At 9pm, based on witness evidence, she was statistically extremely late for gastric emptying, so one argument would be latest time for commencement of GE is roughly the same as earliest TOD, or about 9pm.Yes, thanks for chiming in. Speaking of which, what was that outside TOD again, based on digestion?
Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case
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carbonjam72
Master Poster
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Since there was no gastric emptying at TOD, doesn't this mean latest time for gastric emptying also means latest TOD?
Bill Williams
Penultimate Amazing
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I apologize if it was edgy.
There is some distaste on this forum for truce-crime authors. True crime style abandons the need for a rigourous footnoting, when the individual author's talent, really, is to write a more freeflowing narrative.
For instance John Follain and Candace Dempsey purposely chose this style because they wanted to communicate the overall results of their "research".
The trouble with the style is when it hits forums like this, which want more clarity on individual assertions. Some write off, then, the true crime genre all together.
Others, older and wiser, use another clue as to the veracity of those individual claims - they ask the authors. Some authors reply. Others don't. When an author responds 5 or six times on differing issues, and their sources bear out, then one tends to stop contacting them.... because it is not mandatory really that they reply.
It's hard to know what to make of true-crime authors who don't.
anglolawyer
Banned
Nice formulation. You're not sure he didn't. What does that mean? Do you think he did? That would be three people involved in this nothing burglary of a students' flat. Really? A driver (what did they need one for?) and an accomplice (for what?) and Rudy.
I agree about almost everything else except, for these cops, framing people they think are guilty is standard and doesn't require any change of gear when they realise they're not.
carbonjam72
Master Poster
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Beautiful. Now, when do you believe the framing began against Amanda and Raf?
Do you agree the interrogation was pre-planned and designed to soften them up from the outset, i.e. day 1, culminating 4-5 days later in the full on tag-team press with a dozen agents from Rome in the dark of night?
And, do you have a position on whether the immediate claim of 'staged break-in' is honestly stupid, or to cover up in case Guede is responsible and they screwed up in letting him remain free?
RWVBWL
Master Poster
20 or 50, his SIM and a new screensaver...
Hi Grinder,
You're welcome, it's the truth we seek, right?
But check this out, it's from the Massei-Cristiani Report:
Link:
http://masseireport.wordpress.com/contents/rudy-hermann-guede/
20 Euro sounds more realistic to me, but...
Hi ACbyTesla,
If my memory serves me correct, didn't Rudy say that he bought the laptop and cell phone from someone at a train station while visiting in Milan?
And then he was busted with it soon afterwards there too, when caught inside the nursery school in the morning in an office trying to get connected on the internet, right?
An interesting tidbit was that Rudy, after allegedly purchasing the laptop while in Milan,
had already set this picture of himself with Armani as his laptop background, as shown on old Perugia Shock:
Being as he was far from home, I wonder where the image was stored at before he transferred it to the stolen laptop if he was trying to get connected online that morning?
Also, Rudy seems to have replaced the SIM card of the stolen lawyers phone with his own, which was in his own name and he'd had it a long time. I wonder where his SIM came from? His back pocket? A cheapie that he owned himself or some other cell phone? I don't seem to recall reading that Guede had 2 cell phones on him when the police showed up at the nursery school.
Lastly,
I find it weird that Rudy did not try to escape when he was found inside the nursey school. Reading the English translation of his 2nd interrogation last night, he even asks school director Maria Del Pratto to call the police!
I wonder why?
Was Guede gonna show them a paid receipt to stay at the nursery?
Or have them call in his get-outta-jail-for-free card with ILE?
Weird dude, that Guede...
Link: Pages 35-37
http://murderofmeredithkercher.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/RG-Transcript.pdf
Hi Grinder,
You're welcome, it's the truth we seek, right?
But check this out, it's from the Massei-Cristiani Report:
Link:
http://masseireport.wordpress.com/contents/rudy-hermann-guede/
20 Euro sounds more realistic to me, but...
Hi ACbyTesla,
If my memory serves me correct, didn't Rudy say that he bought the laptop and cell phone from someone at a train station while visiting in Milan?
And then he was busted with it soon afterwards there too, when caught inside the nursery school in the morning in an office trying to get connected on the internet, right?
