Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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It can't be used in any case. He is not reliable BUT if they insist on using him then he gives an alibi.

Well there is more evidence against Raf. I don't agree with it but they say his foot print in blood is on the mat. His DNA was on the the bra clasp and the knife was his. Amanda's prints on a knife from the kitchen she was living in means nothing.

What science based forensics precludes him?

It's at least as serious as Napoleoni saw that Amanda could be framed by the ILE and Rudi could be protected. By the accounts we know anything about Rudi broke into the lawyers' with an entry that didn't include a grate but did include an alarm. The idea that his MO would be recognized by the head of the homicide squad seem absurd.

"Gee we have a rogue informant that has killed an English girl let's pin it on the American girl" just doesn't make any sense.

They say his footprint was on the mat. They certainly did not prove that it was anyone's footprint. They also "claim" that Rudy's DNA was on the bra clasp. A fact that was never verified by independent experts as it was ruined by sloppy procedures. A "claim" that also included 3 or was it 4 other male contributors. A piece of evidence that broke any reasonable chain of custody and showed detectives with dirty gloves passing it around like a bottle of wine between bums.

As for what science "precludes" them there is the digestive evidence. Granted, this evidence is not 100 percent clear, but there is the lack of footprints, DNA or fingerprints of either of the two defendants in the murder room while at the same time, Rudy Guede left 5 samples of his DNA including in the victims purse and vagina, 9 identifiable shoe prints and 1 identifiable palm print.

So there are 16 pieces of physical evidence that ties Rudy Guede to the murder room. In contrast despite the fact that Amanda lived in the same house and probably had come into Meredith's bedroom many times, nothing ties her to the murder room. Other pieces of "tangible" evidence is Rudy's neighbor, the Naruto download at 9:26, the strange phone evidence at 9:58, 10:00 and 10:13 as well as Rudy Guede's own words on a Skype call.

Then of course there is the whole missing evidence of a connection to Rudy Guede. No calls, no texts, no photos, no emails.

What there is, is a mountain or at least a very tall hill of evidence against Rudy Guede and a virtually nothing against Amanda and Raffaele...just wild conjecture, speculation and a whole lot of "maybes" and "compatibles" etc..etc...etc.
 
Machiavelli, way, way upthread, as much as said this.... that this is the proper procedure in Perugia.

When Amanda Knox was charged with defmation for her claim that she was hit during interrogation, it feel to (IIRC) Comodi to investigate and lay charges against Napoleoni, Ficara, et al.....

It is not hard to imaging Comodi saying the same thing, "I decide if an investigation and eventual charges are warranted. I thought about it for a second and it was so useless.... "

I am not sure where I am on the issue of a purposeful railroading and subsequent purposeful cover-up of Sollecito and Knox. But there was most certainly investigative myopia - getting stuck on one theory and pressing on regardless. Then when the theory changed, it was yet another mutually exclusive motive from the previous ones, chasing the evidence as it disappeared.... it's supposed to be the other way around.
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Yeah, it is interesting that Massei essentially invented his own scenario, non-premeditated, Amanda just happened to be carrying a large kitchen knife in her purse for protection, Amanda and Raf joined Rudy's assault on Meredith because of lust, Amanda thought to run back and fetch this large kitchen knife from her purse because one knife wasn't enough and a kitchen knife from the kitchen would not suffice, known burglar Rudy would never break in to a residence where he knew the occupants but was okay with murdering one of them if invited in, and on and on. This is the scenario, completely unsupported by evidence, that judge Massei used to convict, and yet none of the prosecutors wants to touch it with a ten foot pole so each invents their own. The current one thinks that a dispute over an unflushed toilet is a better scenario. An Italian parody of justice based on nothing but vivid imaginations. They should get jobs as screen writers for 30 Rock or Saturday Night Live. Perhaps for Nencini's motivation report they will all line up with big grinning faces on youtube, and yell "Welcome to Saturday Night Live from Italy!!!".
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Yeah, it is interesting that Massei essentially invented his own scenario, non-premeditated, Amanda just happened to be carrying a large kitchen knife in her purse for protection, Amanda and Raf joined Rudy's assault on Meredith because of lust, Amanda thought to run back and fetch this large kitchen knife from her purse because one knife wasn't enough and a kitchen knife from the kitchen would not suffice, known burglar Rudy would never break in to a residence where he knew the occupants but was okay with murdering one of them if invited in, and on and on. This is the scenario, completely unsupported by evidence, that judge Massei used to convict, and yet none of the prosecutors wants to touch it with a ten foot pole so each invents their own. The current one thinks that a dispute over an unflushed toilet is a better scenario. An Italian parody of justice based on nothing but vivid imaginations. They should get jobs as screen writers for 30 Rock or Saturday Night Live. Perhaps for Nencini's motivation report they will all line up with big grinning faces on youtube, and yell "Welcome to Saturday Night Live from Italy!!!".
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It's these sorts of observations which make Judge Massei's scenario so unbelievable. But let's go back to the Italian method of judging guilt or innocence... as per Judge Micheli's, "We don't need evidence, we just need to look at things logically."

