Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Bill Williams]

Well, it's only a theory, but I think the defence teams were deeply compromised by their failure to win in the ISC. It is quite common in other jurisdictions for a new team to take on criminal appeals. There is good reason for that even in the absence of any fault in the conduct of an unsuccessful defence. The climb cannot be better demonstrated than in the manner Channel 5 used. It is ridiculous to prefer a verbal description or still photographs of the defence lawyer standing on the lower grill especially when the court has expressed interest in seeing the film. Those photographs are deeply unconvincing to me. This point ought to have been totally nailed because it's nearly the whole reason the enquiry went off the rails in the first few minutes.

They might also have made the point (perhaps they did) that Micheli held the climb to be perfectly feasible for one such as Guede.

..... to add to this, the climb per se was perfectly feasible to Judge Massei. This was another item that Massei departed from the prosecution in 2009; it's not the impossibility of the climb that deterred Massei like it was claimed by Mingini - Massei doubted that Rudy would have gone up to Filomena's window 3-times, because in Massei's "though experiment" about the whole manoeuvre, to unlatch the window-blinds, etc., that would have required three ascents.

If Massei had commissioned a video, or if the defence had received permission from the court to commission one, like what Channel 5 showed, there were no "3 ascents". Filomena's window was perfectly accessible from the outside with one ascent by a reasonably in-shaped individual like Guede. Even if Guede had to unlatch the window bblinds and THE go get a rock, this is not climbing Mt. Everest. The ease of the climb is the compelling issue here.

Guede could have accomplished all the manoeuvres in Massei's thought experiment in a few seconds, in 1, two or seven climbs.

And as we argue at length with Machiavelli about - where's Machiavelli!? - the path up to Filomena's window is actually sheltered from the road, whereas the deck on the other side is fully exposed to the road, and lit by a street lamp. Once on the balcony a burglar has no avenue of retreat if seen, but at Filomena's window, all one has to do is jump down into the darkened space below the retaining wall and one is again invisible - a great avenue of retreat.

Like I was told when I first ventured into this whole case, by the time you and I argue about it, a reasonably competent burglar, like Rudy, is up and in - and already down the hall to Laura's bathroom taking a crap and grooving on some tunes.

Whereas I do not share the same criticisms of the defence teams as you wiser-folk, it is a complete head-scratcher why the defence let this one slide. After all the defence motions denied by the Nencini court, this was one the guy seemed interested in. His interest and the availability of the Channel 6 video seems to the layman here, me, to be a no-brainer.

 

[anglolawyer]

Answer this simple question: Was Meredith laying on the pillow in the position depicted when the perported semen stain was tracked to the other location by a shoe?

I neither know nor care. There is a thread at IIP called 'What really happened to Meredith Kercher' and I posted there a lot at one time. That seems a better place for this discussion if you can find anyone interested enough. Now, I regard these questions as irrelevant to my areas of interest (which are, since you ask:

1. the early stages of the investigation
2. Nencini
3. The next ISC appeal
4. Extradition and the ECHR

)

I don't see anything in your posts that remotely justifies your bizarre view of an accidental undressing or an accidental vaginal penetration. How long have you been nurturing these thoughts? I don't recall you ever mentioning this stuff before.

Like others, I have benefited tremendously from your posts on many facets of the case. I feel this is not likely to be one of them.

 

[anglolawyer]

..... to add to this, the climb per se was perfectly feasible to Judge Massei. This was another item that Massei departed from the prosecution in 2009; it's not the impossibility of the climb that deterred Massei like it was claimed by Mingini - Massei doubted that Rudy would have gone up to Filomena's window 3-times, because in Massei's "though experiment" about the whole manoeuvre, to unlatch the window-blinds, etc., that would have required three ascents.

If Massei had commissioned a video, or if the defence had received permission from the court to commission one, like what Channel 5 showed, there were no "3 ascents". Filomena's window was perfectly accessible from the outside with one ascent by a reasonably in-shaped individual like Guede. Even if Guede had to unlatch the window bblinds and THE go get a rock, this is not climbing Mt. Everest. The ease of the climb is the compelling issue here.

Guede could have accomplished all the manoeuvres in Massei's thought experiment in a few seconds, in 1, two or seven climbs.

