Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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information versus ammunition

Thanks Chris.
I will be able to use this in the comments sections.
Don't be surprised if they claim that Amanda deposited more money (the sums were in the hundreds of euros IIRC) in early November than she took out in late October. They may be correct with respect to the amounts themselves. In the pretzel-logic of the PG universe, this means that Amanda must have stolen Meredith's money. Charlie Wilkes was not able to get to the bottom of why the exact amounts were what they were, but I attach zero significance to the data.
 
Super - we will always be wanting some evidence whatever the Italian courts do. If I know the other pro-innocence posters here, they would drop any objection to conviction and heavy sentences if any real evidence were to emerge. That is certainly true for me.

I agree with Anglo. DNA/fingerprint/footprints in the murder room? CCTV showing them near the cottage? Evidence of psychopathic behavior in the past? I'd be the first one wanting them to fry...
 
The motivation report can only favour the defence, as it can provide grounds for appeal. For those who believe Sollecito and Knox are subject to a miscarriage of justice, that they have been wrongfully convicted is the essence of a miscarriage of justice. If conviction is confirmed by the ISC it will remain wrong. This is not a unique feature of Italian justice. In the UK it is recognised that despite undertaking all appeals wrongful convictions still occur and there is an 'extrajudicial' process to review cases.

I think the devil will be in the detail, and until a good translation is available we can just speculate. In addition I certainly do not know what the Italian legal system permits.

So just to speculate. The motivation of theft leaves room for appeal for all three. If there is no sexual motive then the charge should be simple homicide. For Guede this would be sixteen years reduced by the fast track appeal, such that he should now be released.

The use of Guede as witness against Knox when the statement was obtained from a police interview and not a witness statement in court and contradicted the Skype conversation where he said Knox was not present would seem grounds for appeal. The defence should have had a chance to cross examine a witness against their client. Since the witness said both Knox was present and absent there would need to be some grounds to justify which choice was made.

The statement that there was a planned meeting by Guede, Sollecito and Knox might be grounds for appeal, as there is no evidence for this. Alternatively as for the knife transport argument, this may be allowable under the Italian system as being a logical prequel to the evidence presented. Having established that Sollecito, Guede and Knox jointly committed a murder it is only logical to conclude that they must have arranged to meet. Just as having concluded that MK was murdered with the knife from Sollecito's flat there was a need for a logical prequel to explain the presence of the knife. The telephone records should establish that Guede did not contact (or vice versa) either Sollecito or Knox by telephone, letter would seem unlikely, especially as up until very shortly before both Knox and Sollecito expected to be elsewhere. Email is excluded as this would have been recorded. Popovic called on Sollecito about 20.20, so if Guede called round (even though he did not know Sollecito) to arrange a meeting it would need to be after that. If only the CCTV records had been preserved! So somehow we have an hour gap in which between Popovic leaving and Naruto playing Guede has to arrange a meet. Then Sollecito and Knox have to appear in the baseball court, without Guede who has already gone round to the flat, since he has to be present when Knox gets in to be confronted by MK over the missing money. Sollecito or Knox had to have brought over the knife. The telephones have to be played with and dumped. It is really very tight to fit in the argument, and allow it to escalate to murder during the duration of Guede's defaecation especially as he was not constipated.
 
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I've just got to the part on pages 36/37 (actually 40/41) where Nencini confirms that Rudy Guede's definitive conviction meant his court had to take as an "unavoidable point of reference" the "definitive procedural fact that Rudi Hermann Guede participated, together with others, in the murder of Meredith Kercher..."
 
I've just got to the part on pages 36/37 (actually 40/41) where Nencini confirms that Rudy Guede's definitive conviction meant his court had to take as an "unavoidable point of reference" the "definitive procedural fact that Rudi Hermann Guede participated, together with others, in the murder of Meredith Kercher..."
Don’t suppose you know how much time the defence teams have to raise their appeal against the Florence motivations? Not sure if it is 90 or 45 days.
 
Do they "salt" the machines before they run their tests? Do they schedule their tests in such a way so as to be able to pick up residue in successive tests? They must be doing something.

I'm not arguing the results shouldn't be excluded. I want to know how Stefanoni rigged the game.

I doubt that they salt their machines intentionally. But, we've already identified negative controls that show contamination in the PCR process. It's not at all a stretch for some of the STR amplifications to have become contaminated, and for that contamination to be picked up as a profile if she was increasing the number of amplification cycles that she was running, which I bet dollars to donuts she did.
 
I've just got to the part on pages 36/37 (actually 40/41) where Nencini confirms that Rudy Guede's definitive conviction meant his court had to take as an "unavoidable point of reference" the "definitive procedural fact that Rudi Hermann Guede participated, together with others, in the murder of Meredith Kercher..."

Wow. I'm frankly amazed that he would come right out and say such a thing.
 
I've just got to the part on pages 36/37 (actually 40/41) where Nencini confirms that Rudy Guede's definitive conviction meant his court had to take as an "unavoidable point of reference" the "definitive procedural fact that Rudi Hermann Guede participated, together with others, in the murder of Meredith Kercher..."

There we have it.

