Bart Ehrman on the Historical Jesus

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I have answered your questions. I hope you will answer my very simple questions:

"I saw Peter, the other hunters and James, the shepherd’s son".
Who is the shepherd’s son?

"I saw Peter, the shepherd’s son, the other hunters and James."
Who is the shepherd’s son?

Thank you.



If the above were written in modern language, then you would hope that the writer meant (as you say), that James was the shepherd’s son in your first sentence.

But in the case of Paul’s’ letters we are not dealing with modern language, or a modern writer of careful and precise grammar, or careful and precise literal meaning in what he writes.

And … in your analogy, this “shepherd” is automatically assumed by you to be an ordinary human person who tends sheep and has human children. Whereas in Paul’s writing, the “Lord” who he is talking about is not an ordinary human but instead a supernatural scion of Yahweh in heaven. And his “children” or “brothers” etc. therefore can only be children or brothers in the figurative sense of religious faith … unless of course you first assume that this “Lord” is in fact a human person … but in that case you have just automatically assumed that this “Lord” who Paul speaks about, is in fact an ordinary human with family! IOW - you are unintentionally automatically assuming the outcome you want when constructing your argument!

So the question is - is Paul’s “Lord” of human origin, or not? Well Paul actually tells us he is not! In Galatians 1:11, Paul specifically stresses that the message that came to him is “not of human origin” … so how did Paul receive that message? He tells us very specifically - he got it as a direct "revelation from Jesus Christ", and it was specifically not of human origin”.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians 1:11-16
Galatians 1:11-12, NIV

11 I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.
 
David

What you call a "grammatical rule" has no application to the Galatians 1: 19 problem. If you feel that if James has an epithet, then Simon should have two epithets, one more than he already has by being called 'Rocky,' then that is your judgment. There is no such grammatical rule.

But neither Cephas nor other apostle was "brother of the Lord" in the sense of Galatians 1: 18-19, ...
On the contrary, at least one other apostle besides Jame is a Brother of the Lord, since the plural is used in 1 Corithians 9: 5. The grammatical relation there between Cephas and the BoL's is the same as between Cephas and the apostlate. Cephas is an apostle, according to Paul. There is thus no textual reason to exclude that he is also a BoL. Similarly, according to reputation, James, Peter and John all belong to the "pillar" class.

So, to recap, of three plural categories mentioned in the text: apostles, Brothers of the Lord, and pillars, James and Rocky share membership in two, but accoridng to you couldn't possibly both belong to the third. Fine, I disagree.

And of course, even if we knew for a fact that Rocky wasn't a member of the BoL class, there would still be nothing in the text that tells us what the noun phrase means. Paul sometimes uses figurative language for category names. Those pillars aren't made of stone, even if one is them is known as Rocky.

"I saw Peter, the other hunters and James, the shepherd’s son".
Who is the shepherd’s son?
One son of the shepherd is named James. (see example below)

"I saw Peter, the shepherd’s son, the other hunters and James."
Who is the shepherd’s son?
I don't know. The sentence doesn't say whether Peter is the shepherd's son, or whether instead the shepherd's son is a distinct person in your list.

OK, my turn.

Example: Joshua is a shepherd. He has two sons, Peter and James. Peter is a hunter, chief of a hunting crew comprising Andrew, Judas and Thomas. Joshua's other son, James, is a roofer. James has two children, Joshua and James. They are farmers.

Joshua, the shepherd, threw a party celebrating the successful hunting season. At the party, I saw Peter, the other hunters and James, the shepherd's son.

Please tell me what rule of grammar I have violated in the example.
 