And as we argue at length with Machiavelli about - where's Machiavelli!? - the path up to Filomena's window is actually sheltered from the road, whereas the deck on the other side is fully exposed to the road, and lit by a street lamp. Once on the balcony a burglar has no avenue of retreat if seen, but at Filomena's window, all one has to do is jump down into the darkened space below the retaining wall and one is again invisible - a great avenue of retreat.

Like I was told when I first ventured into this whole case, by the time you and I argue about it, a reasonably competent burglar, like Rudy, is up and in - and already down the hall to Laura's bathroom taking a crap and grooving on some tunes.

You have said this many times and the TV people proved you were right.

.Whereas I do not share the same criticisms of the defence teams as you wiser-folk, it is a complete head-scratcher why the defence let this one slide. After all the defence motions denied by the Nencini court, this was one the guy seemed interested in. His interest and the availability of the Channel 6 video seems to the layman here, me, to be a no-brainer.

There's a channel 6 video too? Wow. What's in it. Joking aside, what explanation can there be for not using that footage to show the judges how easy the climb was. We have had those parkour guys leaping about and a picture of a young lawyer standing on the lower grill. This was a film of the actual window of the actual apartment but the defence teams chose not to show it. I just hope Nencini makes a complete twat of himself and pronounces the climb impossible!

IIRC Massei also ruled out the rock-put because nobody could possibly get the rock through the 11" gap in the shutters. That one drives Randy nuts which is the only reason it doesn't do the same to me. As if the shutters were superglued into the 11" gap position overnight and not subject to the effects of the wind. That has to be one of the most bat **** crazy theories of the whole case (and in a contest in which competition is extremely fierce).

Whatever.

 

[Grinder]

Also I'm reflexively suspicious of this "most likely" business - if they did not finish watching the movie, why didn't they all say so? Why are you left to try to construe a "most likely" from someone's testimony? If you can point me to your exact source I will take a look but it sounds like you're trying very hard to misconstrue the facts.

They did start making the pizza before the movie but the way I wrote was wrong as they seem to have started to eat before the movie but after looking at pictures.

It cannot be right that Meredith ate no pizza and half a litre of apple crumble, because the chyme in her stomach was consistent with semi-digested pizza. There were the remains of cheese and vegetables. Plus nobody eats half a litre of apple crumble. This idea of yours is just plain dumb and just plain wrong. You are ignoring simple facts because you don't like them.

Well I didn't say she didn't eat any pizza. I said it is not known how much of what and when she ate. This is important because some people seem to imply that because 500 ml was found that proves it was the whole meal.

we prepared the pizza, we have eaten, then
We looked at the pictures of Halloween to your computer and then
We started to watch the movie but we were talking,
R.G. 08/08-2/13/2009 c/KNOX AMANDA MARIE + 1
13
so every now and then stopped the film then we
share; then, in mid-films, we have prepared a
apple crumble, which is a kind of Apple Pie, then
After we ate the apple crumble with ice cream, then
We did chat and then to the nine,
have gone because it was supposed to be just a meeting place for the
the afternoon.​

Note that she didn't say that the movie ended and we left. The wording and explaining why they left so early left me with the impression they didn't finish the movie. A problem is that it clearly wasn't of crucial interest to the defense lawyers what time she ate and what. They spent a lot of time asking about her attire and relationship to Amanda.

Currently, I do not. It seems like you want very badly to discredit the digestive system evidence, because you don't like the conclusion, but you don't have a very good grasp of what the digestive system evidence actually is. As such you are getting the cart before the horse.

I like the digestive evidence I just don't think it is strong enough to put the murder before 9:30. That is the only point I've been making.

When people make arguments that if she ate later it would make the 9:00-9:30 time more likely one sees the confirmation bias. While at eight o'clock starting time would put 9-9:30 in heart of GE time it also makes 9:30-10 much more likely than a 6-6:30 dining time. Candace says she didn't eat with the other girls because she didn't feel well. Because I don't believe CD or any true crime novel "facts" when no other source is available, I remain skeptical about this and am trying to find more sources about the evening.

As others have already said you are also attacking a straw man by saying that the digestive system evidence proves Knox and Sollecito are innocent. It alone does not. That plus the Naruto timestamp proves that Knox and Sollecito's involvement is staggeringly improbable and that no remotely sensible theory of the crime consistent with the known facts has ever been put forward, which ought to be enough for acquittal in any sane court system. That plus the additional computer forensics evidence does prove that they are innocent barring some truly baroque conspiracy scenario.

