME”

Some random quotes - but better to read it yourselves:

“The proof of guilt is formed only if a different explanation is not reasonably conceivable.” And quotes Suprema Corte, 2010: “Conviction is possible only if there is not the minimum clue for a different hypothesis, which would be out of the natural order of things and of normal human rationality” –(so, let’s remember: the hypothesis that Guede committed the crime alone didn’t meet the minimum clue; it is out of the natural order of things and of human rationality).

“The only two possible hypotheses for Rudi Hermann Guede entering the house are either together with Amanda Marie Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, or because Meredith Kercher opened the door to him (it being excluded that he could have entered through the window). What counts is that both defendants and Rudi Hermann Guede, reasonably between 21:30-22:00, were present inside the cottage”.
It will be interesting to see how this was excluded given that it's what in fact happened. And now we have the time line.

Guede said that Meredith Kercher had discovered that money was missing from her room, and had immediately attributed that subtraction to Amanda Marie Knox” (and he believes Rudy Guede!). “And this was compatible only with a negative evaluation of the defendant by the victim.”
:jaw-dropp there are no words …

“The girl was attacked by all three. Rudi Hermann Guede didn’t hold any knife, using his hands to realize the sexual assault and to keep the victim immobilized.”
How came he by the cuts to his hands then?

“The knife, with a blade about 31 centimeters long” –(no, that’s from another movie! In this movie it’s only 17 cm)– was examined, and in some scratches almost imperceptible to the naked eye” –(very imperceptible since there weren’t any)– “was found the mixed DNA of Meredith Kercher and Raffaele Sollecito” –(you get an F!).

What the ****!!
 
Or there is gman case file

The motivation document (in Italian jurisprudence) attempts to explain the decision of the court. This document is in, and after hearing only the first assertion of the translated report, I can tell you that just that one argument has convinced me. Guilty is the proper verdict. I have never seen a more convincing, clear and irrefutable document. “Guilty” of a crime which still victimizes Meredith Kercher and her family. Guilty of a crime which is as old as mankind itself, and tears at the fabric of society: The court of Alessandro Nencini is guilty of Judicial Corruption.

The “motivation” document produced by Judge Nencini alleges that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito were able to do something that no criminal in the history of mankind has ever before been able to accomplish: Selectively clean up their own invisible DNA, leaving only the DNA of the man they wished to “frame.” To do so, they obviously had to possess the power to see DNA with their naked eyes, know whose it was (something the first Italian court famously couldn’t do with microscopes), and remove only their own. And most importantly, they had to clean the DNA from a bloody room without leaving a mark where the blood had been disturbed. This is like removing the underlying primer coat from a car’s paint without disturbing the paint job itself. It’s like doing a heart transplant through a sweat gland. It’s like removing Jesus from DaVinci’s masterpiece, “The Last Supper,” without anybody noticing. Even Batman’s foes never achieved this level of sophistication. You have to give Amanda and Raffaele credit for ingenuity. Or the Italian court credit for imagination.

The whole thing is worth a read. Not too long.
 
This retarded Italian court finds the Knife a murder weapon?

Its proven by all parties, there was no blood on it, then it was studied again and found it was not cleaned.

So the Italian system finds the knife Not Cleaned, No Blood on it....and Nencini uses it as the main murder weapon. This is like a poorly written unintelligent movie script, its not even interesting as its so ignorant logic. Its not even good lying.

Not cleaned, No blood.... how can anyone be too stupid to understand this isnt the murder weapon?
 
Oh God this guy is on the level of Knoxian SuperStar Ron Hendrey. What a crew.

Nencini simply states that a cleanup occurred.

Yes, but is 'simply stating' a clean up occurred when there is no evidence of one really good enough? Even without an expert?