I don’t know if you have seen the video I linked, where bible scholar John Huddlestun is interviewed by Richard Dawkins, but in that interview Huddlestun says it’s a well known fact that from early Greco-Roman times/culture, anyone who was important was almost always said to have a god as his father but to be born of a human mother. There’s a relevant quote and a link to the video below, and the most directly relevant statements appear from about 25min. 45sec. (the whole video is of course directly relevant in the overall context of the reliability of the OT, NT and Jesus) -


John Huddlestun interview
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21NoQuKTB8Q

“ The idea that your father was a god and your mother a human woman was extremely common in the Greco-Roman period. Anyone who was important at all, whether an Emperor, or Philosopher, or Athlete. If you were anyone important then you would of course have been born of a god and your mother would have been a woman. This was extremely common. The surprising thing would have been if a Gospel writer chose NOT to say that Jesus was born of God with a woman. “

If that is correct, then obviously we cannot use the statement in Galatians where Paul says of “God’s Son”, that he was “born of a woman”, to mean that Paul knew such a thing to be literally true. In that Greco-Roman tradition/belief, a statement like that just means that Paul, or more accurately his anonymous copyist author circa 200AD, simply follows the common tradition of the time and assumes that since this was actually “God’s Son” then he must automatically be born of a woman but with God himself as the father.

As Huddlestun (who does believe in a HJ) says - “the surprise would have been if any Gospel writer chose NOT to say that Jesus was born of God with a woman. “

It does not mean that Paul or any gospel writer had the faintest idea who Jesus was or who his mother was really supposed to be. And afaik, certainly Paul at least, does not try to name the “mother”.

It might be a different matter if Paul had named the mother and given some actual details of Jesus or his mother and brothers/family that could have been conceivably verified in any reliable way. But of course he did not. As almost all commentators have pointed out, whether pro or anti HJ, the conspicuous thing about Paul’s letters is that he really knows virtually nothing about any real living Jesus - practically everything that Paul says about his belief in Jesus is theological and not realistic … in fact, perhaps everything he says about his messiah belief is theological rather than ever factual or earthly.

That really only leaves us with the gospels. But as Huddlestun remarks in that video, g-Mathew is constantly using what bible scholars and historians call “Citation Fulfilment Formulae”. That is; the author of g-Mathew obtained his stories of Jesus by simply searching the words of the OT for any passage which he decided could be applied to his expectation of Jesus. As Huddlestun says (I paraphrase from memory, but check the video) “it did not matter that the actual passage in the OT was clearly not about Jesus but about some other figure or event, g-Mathew simply decided to reproduce or interpret that as if it was about Jesus. And he did that not just with actual prophecies, but with any other parts of the OT that he wished to use”.

In respect of which, afaik everyone agrees that g-Mathew is in fact just an expanded version of g-Mark. That is; g-Mark was also doing that exact same thing, i.e. looking in the OT for any passage that he wished to interpret as an act of Jesus. As I have said here several times; Randel Helms wrote a complete book showing how, why, and where the gospel writers took their Jesus stories from the OT (Randel Helms, Gospel Fictions).

If as all NT scholars seem to agree, Paul’s Letters pre-date the gospels and are the earliest known mention of Jesus, then it’s obvious that later gospel writers producing g-Mark and g-Mathew etc., may have got that idea of searching the OT for Jesus stories, from what had already been written as Paul’s letters. Where the letters repeatedly stress that Paul obtained all his knowledge of Jesus “from no man”, “not of human origin”, “I was not told it by anyone”, ”nor was I taught it by anyone”, but what he preached as his gospel of Jesus, which was “we preach Christ risen”, was known to Paul by “revelation from the Lord himself” and always “according to scripture” through that “which is written” etc.

If the gospel writers knew that Paul had said the belief in Jesus was according to scripture, and because “it is written”, then it is obvious that might have been the reason they scoured the OT for whatever passages they wanted to apply to what were clearly invented Jesus stories.

Finally on the issue of “God’s Son” being “born of a woman” - in Colossians 1:15 Paul says of the “Son” that he was "the firstborn of all creation" and he was “before all things“ etc ., see the quotes below. That is not really compatible with this same “Son“ being born of a normal living woman close to Paul’s own time.

Colossians 1:15
15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;
16 for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;
17 and he is before all things, and in him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it was the good pleasure [of the Father] that in him should all the fulness dwell;
20 and through him to reconcile all things unto himself, having made peace through the blood of his cross; through him, [I say], whether things upon the earth, or things in the heavens.