An interesting tidbit was that Rudy, after allegedly purchasing the laptop while in Milan,
had already set this picture of himself with Armani as his laptop background, as shown on old Perugia Shock:
Being as he was far from home, I wonder where the image was stored at before he transferred it to the stolen laptop if he was trying to get connected online that morning?
Also, Rudy seems to have replaced the SIM card of the stolen lawyers phone with his own, which was in his own name and he'd had it a long time. I wonder where his SIM came from? His back pocket? A cheapie that he owned himself or some other cell phone? I don't seem to recall reading that Guede had 2 cell phones on him when the police showed up at the nursery school.
Lastly,
I find it weird that Rudy did not try to escape when he was found inside the nursey school. Reading the English translation of his 2nd interrogation last night, he even asks school director Maria Del Pratto to call the police!
I wonder why?
Was Guede gonna show them a paid receipt to stay at the nursery?
Or have them call in his get-outta-jail-for-free card with ILE?
Weird dude, that Guede...
Link: Pages 35-37
http://murderofmeredithkercher.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/RG-Transcript.pdf
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I'll try again. Earliest time of death, 9pm is very late for GE commencement, scientifically and statistically. Therefore it is highly likely she was killed when she arrived home, therefore Rudy was already inside, therefore he broke in.
RWVBWL
Master Poster
A question for you folks regarding the lawyers stolen cell phone and Rudy Guede's SIM.
The lawyers office break-in occurred on the night of Sat. Oct. 13 to Sun. Oct. 14, 2007.
Among other items, a cell phone was stolen.
Rudy Guede was in Milan on Oct. 24, 2007. He stayed there, at a friends place, until his last night in town, the night of Oct 26-27, when he rented a place to sleep in the nursery school. The police showed up in the morning, and confiscated the phone, amongst other items.
I don't know anything about how SIM's work.
Seeing as the phone had Rudy Guede's own long time SIM in it that was in his own name,
would it possibly show up on the SIM card that it was the stolen lawyers phone that had made calls or received calls with Rudy's SIM before Oct. 24th, when he says he got to Milan, and I assume, purchased the phone?
Just wondering...
The lawyers office break-in occurred on the night of Sat. Oct. 13 to Sun. Oct. 14, 2007.
Among other items, a cell phone was stolen.
Rudy Guede was in Milan on Oct. 24, 2007. He stayed there, at a friends place, until his last night in town, the night of Oct 26-27, when he rented a place to sleep in the nursery school. The police showed up in the morning, and confiscated the phone, amongst other items.
I don't know anything about how SIM's work.
Seeing as the phone had Rudy Guede's own long time SIM in it that was in his own name,
would it possibly show up on the SIM card that it was the stolen lawyers phone that had made calls or received calls with Rudy's SIM before Oct. 24th, when he says he got to Milan, and I assume, purchased the phone?
Just wondering...
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RWVBWL
Master Poster
Greetings all,
I'm curious about something that I read last night in the English translation of Rudy Guede's 2nd Interrogation with PM Mignini:
Attorney: I wanted to formalize a few requests Mr. Prosecutor together with my colleague,
primarily because from what we formally conclude also
from our consultant who is working with us, Attorney Biscotti for Rudy’s
defense in conjunction with Attorney Gentile, we wish to formalize
these requests. Given that we also don’t have specific information
from our consultant who is working at the Scientific Police in Rome,
we ask formally that that towel is analyzed, the one Rudy refers to
that we identify in the photographs of the scene of the crime
covered in blood. Given that Rudy informs us that that towel that he
used, we ask that it is, if not already, because alongside this object
we don’t see either markers nor letters nor anything else so we also
imagine that they have not been analyzed, I produce, or better, I
exhibit a photo of this towel, now I wouldn’t be able to identify it with
the exact number but it’s the towel that you see below the duvet.
Pros. Mignini Can I see it?
Attorney: Which is certainly one of the two towels, one of the two towels that
Rudy says to have…
Profazio: What checks would you like us to carry out?