This is not even logical. Judge Massei has Amanda and Raffaele messing around in the room next to Meredith's. Then they hear a commotion, acc. to Massei, which is not the commotion of Rudy Guede and Meredith messing around in a consensual manner. (Presumably this is what Judge Massei meant when he said his court did not believe that Amanda urged Rudy along, that Rudy's known lust alone was sufficient.)

Then when hearing this commotion which was indicating something non-consensual going on, Amanda and Raffaele go in to investigate, and inexplicably (even to Massei who views them as normal, unmarred by psychopathology, people) Sollecito and Knox take Rudy's side against Meredith in a "choice for evil".

Then...... as you point out..... Amanda has to run back to her purse where the kitchen knife supposedly is to retrieve it.

Is that believable much less logical? To get THAT knife, when they're already making a spontaneous decision to wreck havoc that is well along the way, since Rudy started it and Meredith presumably was well into resisting?

Now, the Nencini court is perched to say that the location of 36i (sample on the blade belonging to Amanda) is proof that Amanda used the knife in a murderous motion, rather than in a culinary motion..... is THAT believable much less logical?

You see, none of this even fits Micheli's standard, that evidence be damned, it just has to be a logical scenario.
 
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From Ground Report, an exact time-line of the interrogation, including the softening up process used against Sollecito and Knox in the days before it.

http://groundreport.com/amanda-and-raffaele-the-illegal-interrogations/

Two points to keep in mind. One reason why the PLE could go with an "in house" interpretor, and not a real one, was because Amanda Knox was deemed to already speak acceptable Italian.

The statement famously claimed that Amanda, a novice of conversational Italian and completely ignorant of Italian legalese, “adequately understands and speaks the Italian language.” Amanda later lamented, “What was I thinking?” She could barely speak the language, yet somehow thought she could muddle through talking to cops about a murder.....

Mignini, Ficarra and Donnino are witnesses, the statement is written in Italian and, like the First, contains the phrase “despite adequately understanding and speaking the Italian language” is assisted by an interpreter.

I understand this little nugget to mean that because Amanda “understood” Italian, she could be “assisted” by the police in-house interpreter instead of an accredited interpreter with knowledge of foreign law. Apparently Donnino is under qualified, even with her 22 years of experience, and considered biased as well since she worked for the police department.

The other is the testimony of both Mignini and Knox, that Mignini told her she did not need a lawyer, because that would look like she was not cooperating.
 
One thing that is noteworthy - have you ever noticed that guilters/haters NEVER do these sorts of timelines? John Follain is perhaps an exception, but his version of the interrogation is about 2 pages, which leaves one with the impression that the reason Amanda "cracked" was because they were bringing her too much camomile tea and biscuits. He leaves it at that.

Then again, we can just check the audio- or video-tapes of the interrogation to compare and see who is correct.
 

I'm curious why you are confused Dan? The existence of the DNA on the bra clasp was not confirmed by Conti and Vechiotti as Stefanoni stored the bra clasp in a plastic bag and the clasp rusted. So in fact all the prosecution put forward was a claim that Stefanoni found Raffaele's DNA on the bra clasp.

Am I making sense now?
 
It's these sorts of observations which make Judge Massei's scenario so unbelievable. But let's go back to the Italian method of judging guilt or innocence... as per Judge Micheli's, "We don't need evidence, we just need to look at things logically."