Well observed!

Christianity is very much a literary tradition where the material gets recycled and rewritten in various forms to satisfy the needs of a new environment. Thus we don't get one 'gospel' we get dozens, narratives that purport to show how 'prophecies' from previous texts were 'fulfilled' or will be in the future (new 'prophecies').

That Paul's 'woman' is not meant to be a literal historic woman may be indicated by his use of allegorical 'mothers' in Galatians 4:

21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says?
22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman.
23 His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise.

24 These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar.
25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children.
26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother.

If Paul were speaking of literal descent, obviously it would be a blatant lie to suggest the Jews were derived from Hagar (people of that era not necessarily knowing the story of Abraham was merely a mythical tale as we know today) because the literal mother of the Jews is Sarah.

And indeed in this allegory if Jesus were born a mortal man then he too would be a son of Hagar and not of Sarah. Then there would have to be more explanation of how Jesus changes mothers... or something.

Likewise as Paul's First Adam is an earthly being, his Second Adam is a heavenly being. There is no 'transition' explained.

Also notice that there is a whole city 'above' that corresponds to the earthly city, which indicates Paul is of a Platonic turn of mind.
 
Eight bits and David,

Forgive my ignorance, but the grammar in question, is this English grammar being applied and logic derived, or Greek?
 
Jayson

Howdy.

but the grammar in question, is this English grammar being applied and logic derived, or Greek?
Beats me. All the discussion of the matter between David and me so far has been in English. It's David's claim that there is a grammatical issue, so maybe he will help you. My view is that the Greek grammar is fine, and does not discriminate within a variety of possible factual relationships among Peter-Cephas, James, "the Lord," and various kinds of brotherhood, literal and figurative.

The literary devices in question are found in both languages, so I am unsure that proceeding in English has been a bad idea.
 
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@dejudge: You are jumping around two very different questions: history vs myth and humanity vs divinity, and treating both as exclusive (myth excludes history, divinity excludes humanity).

Your statement is a well known fallacy.

I am dealing specifically with the question of the non-historicity of the character called Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

Driwus said:
All I am talking about is whether Paul believed that Jesus was born a human being. That is an entirely separate question from whether Jesus was actually historical. You claim that Paul does not view Jesus as born a human being; he only views him as a spiritual divine being. What Paul actually writes is very much different.

Your statement is an established fallacy.

The Pauline Jesus was God Incarnate.

It was Marcion's Son of God that was said to be ONLY Divine or a Phantom.

Driwus said:
Your favorite example of Gaius. His claim to be a brother of Jupiter? That's a mythical claim. So myth, right? Gaius was mythical, not historical. And not human. Lets get to revising those history textbooks!

Your statement is a failure of logic.

Gaius was the Emperor of Rome and Jupiter was a Myth God.

James the Apostle is a fiction character in the NT of whom there is NO actual evidence and the Lord Jesus was a mythological Son of God.

Driwus said:
So what of Jesus? We have a number of options. Like Zeus, he could have been a purely mythical figure AND non-human. Or, like Adam, he could have been a mythical figure and human (within the myth). Or, like Gaius, he could have been historical and human (outside the myth) who became viewed in mythical terms.

Or, you don't know what you are talking about.

Driwus said:
My only point here is that Paul, whether or not there was a HJ, regarded Jesus was born a human being.

You have NO point or it is irrelevant. You don't know or do not have any actual evidence of an HJ pre 70 CE.

In Galatians, the Pauline writer SPECICALLY claimed his Jesus was NOT a man, that he did NOT get his Gospel from man and that he CONFERRED with entities WITHOUT Flesh and Blood when the Sof God was revealed to him.

The Pauline Jesus was the Son of God who was Raised from the dead..

My I remind you that the Pauline writings are compatible with the teachings of the Church.

Jesus was the SON of God made of a woman--the Last Adam--a quickening spirit.