Attorney: We want to know if on there, there is Meredith’s blood
Profazio: If there are Rudy’s fingerprints…
Attorney: Seeing as he hurt himself many times, if there is also Rudy’s blood… I exhibit…
Pros. Mignini: Produce
Attorney: I exhibit because it’s already in the case files of the Prosecutor…
today is 26 March 2008. Obviously we refer to this but we ask that all
the towels are examined… all the towels… only because we don’t
see… seeing as some objects are indicated with letters and
collected we fear that it hasn’t been collected. In order to avoid
requesting a “Incidente Probatorio” [Special evidence pretrial
hearing], for this formal request by the defense I urge that the
Prosecutor, the Prosecutor’s office, takes an active part in requesting
the analysis of this thing. It could be that it has already been
examined… similarly we ask that the Prosecutor’s office, just because
we’ve had a lot of difficulty… difficulty in obtaining, seeing as Rudy
told us that in Germany there were photos taken of his hands
because he told us “I have some cuts”… eh these photos have been
taken, there was a fax sent to us from Germany which confirms to us
that there are these photos, so we ask that the Prosecutor acquires
them to avoid that we have to do it which becomes more
complicated, we have tried to do it of course, we have also said that
it has to be done through Judge Matteini’s office… it doesn’t matter
how, as long as it is done. We formally give some ideas, there is for us, it becomes complicated… when this witness goes down, goes down the steps he says he saw a person who was complaining about his car, so he was certainly there. Seeing as we have nothing to fear, nothing to fear, surely that person can have seen something of use. Seeing as the black man may have seen him pass by, not only is it possible that Rudy doesn’t remember to have passed this person on the steps, but he may have seen other things. He was at the scene of the crime… he was near the scene of the crime… so seeing as, I repeat we have nothing to fear, we request the Prosecutor’s office that it takes an active part in order to trace this person, and the tow truck that he called.
Does anybody know what Guede's lawyer is talking about?
Rudy says he passed by the guy with the broken down car when he split?
Thoughts?
RW
I'm curious about something that I read last night in the English translation of Rudy Guede's 2nd Interrogation with PM Mignini:
Attorney: I wanted to formalize a few requests Mr. Prosecutor together with my colleague,
primarily because from what we formally conclude also
from our consultant who is working with us, Attorney Biscotti for Rudy’s
defense in conjunction with Attorney Gentile, we wish to formalize
these requests. Given that we also don’t have specific information
from our consultant who is working at the Scientific Police in Rome,
we ask formally that that towel is analyzed, the one Rudy refers to
that we identify in the photographs of the scene of the crime
covered in blood. Given that Rudy informs us that that towel that he
used, we ask that it is, if not already, because alongside this object
we don’t see either markers nor letters nor anything else so we also
imagine that they have not been analyzed, I produce, or better, I
exhibit a photo of this towel, now I wouldn’t be able to identify it with
the exact number but it’s the towel that you see below the duvet.
Pros. Mignini Can I see it?
Attorney: Which is certainly one of the two towels, one of the two towels that
Rudy says to have…
Profazio: What checks would you like us to carry out?
Attorney: We want to know if on there, there is Meredith’s blood
Profazio: If there are Rudy’s fingerprints…
Attorney: Seeing as he hurt himself many times, if there is also Rudy’s blood… I exhibit…
Pros. Mignini: Produce
Attorney: I exhibit because it’s already in the case files of the Prosecutor…
today is 26 March 2008. Obviously we refer to this but we ask that all
the towels are examined… all the towels… only because we don’t
see… seeing as some objects are indicated with letters and
collected we fear that it hasn’t been collected. In order to avoid
requesting a “Incidente Probatorio” [Special evidence pretrial
hearing], for this formal request by the defense I urge that the
Prosecutor, the Prosecutor’s office, takes an active part in requesting
the analysis of this thing. It could be that it has already been
examined… similarly we ask that the Prosecutor’s office, just because
we’ve had a lot of difficulty… difficulty in obtaining, seeing as Rudy
told us that in Germany there were photos taken of his hands
because he told us “I have some cuts”… eh these photos have been
taken, there was a fax sent to us from Germany which confirms to us
that there are these photos, so we ask that the Prosecutor acquires
them to avoid that we have to do it which becomes more
complicated, we have tried to do it of course, we have also said that
it has to be done through Judge Matteini’s office… it doesn’t matter
how, as long as it is done. We formally give some ideas, there is for us, it becomes complicated… when this witness goes down, goes down the steps he says he saw a person who was complaining about his car, so he was certainly there. Seeing as we have nothing to fear, nothing to fear, surely that person can have seen something of use. Seeing as the black man may have seen him pass by, not only is it possible that Rudy doesn’t remember to have passed this person on the steps, but he may have seen other things. He was at the scene of the crime… he was near the scene of the crime… so seeing as, I repeat we have nothing to fear, we request the Prosecutor’s office that it takes an active part in order to trace this person, and the tow truck that he called.