Not to you particularly (since the chances of a meaningful answer are negligible) but I wonder whether these 'simple statements' are the result of a consideration of direct evidence or inference from the fact that they were there and committed the murder. I would like to see all the findings separated into two columns:

Facts established directly
Facts inferred

So, if there is a mop with hair and blood on it, we can put the clean up in the left column but if we are merely deducing the clean up from the fact established by other facts that they were there, then we put it in the right-hand column. In the right hand column it's not part of the case against them, just an inference that follows from the fact they have been proved guilty by other facts.

But if it is impossible to put an unevidenced clean up in the right hand column because an expert says so (and Steve Moore is better than anything you've got Vibio - especially as you have nothing, unless you are counting Kermit) then the facts from which we drew the inference that put it there have got to be wrong.

This exercise needs to be performed for all facts to make sure inferred facts are not being mistaken for directly proved facts and recursively used to prove other inferred facts when it turns out there are no facts but only an axiomatic premise that they committed the crime.
 
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This retarded Italian court finds the Knife a murder weapon?

Its proven by all parties, there was no blood on it, then it was studied again and found it was not cleaned.

So the Italian system finds the knife Not Cleaned, No Blood on it....and Nencini uses it as the main murder weapon. This is like a poorly written unintelligent movie script, its not even interesting as its so ignorant logic. Its not even good lying.

Not cleaned, No blood.... how can anyone be too stupid to understand this isnt the murder weapon?

I guess the knife goes in the left hand column since there is nothing from which to infer its use. If we are inferring knives then the murder weapon is in the drawer that Amanda rooted around in before crying and fainting. So the double DNA knife is directly proved to have been the murder weapon by the evidence of Stefanoni :boggled: But I think I am getting vibrations that the murder was not pre-meditated in Nencini's theory so we are back to wondering what the heck Amanda was lugging it around for.
 
a very low bar for what is meant by BARD

Curatolo?
Of course, no PG narrative has emerged that didn't contradict some of the evidence. However, even ignoring this problem for a moment, PM Mignini's version of what constitutes proving something beyond a reasonable doubt is absurdly low.
EDT
I read his version as saying something along the lines of, "The prosecution just has to come up with a story that hangs together."
 
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This bears repeating

Planigale,

Great post and link. Alan Jamieson wrote, "The issue of course is that if it cannot be established that the DNA has been introduced during the analysis, how can any of the DNA found in the crime stains be shown NOT to have come from the procedure rather than the scene?"
 
Can I interject a minute here on the subject of conspiracies. Contrary to the opinion of a new poster on the board, most of us think that there was no conspiracy to frame AK & RS. Many posters here have a pretty in-depth grasp of wrongful convictions more generally, and understand that the commonalities of these miscarriages of justice are also evident in this case (tunnel vision in the investigation, rush to judgement, false confession, sloppy forensic work, prosecution withholding evidence, dodgy eyewitnesses etc). None of this neccesitates a conscious conspiracy to frame - although it is possible that dubious methods were used to prop up the later investigation and prosecution. Once more with feeling: it is the prosecution and convicting judges' thinking that shares all the common elements with conspiracy thinking, NOT those who argue for innocence (with a few exceptions only).

I would argue even if we start from just stupidity, that the further along we go, the more likely it is to be a frame. The court just will not let go of the case against the evidence. They have to in effect find guilt.
 
This is all very depressing. I knew the report was coming but it is still a shock.

I would not say that there is any shock. . . .
I expected something very much like this.
From what I am able to understand, a motivation report with no real substance in spite of being extremely long and that goes against all logic.
 
Or there is gman case file



The whole thing is worth a read. Not too long.


I caught ABC this morning, and they were basically flabbergasted and LOL at the Italian Court's selective-DNA-cleanup thing.

Even Stefanopolis chimed in and said something to the effect of how can she possibly get extradited to these nut jobs.

I would say that if an extradition request does come around, this is going to be a major issue, framed around anti-American bias and federalism, so watch out. BTW, Bond v. US might be issued on Monday--they've been sitting on it for quite awhile, which means that it might be a biggie.
 
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