Jesus in the NT is the ONLY begotten Son of God.
 
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Where in the NT?

Please, just read the NT.

John 3:16 KJV---For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish , but have everlasting life.

1 John 4:9 KJV---In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
 
Well the evidential case for Jesus is "over". In fact it was over long before any of these current threads began.

Because what has been exposed in recent years by numerous sceptical critics, is that what was once claimed to be unassailable evidence of a Jesus figure who was "certain", turns out to be nothing of the kind.

Yes, you have closed down the quest of historical Jesus at expense of the whole History of Philosophy and a big deal or Ancient History in general. I'd would like to know what are the "numerous sceptical critics” who are willing to pay this price.

If the above were written in modern language, then you would hope that the writer meant (as you say), that James was the shepherd’s son in your first sentence. .

Sorry, but you are wrong. The apposition was its origin in classical world, both Greek and Latin. The Iliad is plenty of appositions. Achilles, swift-footed; Hector, breaker of horses; Agamemnon, king of kings, etc.


And … in your analogy, this “shepherd” is automatically assumed by you to be an ordinary human person who tends sheep and has human children.

I don't see what interest you have in discussing an epistle that was written by nobody knows who and nobody knows when. Be consequent with your claims at least.

I have no interest for my part in getting myself tired in arguing with someone who can end just saying that everything we have discussed has no value because it is based on documents without historical value. If you want to discuss what is a historical document, that is another issue. I’ll be glad to discuss with you on this issue.
 
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What you call a "grammatical rule" has no application to the Galatians 1: 19 problem. If you feel that if James has an epithet, (…)

Do I feel a grammatical rule? Grammatical rules aren't felt; they are used and recognised by those that use correctly a language.

On the contrary, at least one other apostle besides Jame is a Brother of the Lord, since the plural is used in 1 Corithians 9: 5. The grammatical relation there between Cephas and the BoL's is the same as between Cephas and the apostlate. Cephas is an apostle, according to Paul. There is thus no textual reason to exclude that he is also a BoL. Similarly, according to reputation, James, Peter and John all belong to the "pillar" class.

So, to recap, of three plural categories mentioned in the text: apostles, Brothers of the Lord, and pillars, James and Rocky share membership in two, but accoridng to you couldn't possibly both belong to the third. Fine, I disagree.

1 Corithians 9: 5 establish a hierarquical relation: Peter, the apostles and the "brethren of the Lord" (i.e. disciples). General, captains and soldiers. From higher to lower. In Galatians 1:19, James can not be considered one of the "brethren of the Lord" because he is one of the three pillars of the Jerusalem church, according to Paul. He is matched to other “general”, Peter, and the “captains”, apostles. So, when Paul calls him "brother of the Lord" is meaning other thing, and only remains one: brother in blood.



Example: Joshua is a shepherd. He has two sons, Peter and James. Peter is a hunter, chief of a hunting crew comprising Andrew, Judas and Thomas. Joshua's other son, James, is a roofer. James has two children, Joshua and James. They are farmers.

Joshua, the shepherd, threw a party celebrating the successful hunting season. At the party, I saw Peter, the other hunters and James, the shepherd's son.

Please tell me what rule of grammar I have violated in the example.

If “son of shepherd” is read as an apposition it is an apposition just to Peter. It can not be an apposition of James. The rule is that in English the apposition is placed after the noun and between commas (brackets) -or dashes-. In Greek and Latin it has to be declined in the same case.
 
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Please, just read the NT.

John 3:16 KJV---For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish , but have everlasting life.

1 John 4:9 KJV---In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
I have just read it.
"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth" (John 1:14).
"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him" (John 1:18).
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16).
"He that believeth on Him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God" (John 3:18).
"God sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him" (I John 4:9).
Now tell me this. When the hoax forgers falsified the NT, how did it come about that only in the Johannine material did they hoax forge the only begotten son stuff. And only in the late Synoptics did the falsifiers forge virgin story hoaxes? Tell me why we get these strange patterns in the hoax forgeries.