Since I've said since forever that the ILE didn't prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt and said during this back and forth I don't understand your point.

There is no doubt that if the Naruto time-stamp is accepted (I've not seen the explanation by the experts that found it), it narrows the time window to 9:35 to 9:55.

Now I don't accept Rudi's scream time but for those that do, then what about the Italian guy that just sweeps in and murders Meredith? .

 

[Kestrel]

.
Interesting. That had not occurred to me. The defense (and the prosecution) do seem to have a preference for thought experiments, rather than actual testing and verification. I think there are still things that need testing and verification.
.

Even in the US, courts have a preference for thought experiments and the opinions of "certified experts" over actual experiments. Perhaps because the legal rules were developed before widespread acceptance of the scientific method.

 

[Bill Williams]

You have said this many times and the TV people proved you were right.

'Twasn't me. It was the guy I met at the courthouse many years ago who told me this when I reconnected. He now thinks I'm a nut. No comments, please. But to people "in the business", rather than fat old-guys like me and Mignini, that climb is easy and a, "What's the problem, bro'?"

There's a channel 6 video too? Wow. What's in it. Joking aside, what explanation can there be for not using that footage to show the judges how easy the climb was. We have had those parkour guys leaping about and a picture of a young lawyer standing on the lower grill. This was a film of the actual window of the actual apartment but the defence teams chose not to show it. I just hope Nencini makes a complete twat of himself and pronounces the climb impossible!

IIRC Massei also ruled out the rock-put because nobody could possibly get the rock through the 11" gap in the shutters. That one drives Randy nuts which is the only reason it doesn't do the same to me. As if the shutters were superglued into the 11" gap position overnight and not subject to the effects of the wind. That has to be one of the most bat **** crazy theories of the whole case (and in a contest in which competition is extremely fierce).

Whatever.

My fingers are fat, too... the '6' is right beside the '5' and my finger width covers both keys.

You're a lawyer. Sue me.

But back to the important stuff. This is why some believe the very integrity of the Italian system is on the line here. In fairness, the very integrity of the Canaidan system as always been on the line - the difference is that we have Royal Inquiries, where an independent judge can rule on what the hell went wrong.

Usually it is the same old, same old. Investigative myopia, and settling in on theories before the evidence is it, and then letting the theory sort through the evidence for you. Sooner or later you're arguing that white is black, that black is white, and that an easy climb is a hard one.... just to protect the pyopic theory.

It's not just a Perugian problem.

 

[Dan O.]

I neither know nor care.

If you don't know and don't care to learn, why do you butt in?

There is a thread at IIP called 'What really happened to Meredith Kercher' and I posted there a lot at one time. That seems a better place for this discussion if you can find anyone interested enough.

I was posting here on JREF back when Meredith was still alive. This series of threads predates the IIP site. This is still a valid place to discuss such topics though the quality of critique has gone down significantly.

I don't see anything in your posts that remotely justifies your bizarre view of an accidental undressing or an accidental vaginal penetration. How long have you been nurturing these thoughts? I don't recall you ever mentioning this stuff before.

And you still aren't paying attention. The theory of the accidental undressing was based on the evidence that was available at the time. What Bruce claims about the t-shirts contradicts the statements in Massie that they we're rolled and thus changes the picture. I have not made that particular claim since Randy asked if the jacket and pants were unzipped yet some posters continue to attack it as if they earn an extra debating point each time.

Like others, I have benefited tremendously from your posts on many facets of the case. I feel this is not likely to be one of them.

I am able to find new angles to this case partly because I don't stick doggedly to preconceived notions. You need only show contradictory evidence to change my position. There is no need to attack me personally.

My position is still that Rudy's thumb could have found itself inside Meredith's vagina because of the way he tried to lift her that resulted in the disassociation of the bra. The rejection of this theory seems more to be a factor of not portraying Rudy as an evil sex craze maniac and less to do with the actual evidence. This theory does not preclude Rudy sexually raping Meredith. It simply shows some doubt as to the origin of the DNA evidence.

The semen stain is still an enigma. This falls into the early investigation so should be right up your alley. This stain and it's tracking to the center of the pillow are inconsistent with the position of Meredith's body depicted on that pillow. I question if the stain was even there on November 2/3. That certainly would explain why it wasn't tested. And when Naruto comes up even before the Massei trial, it would be disastrous for the prosecution if that stain were to match Raffaele. What ever happened to that pillowcase and the stain in it?