Does anybody know what Guede's lawyer is talking about?
Rudy says he passed by the guy with the broken down car when he split?
Thoughts?
RW
What I like about this story is that the investigating police officer complained to the forensic lab. The forensic lab carried out a formal investigation (accepting that contamination occurs), identified a previously overlooked source of contamination, and took action to try and prevent this happening again.
anglolawyer
Banned
The framing began on the 6th at the latest. The interrogation was not planned on day 1 (but why can't we have disclosure of internal notes and memoranda briefing for it and fixing it up - oh, sorry, I forgot, Manuela decides what's relevant). They really did think the break-in was staged because no one could climb that high and nothing was stolen.
codyjuneau
Muse
codyjuneau
Muse
.
But Grinder, upper floor break ins must NEVER happen in Perugia. Every cop in the prosecution team was sure it was an impossible task to climb a grate to get in an upper story window, maybe doable with a team of Sherpas assisting, but never by a lone burglar.
They no doubt surmised the break in at the law office was staged and Rudy was just some poor dupe that bought goods the lawyers had pawned to some one. Poor Rudy! And I am sure he was duped into thinking the nursery school he was staying at was a bed and breakfast. Poor Rudy!
.
anglolawyer
Banned
Was it Samson who had the image of the golfer holing his approach on the 18th to take it to a play off? I like that! They did that with the knife. They also holed in one at the first sudden death extra hole when they 'found' the bra clasp.
I know this has been said before and I'm not claiming it's original but given that Amanda broke down in tears when asked to check all the kitchen knives were still there (a key moment in the investigation!) surely that was a clue that ought to have induced them to test those knives. That they did not must be assigned to something. Was it mind-blowing incompetence or just fraud? Is there a third possibility? What is it? Supercal is an expert on possibility. Maybe s/he has a theory.
I know this has been said before and I'm not claiming it's original but given that Amanda broke down in tears when asked to check all the kitchen knives were still there (a key moment in the investigation!) surely that was a clue that ought to have induced them to test those knives. That they did not must be assigned to something. Was it mind-blowing incompetence or just fraud? Is there a third possibility? What is it? Supercal is an expert on possibility. Maybe s/he has a theory.
codyjuneau
Muse
.
Sure they can. All that is needed is for the Milan cops to dig up the gold ladies watch they confiscated from Rudy and show it to Ms Diaz. Even a picture would do if they have already given it to a girlfriend or something.
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codyjuneau
Muse
.
Brilliant questions RW. Odds are he installed the picture and SIM before he went to Milan, which would of course expose his story of buying the computer and cell phone while in Milan as a lie.
.
codyjuneau
Muse
.
CJ72, I really like reading your posts. You have lots of interesting viewpoints and insights.
.
CJ72, I really like reading your posts. You have lots of interesting viewpoints and insights.
.
The thought came to me from watching on television, so often, and every one but the best club house score wants the drama, but it always fizzles yards to feet, even inches from the hole.
But c'mon it happened twice with the dna. Two hole outs from the fairway. Surely it stinks to high heaven.
Even accidental contamination twice doesn't fly statistically.
Something else explains it when Amanda, Raffaele and the knife weren't there.
ETA I possibly agree with Grinder that framing and conspiracy talk may be counterproductive for informing the American public pre extradition talk.
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icerat
Philosopher
Might deserve it's own thread, but here's another interesting Italian case - a British women who supposedly committed suicide by stabbing herself to death in the neck.
I've not been able to find much english language information on the case. This early report in Italian says she was stabbed in the neck 10 times, another says she managed to struggle to the door and call for help.
Sounds very odd.
I've not been able to find much english language information on the case. This early report in Italian says she was stabbed in the neck 10 times, another says she managed to struggle to the door and call for help.
Sounds very odd.
Sounds very Italian. I particularly like this bit
Investigators concluded that Claire used a knife from her own apartment to stab herself, picking a sharp blade that would not cause much pain, and hid the knife before dying.
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