I would ask IanS the same question about his
selected examples of late devotional copyist biblical writing about peoples earlier beliefs in the supernatural
and his
manifestly unreliable bible composed of selected pieces of Christian devotional writing known only from much later copyist writing that is known to be subject to alteration.
But if you ask him to consider such questions he goes absolutely bananas. So I'll leave him be. And I won't ask what "copyist writing" could be. Did the writers compose it? Then they're not copyists. Did they copy it? Then where did they get it from, and who were the original authors? I mean what sort of people: not the names, unless you've got their birth certificates, dejudge.
 
David

If “son of shepherd” is read as an apposition it is an apposition just to Peter. It can not be an apposition of James. The rule is that in English the apposition is placed after the noun and between commas (brackets) -or dashes-. In Greek and Latin it has to be declined in the same case.
I answered both your questions. I asked you one. My question to you was:

Please tell me what rule of grammar I have violated in the example.

Please answer the question.
 
Yes, you have closed down the quest of historical Jesus at expense of the whole History of Philosophy and a big deal or Ancient History in general. I'd would like to know what are the "numerous sceptical critics” who are willing to pay this price.



Sorry, but you are wrong. The apposition was its origin in classical world, both Greek and Latin. The Iliad is plenty of appositions. Achilles, swift-footed; Hector, breaker of horses; Agamemnon, king of kings, etc.




I don't see what interest you have in discussing an epistle that was written by nobody knows who and nobody knows when. Be consequent with your claims at least.

I have no interest for my part in getting myself tired in arguing with someone who can end just saying that everything we have discussed has no value because it is based on documents without historical value. If you want to discuss what is a historical document, that is another issue. I’ll be glad to discuss with you on this issue.



Well the above post contains little if any useful information at all on the actual subject.

We have discussed before, many dozens of times, why it is completely bogus to claim that rejecting an appalling standard of claimed "evidence" in the case of Jesus does not mean, or even imply in any way at all, that all of ancient history would collapse.

Nobody disputes that the biblical writing, both NT and OT, provides masses of clear “historical” evidence for peoples religious beliefs and ideas of that time. But what it does not contain is any reliable evidence that their supernatural messiah/god was ever a real figure.
 
But what it does not contain is any reliable evidence that their supernatural messiah/god was ever a real figure.
That's right. All you need to show now is that the proposed historical Jesus is claimed to be supernatural or a god, and you'll have made your case.
 
I would ask IanS the same question about his


selected examples of late devotional copyist biblical writing about peoples earlier beliefs in the supernatural .


and his

manifestly unreliable bible composed of selected pieces of Christian devotional writing known only from much later copyist writing that is known to be subject to alteration. .


But if you ask him to consider such questions he goes absolutely bananas. So I'll leave him be. And I won't ask what "copyist writing" could be. Did the writers compose it? Then they're not copyists. Did they copy it? Then where did they get it from, and who were the original authors? I mean what sort of people: not the names, unless you've got their birth certificates, dejudge.



What do you mean by saying I ever “went bananas”? I know what the expression means, but I don’t think you will find any posts of mine losing my temper with anyone. On the other hand, you have yourself often posted to express outrage at what people have said, saying you take personal offence at it and how revolting it is and how people are liars etc.

And also if you wanted know what “copyist writing” is then you could have asked me, instead of trying to slip that into the middle of a reply to someone else about an entirely different issue.

So to answer that - if we just say these documents, e.g. extant examples of Paul’s letters and the canonical Gospels”, are simply “copies”, then that word implies that they are accurate reproductions of some original. But in fact the situation with all that extant NT writing, is that we do not know if that copying is really accurate at all. On the contrary, afaik, even bible scholars agree that the copying was subject to various alterations. But worse than that - we do not have any original copies of any of it, so we cannot tell whether the extant material really bears any relation to what was originally said and written by any of the named authors (if indeed those named authors were ever even real people!).