This is not even logical. Judge Massei has Amanda and Raffaele messing around in the room next to Meredith's. Then they hear a commotion, acc. to Massei, which is not the commotion of Rudy Guede and Meredith messing around in a consensual manner. (Presumably this is what Judge Massei meant when he said his court did not believe that Amanda urged Rudy along, that Rudy's known lust alone was sufficient.)

Then when hearing this commotion which was indicating something non-consensual going on, Amanda and Raffaele go in to investigate, and inexplicably (even to Massei who views them as normal, unmarred by psychopathology, people) Sollecito and Knox take Rudy's side against Meredith in a "choice for evil".
Then...... as you point out..... Amanda has to run back to her purse where the kitchen knife supposedly is to retrieve it.

Is that believable much less logical? To get THAT knife, when they're already making a spontaneous decision to wreck havoc that is well along the way, since Rudy started it and Meredith presumably was well into resisting?

Now, the Nencini court is perched to say that the location of 36i (sample on the blade belonging to Amanda) is proof that Amanda used the knife in a murderous motion, rather than in a culinary motion..... is THAT believable much less logical?

You see, none of this even fits Micheli's standard, that evidence be damned, it just has to be a logical scenario.
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The irony is, that IF Raffaele and Amanda had been there that night, or stumbled upon the assault, they most certainly would have done everything in their power to save Meredith. Everything in their personalities and history both pre murder, and post murder indicates that they are both diligent responsible non violent people. The prosecution and media assigned fantasy characters and personalities to them which nobody has ever seen. Guerrilla marketing in its most sinister form.
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mixed DNA on the clasp versus in the bathroom

Mixed DNA has to be up there with most stupid evidence of all time. I wonder what he says about Meredith's DNA being mixed with the DNA of five other men on her bra-clasp?
NancyS,

That is an excellent point. How is it possible that mixed DNA can be very important in one instance and irrelevant in the other?
 
Rudy or Raffaele

I'm curious why you are confused Dan? The existence of the DNA on the bra clasp was not confirmed by Conti and Vechiotti as Stefanoni stored the bra clasp in a plastic bag and the clasp rusted. So in fact all the prosecution put forward was a claim that Stefanoni found Raffaele's DNA on the bra clasp.

Am I making sense now?
acbytesla,

You wrote Rudy before; was that in error?
 
Stefanoni tells Massei about 4 routes of bra-clasp contamination

I'm curious why you are confused Dan? The existence of the DNA on the bra clasp was not confirmed by Conti and Vechiotti as Stefanoni stored the bra clasp in a plastic bag and the clasp rusted. So in fact all the prosecution put forward was a claim that Stefanoni found Raffaele's DNA on the bra clasp.

Am I making sense now?

Judge Massei shows how Stefanoni "fudged" her way through the reporting of what was found on the clasp and hooks. It is either that, or Judge Massei himself did not accurately report what Stefanoni testified to.

Massei p. 205 said:
On trace B, from the clasp, a mixed genetic profile was found: the victim plus Sollecito and that result was further confirmed by the Y profile of Raffaele Sollecito, also found on the hooks.​

Then there's this little ditti from Massei where the collection method/timing is recounted. What Massei is summarizing here is that the piece of bra with the clasp and hooks on it, although observed on Nov 3, wasn't collected until Dec 18 because (and read this carefully), Stefanoni had said, "We already had collected the whole bra."

Massei p. 205 said:
The little piece of fabric with the clasp had been found at night, around 2 AM on November 3, according to what emerged from the video of that inspection. The clasp was immediately brought to her attention and photographed. It wasn’t however, catalogued during the course of that first search, because, although important, being a missing piece of the bra, there was the fact that ‚however we had taken the entire bra‛​

!?!?!?!?!?!

But to continue with Massei's summarizing Stefanoni on what exactly was found on the clasps.....

It's not enough that Stefanoni under oath can neither confirm nor deny that she, herself, had toughed the hooks with her obviously dirty glove, Stefanoni admits that another investigator had touched the hooks!!!!