To repeat, Rudy's process was a fast-track, meaning that the trial phase was missing. All "evidence" therefore was the result of stipulations agreed to by Rudy's side and Mignini.

Without Sollecito or Knox represented. They were convicted at a trial Nencini did not preside over.

Stilicho, over to you.
 
I doubt that they salt their machines intentionally. But, we've already identified negative controls that show contamination in the PCR process. It's not at all a stretch for some of the STR amplifications to have become contaminated, and for that contamination to be picked up as a profile if she was increasing the number of amplification cycles that she was running, which I bet dollars to donuts she did.

Fair enough, but it has to be premeditated. She has to know the desired profile is already going to turn up if she pushes the machines hard enough.

Also, the idea of limited samples, and irreproducible results. Works better for the prosecution if the results can't be verified, right? Damaged & degraded samples that can't be retested, better not to have a retest that can go against you.

Wish this process were open and transparent. BUt it seems obvious that a lab tech that commits perjury on the witness stand, and repeatedly withholds data that makes it impossible to verify their work, isn't playing straight.
 
Dictionary of Italian Procedural Terms

What is a 'procedural' fact?

My Guess: A fact that cannot be questioned for the purposes of the legal proceeding in which it is recognized, regardless of whether it is contradicted by other facts or evidence in this or other proceedings.
 
Machiavelli will know. Sounds like a "stipulation" does it not?

But a stipulation is something that is agreed upon as fact by all parties. I doubt if the defense would stipulate on this. Unless they mean a stipulation from Guede's trial where the his defense *did* agree to that. ??
 
But a stipulation is something that is agreed upon as fact by all parties. I doubt if the defense would stipulate on this. Unless they mean a stipulation from Guede's trial where the his defense *did* agree to that. ??

Yup, that's what it means. This is something stipulated at Guede's fast track. It has nothing to do with Amanda or Raffaele's trials. Both Guede's side (the defence at the fast-track) and the prosecution (Mignini) agreed to multiple attackers as a fact. This was to Guede's benefit because otherwise the evidence placed him there, and there was a possibility that he'd be placed there alone.

By stipulating to multiple attackers, he could eventually get another court to buy his story that he was simply an "impolite" presence at Meredith's, but that it was really someone else who did the deed due to a dispute over, let's see.... what would roomies be in conflict over.... oh yes, rent money.

Not that there would be a court who'd rule that this was plausible.... ooops, that's what Nencini ruled!

All based on the "procedural fact" that there were multiple attackers. Not an examination of evidence during the trial phase of actual trial, but as something Guede admitted to (probably under lawyer's advice).

There we have it. Nencini saying, "I was only following orders."
 
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My Guess: A fact that cannot be questioned for the purposes of the legal proceeding in which it is recognized, regardless of whether it is contradicted by other facts or evidence in this or other proceedings.

In ordinary usage, the sentence which gives it meaning would be something like, "It is simply a procedural fact that a simple majority vote decides the issue." Or in Nencini's case, "it is a procedural fact that there were multiple attackers, not because there was something at my trial which demonstrated it."

At least Massei struggled with the concept, and said that the clincher for him was that he'd found factual that Amanda and Raffaele had staged the crime scene, and that these "stagers" had a motive to do this because they'd been involved in the crime.

Note - the staging was not proven either.... but don't let us stop the railroad for that....
 
Machiavelli will know. Sounds like a "stipulation" does it not?

My Guess: A fact that cannot be questioned for the purposes of the legal proceeding in which it is recognized, regardless of whether it is contradicted by other facts or evidence in this or other proceedings.

But a stipulation is something that is agreed upon as fact by all parties. I doubt if the defense would stipulate on this. Unless they mean a stipulation from Guede's trial where the his defense *did* agree to that. ??

It's a fact decided in some other guy's trial.

Good answers.
 
This came to mind from The Machine 5 days ago.

I expect the Supreme Court to confirm the verdicts in the autumn. Sollecito will be back in the slammer before Christmas and Knox will be on the sex offenders' register and fighting extradition.

I take it he will retract this as a disciple of the infallibilty of Italian judges.

ETA I missed this

Once the assault became sexual, and in the face of the victim's resistance, the attackers decided to end Meredith's life in order to silence her and thereby escape punishment
 
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After the Supreme Court of Italy saying that the accusation against Lumumba could not be used against Sollecito and Knox, Nencini ruled that the accusation was indispensible for understanding the crime:

The judge also reasoned that Knox's false accusation of her former boss, Patrick Lumumba, whom she accused of the killing the night she was arrested, proved her guilt.
Lumumba spent nearly two weeks in prison without Knox correcting her false accusation. He was released when Guede was arrested after his fingerprints were found in at the murder scene.
Nencini wrote that the accusation against Lumumba was "indispensable in understanding the crime" and that the accusation "cannot be separated from the murder."​

See: http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/29/world/europe/italy-amanda-knox/index.html?hpt=hp_inthenews

Nencini also returns to Mixed blood/DNA.... acc. to this CNN report.
 
In post 4760 by Diocletus, there's a picture of an annular blood droplet, can someone enlighten me as to where it came from?
Is it evidence from this case or is it being used as an example?
Because if you go to picture 35 of this slideshow they look remarkably similar.
 
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