That is - it may well be the case that Mathew, Mark, Luke, John etc. never really wrote anything at all, and that no later writers every really knew what sort of gospel anyone of those names ever preached. All we know is that some completely different anonymous people created the gospel under these names … they are not just copies; the whole thing was first written & created by someone other than Mark, Mathew, Luke, John!

And the same may easily apply to all of Paul’s letters. That is - Paul may never have written anything at all. What we have, even as the supposed genuine Pauline letters, may quite easily have been composed and written by someone else entirely. And that is actually likely because, wherever we can check, afaik it has always turned out that the named author was not actually the person who wrote the thing!
 
...
And the same may easily apply to all of Paul’s letters. That is - Paul may never have written anything at all. What we have, even as the supposed genuine Pauline letters, may quite easily have been composed and written by someone else entirely. And that is actually likely because, wherever we can check, afaik it has always turned out that the named author was not actually the person who wrote the thing!

The same also applies for Homer, Pythagoras, Herodotus, Aristotle and Plato...etc.

All we'd be left with is statues and buildings, coins and ruined temples.

It is all hand-written copies of copies of copies until the invention of the printing press.
 
IanS, compare this:

We have discussed before, many dozens of times, why it is completely bogus to claim that rejecting an appalling standard of claimed "evidence" in the case of Jesus does not mean, or even imply in any way at all, that all of ancient history would collapse.

with this:

But worse than that - we do not have any original copies of any of it, so we cannot tell whether the extant material really bears any relation to what was originally said and written by any of the named authors (if indeed those named authors were ever even real people!)
Isn't it the case that nearly all the ancient writings that we possess are "copies of copies"? But that this doesn't stop any evaluation of those copies from going ahead?

Using your "copies of copies" criteria, what early writings can we use to try to evaluate what has happened in history?
 
IanS, compare this:



with this:


Isn't it the case that nearly all the ancient writings that we possess are "copies of copies"? But that this doesn't stop any evaluation of those copies from going ahead?

Using your "copies of copies" criteria, what early writings can we use to try to evaluate what has happened in history?

Using the mystical psychic powers bequeathed to me by Sylvia Browne, I predict the response will be along the lines of: "But Jesus is special! Millions of people believe he was a god, so we have to hold him to a higher standard..."
 
...Isn't it the case that nearly all the ancient writings that we possess are "copies of copies"? But that this doesn't stop any evaluation of those copies from going ahead?
Not really.
GDon, you know how the argument about how historical integrity is endangered by questioning the HJ plays out.
Why go through it again?

In any case, using hagiography as evidence of historical events is weak, don't you agree?
 
David


I answered both your questions. I asked you one. My question to you was:

Please tell me what rule of grammar I have violated in the example.

Please answer the question.

The question was already answered:

The rule is that in English the apposition is placed after the noun and between commas (brackets) -or dashes-. In Greek and Latin it has to be declined in the same case.

In a non-restrictive appositive, the second element parenthetically modifies the first without changing its scope, and is not crucial to the meaning of the sentence. In a restrictive appositive, the second element limits or clarifies the foregoing one in some crucial way. For example, in the phrase "my friend Alice", "Alice" specifies to which friend the speaker is referring and is therefore restrictive. On the other hand, in the above example: "my wife, a nurse by training, ...", the parenthetical "a nurse by training" does not narrow down the subject, but rather provides additional information about the subject; namely, "my wife". In English, non-restrictive appositives are typically preceded or set off by commas, while restrictive appositives are not set off by commas. (Wikipedia, "Apposition": from: "Commas: Some Common Problems", Princeton Writing Program, Princeton University, 1999, princeton.edu/writing/center/resources/)​

Examples from Wikipedia "Apposition":

Barry Goldwater, the junior senator from Arizona, received the Republican nomination in 1964.
John and Bob, both friends of mine, are starting a band.
Alexander the Great, the Macedonian conqueror of Persia, was one of the most successful military commanders of the ancient world.
Dean Martin, a very popular singer, will be performing at the Sands Hotel.
 
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