Massei p. 213 said:
Returning to the examination of the piece of bra, she confirmed that the investigator who was shedding light on it had also touched the hooks which were on that piece of bra. She stressed that the investigator, immediately before having touched said hooks, changed his protective gloves ‚both he and I were going in, let’s say, in the room, for the sole purpose, at this stage, to look for the clasp. So we had just changed, and he was looking for where it could be, with the flashlight so he was looking, let’s say, more attentively‛.​

Remember, this is the sole piece of evidence tying Raffaele Sollecito to this crime. There is now an admission of a possible double contamination of the bra-hooks, duly recorded by Judge Massei, who then discounts that it has any relevance.

Speaking to the possibility that Stefanoni herself could have contaminated the hooks, she says that she'd just changed her gloves.... but then incredible uses those very same gloves to pick up Meredith's socks! Are we now to believe her in saying that these were fresh gloves in picking up the bra-hook, esp. when the video her staff took of the event shows that they were dirty?

And then there is a third act of potential contamination - Stefanoni replaces the bra-hooks to the floor!!!!! But Massei sluffs this off too.....

Massei p. 213 said:
With reference to the fact that at a certain point the clasp was placed on the floor to be photographed, without a precautionary examination of the cleanliness of the floor, Dr Stefanoni stated the irrelevance of that circumstance. Firstly, she pointed
out that the piece was merely placed [on the floor] and that, due to what previously explained, it wouldn’t have been possible that the act of simply placing it there, could result in something being transferred unless there had been some liquid on the floor.​

By now, does anyone need to be convinced that Stefanoni actually testifies to the sloppiness by which she collected the clasp? How would someone define sloppiness other than this? And Massei is there to give the obvious, admitted sloppiness judicial factuality and justification.

Massei justification concerns that the clasp was found in Meredith's room, so contamination could only have come from outside the room. What is missing is any discussion of Stefanoni's own admission of a possible triple contamination of either Meredith's floor, or the various investigators who Stefanoni admitted touching the hooks, she herself with obviously dirty gloves.

I'll stop here. The discussion in the Massei report concerns the identification of the hook DNA with Raffaele.

But wait.... Stefanoni testifies to a fourth possible method of contamination. Yes, a fourth one.

Massei p. 290 said:
On November 2nd, after the door had been broken down and after everybody had been made to leave the house, at around 13:30 pm, the personnel from the Questura of Perugia arrived: Dr. Chiacchiera, the inspector Monica Napoleoni and others. Dr.
Chiacchiera reported that he stood in front of Meredith's room without entering; Napoleoni drew near to Meredith's room together with the assistant Buratti. They remained at the door, and Napoleoni took a step inside the room when the doctor from 118, who had arrived, uncovered the body. Deputy Commissioner Napoleoni stated that everyone who entered wore gloves and shoe-covers except for the personnel from 118, who, even without the precaution of shoe-covers and gloves could not have contaminated the clasp, it is observed, since it was well-hidden and, one might say, protected by Meredith's body and by the pillow under which it was found.​

Stefanoni doth protest too much, and Judge Massei is covering up for her sloppiness.

One of the reasons why the Florence conviction on Jan 30 could happen, was because Cassazione said that contamination must be proven by the defence.

Yet, here in the Massei report, we have the judge simply taking Stefanoni's word for it, trusting Stefanoni's hypotheticals. In the face of judges who simply believe Scientific Police on their say-so, how do defence counsel "prove" contamination.

Stefanoni herself gives four possible routes of contamination to judge Massei. What more do they want?
 
The problem with contamination reminds me of HaLa and how it contaminates other samples. Probably does not take more than a few cells from HaLa to contaminate another cancer culture.

Did the defense try to make it clear to the Supreme Court just how we are basically bathed in floating DNA. As our detection methods get more powerful, how easy it is for stray samples to contaminate evidence.
 
Novelli versus Gino; a timeline of the interrogations

The problem with contamination reminds me of HaLa and how it contaminates other samples. Probably does not take more than a few cells from HaLa to contaminate another cancer culture.

Did the defense try to make it clear to the Supreme Court just how we are basically bathed in floating DNA. As our detection methods get more powerful, how easy it is for stray samples to contaminate evidence.
With respect to contamination and also with respect to low template DNA analysis, Dr. Novelli (in 2011) told the Hellmann court what the Court of Supreme Cassation wanted to hear. I blame both the witness and the court, but not in equal proportion. I thought that Sarah Gino has made some good points at various times. BTW, he BBC3's pseudo-documentary did a hatchet job on her. A good article is the one that appeared first in the New Zealand Herald. link

EDT
Here is a link to an essay on their interrogations.
 
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With respect to contamination and also with respect to low template DNA analysis, Dr. Novelli (in 2011) told the Hellmann court what the Court of Supreme Cassation wanted to hear. I blame both the witness and the court, but not in equal proportion. I thought that Sarah Gino has made some good points at various times. BTW, he BBC3's pseudo-documentary did a hatchet job on her. A good article is the one that appeared first in the New Zealand Herald. link

Even with those specialized techniques, I am pretty nervous that mistakes may be made.
 
your concerns are justified IMO

Even with those specialized techniques, I am pretty nervous that mistakes may be made.
Even with all of the safeguards in place, there are some who have voiced reservations about using low template DNA in forensic work, such as Bruce Budowle and Allan Jamieson. It seems to me that those reservations have to be multiplied twice in this case: once because Stefanoni's lab did not have the special precautions in her lab that a dedicated low-template facility would have, and once more because her cavalier attitude toward things such as changing one's gloves should not be tolerated even in a lab doing standard DNA profiling. MOO.
 
Even with all of the safeguards in place, there are some who have voiced reservations about using low template DNA in forensic work, such as Bruce Budowle and Allan Jamieson. It seems to me that those reservations have to be multiplied twice in this case: once because Stefanoni's lab did not have the special precautions in her lab that a dedicated low-template facility would have, and once more because her cavalier attitude toward things such as changing one's gloves should not be tolerated even in a lab doing standard DNA profiling. MOO.

How do you think the future of LCN in forensics may play out?
If I was in a jury, I might accept it as supporting evidence if the case was reasonably solid otherwise maybe to kick it over that reasonable doubt threshold but otherwise be pretty skeptical if all they have is LCN evidence.

Edit: being that several of the Norfolk Four lived pretty close to the crime scene, I would not be surprised if some evidence based on LCN could not have been found around the crime scene not even including testing procedures.
 
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By the way, I can't help noticing we seem to have started discussing in some detail how to make apple crumble and I was wondering whether we might in so doing have strayed into the realms of the ridiculous.


Well certainly we have strayed in the apple crisp/crumple black hole of ridiculousness.

We must do that or else consider the actual corrupt case that Italy has put on so far. Rather than create time lines of corrupt events that are more probable and likely then any evidence the prosecution ever presented against AK and RS...instead we remain sidetracked by crisps and TOD discussions as if they are the only pieces of this very tough puzzle.

When in fact we all actually understand quite clearly that this puzzle is not all that tough. In fact the crime part is straightforward and simple.

What is mysterious and scary and unexplainable is how so many supposedly able Italians... given very high positions of power inside their judicial system can get things so completely wrong. We saw it here with Yummi. No logic, no reason, no honesty...just words...mostly meaningless words strung together so as to appear to be addressing an issue but that which did no such thing ever! Not once.

How does one address this amount of idiocy? Its almost impossible to consider the number of judicial "eyes" that have looked at the "evidence" of this case and never come to a reasonable position. If they are guilty then fine...I am not pro innocent. But I am pro facts and evidence and proof and witnesses and motive.

This is simply an unfathomable discussion to have that points out all the illogical, corrupt, illegal acts of several but then is also covered over by so many. How is that possible? What kind of world do they live in? How can we contemplate that and not retreat into a discussion about apple crumble?

Shall we move over to the CT section? And yet.....

Anyone waiting for something hopeful from the soon to be released Nencini report will sadly be disappointed I fear. Nothing could be sillier and more illegal than the ISC motivation report and yet no one in Italy gave it even a sideways glance. And so there you have the whole of it.

The Italians intend to claim proof beyond reasonable doubt when in fact they couldn't realistically reach a preponderance level. But if you get enough pushing, pulling and pretending in the same direction ....well how can they all be wrong? Right.

It is sinful...deceitful. Much like naming a pope a saint when he clearly understood and still ignored close confidants who were shown to be the worst offenders and pedophiles...for me that would seem to cause miracles to be deducted from ones score...JPII ignored the pedophiles...how the hell can he be a saint? The Catholics (former one right here) are making themselves as silly looking as the Italians do with this case.

Pass the Apple Crisp... BTW I have a fantastic and simple recipe for something called Norwegian Apple Pie...easier and better than any crisp or crumble. Sigh.
 
Guede

Well certainly we have strayed in the apple crisp/crumple black hole of ridiculousness. :D

We must do that or else consider the actual corrupt case that Italy has put on so far. Rather than create time lines of corrupt events that are more probable and likely then any evidence the prosecution ever presented against AK and RS...instead we remain sidetracked by crisps and TOD discussions as if they are the only pieces of this very tough puzzle.

When in fact we all actually understand quite clearly that this puzzle is not all that tough. In fact the crime part is straightforward and simple.
<snip>


Hi RandyN,
But I've liked reading the apple crisp/crumple debate!

Seriously though,
I'm takin' a break right now from reading the English translation of Rudy Guede's 2nd interrogation with PM Mignini, the one from March 2008.

Anyways, up to page 52, here's just a few of Guede's statements:
He says he met Amanda Knox on the opening of Le Chic, back on Sept. 4, 2007, but Amanda didn't even move in with Filomena, Laura and Meredith until Sept. 20th, much less start working at Le Chic yet.

He mentions that the guy who let him sleep at the nursery school let him stay there overnight for 20 Euros, (not the 50 Euros that I'd read of before) and the guy let him inside by opening the place with his keys.

Guede mentions that he was using the lawyers stolen phone, but with his own SIM, # 329.1819627.

In this 2nd interrogation, Rudy Guede corrects a statement from his 1st interrogation, the 1 we still don't have access to, and states that on Halloween night, he did not meet Meredith at the party he 1st went to with the Spanish gals, but that he met her at The Domus nightclub around 2 am. He also states the he was there until closing, leaving around 5:00-5:30am.

Guede also mentions that, (supposedly on his 1st date with Meredith) he wore a Eco United t-shirt, a thin Adidas sweater with a gold logo and gold stripes on it, and also a yellow hooded sweater -(a hoodie?) with red and blue writing on it.

He states that Meredith anhe fooled around, not in her bedroom, but in the kitchen/lounge, of all places. And that they both removed their trousers, his words, and he fingered her there.

He had to use the restroom, and so Meredith told him to use Filomena's bathroom...

There's some gems in here, have a read if you want more on Rudy Guede's interrogations with PM Mignini.

2nd Interrogation - March 2008:
http://murderofmeredithkercher.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/RG-Transcript.pdf

3rd Interrogation - May, 2008
http://murderofmeredithkercher.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/RudyGuedeVerbale.pdf

The above links are from here:
http://murderofmeredithkercher.com/meredith-kercher-murder-case-transcripts/


Gosh I'd really, really like to read that 1st 7 hour interrogation from when Guede was returned to Italy from Germany back in Dec. 2007 and Mignin 1st got his hands on Rudy. And I'd like to read it in English, please!
RW

PS-Weird how PM Mignini seems soooo interested in Amanda Knox in this interrogation. Hardly any interest in Raffaele Sollecito.
My opinion only...
 
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What is mysterious and scary and unexplainable is how so many supposedly able Italians... given very high positions of power inside their judicial system can get things so completely wrong. We saw it here with Yummi. No logic, no reason, no honesty...just words...mostly meaningless words strung together so as to appear to be addressing an issue but that which did no such thing ever! Not once.

Since I'm a relative noob around here, I can't speak to the "not once" part of that. My first encounter with Mach came on the day he swanned in with the proclamation that Amanda Knox was just a "party girl" and that there was no reason to refer to her as an honor student. He went on to speculate that she and Guede had probably met when she first arrived and not weeks later at Le Chic.

No logic, no reason, and no honesty.

Just an anonymous person on a message board, perfectly happy to post vicious insinuation about someone he's clearly never met. It still amazes me, the whole PGP phenomenon -- a vivid, daily display of what's most depressing about human nature.
 
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