 

[anglolawyer]

If you don't know and don't care to learn, why do you butt in?

I did not butt in on the point you quizzed me about but on the suggestion that you now (quite rightly) avoid repeating that the undressing and penetration happened by accident.

I was posting here on JREF back when Meredith was still alive. This series of threads predates the IIP site. This is still a valid place to discuss such topics though the quality of critique has gone down significantly.

No doubt, no doubt. I am sure I have played my full part in the decline.

And you still aren't paying attention. The theory of the accidental undressing was based on the evidence that was available at the time. What Bruce claims about the t-shirts contradicts the statements in Massie that they we're rolled and thus changes the picture. I have not made that particular claim since Randy asked if the jacket and pants were unzipped yet some posters continue to attack it as if they earn an extra debating point each time.

To be clear, have you abandoned the accidental undressing and accidental penetration based on being told her T-shirt was not rolled up?

I am able to find new angles to this case partly because I don't stick doggedly to preconceived notions. You need only show contradictory evidence to change my position. There is no need to attack me personally.

Show me where I have attacked you personally and I will stop doing it. I too like to find new angles here. It's hard going especially when just about everything has been gone over by some smart people, including you.

My position is still that Rudy's thumb could have found itself inside Meredith's vagina because of the way he tried to lift her that resulted in the disassociation of the bra. The rejection of this theory seems more to be a factor of not portraying Rudy as an evil sex craze maniac and less to do with the actual evidence. This theory does not preclude Rudy sexually raping Meredith. It simply shows some doubt as to the origin of the DNA evidence.

Is it? Oh dear.

The semen stain is still an enigma. This falls into the early investigation so should be right up your alley. This stain and it's tracking to the center of the pillow are inconsistent with the position of Meredith's body depicted on that pillow. I question if the stain was even there on November 2/3. That certainly would explain why it wasn't tested. And when Naruto comes up even before the Massei trial, it would be disastrous for the prosecution if that stain were to match Raffaele. What ever happened to that pillowcase and the stain in it?

Yes, it's all part of the bigger picture in which we would still like to know how the cops' thinking evolved, from what point in time and what steps they later took to suppress their gross folly. I am right with you there. IMO a series of serious crimes were probably committed by these people to protect themselves from exposure. I value any effort to expose them here and believe that, up to a point, this is an achievable objective.

 

[acbytesla]

If you don't know and don't care to learn, why do you butt in?

I was posting here on JREF back when Meredith was still alive. This series of threads predates the IIP site. This is still a valid place to discuss such topics though the quality of critique has gone down significantly.

And you still aren't paying attention. The theory of the accidental undressing was based on the evidence that was available at the time. What Bruce claims about the t-shirts contradicts the statements in Massie that they we're rolled and thus changes the picture. I have not made that particular claim since Randy asked if the jacket and pants were unzipped yet some posters continue to attack it as if they earn an extra debating point each time.

I am able to find new angles to this case partly because I don't stick doggedly to preconceived notions. You need only show contradictory evidence to change my position. There is no need to attack me personally.

My position is still that Rudy's thumb could have found itself inside Meredith's vagina because of the way he tried to lift her that resulted in the disassociation of the bra. The rejection of this theory seems more to be a factor of not portraying Rudy as an evil sex craze maniac and less to do with the actual evidence. This theory does not preclude Rudy sexually raping Meredith. It simply shows some doubt as to the origin of the DNA evidence.

The semen stain is still an enigma. This falls into the early investigation so should be right up your alley. This stain and it's tracking to the center of the pillow are inconsistent with the position of Meredith's body depicted on that pillow. I question if the stain was even there on November 2/3. That certainly would explain why it wasn't tested. And when Naruto comes up even before the Massei trial, it would be disastrous for the prosecution if that stain were to match Raffaele. What ever happened to that pillowcase and the stain in it?

With all due respect Dan, this is an open public forum. If you want to argue with just one person, I think you should just PM that person and keep it off line. However, if you post it to the forum, I think it is fine for anyone to jump in and comment.

Never the less, I think you your imagination has gotten carried away. Meredith's clothes being removed in the way that they were was not some accident. She didn't pull down her pants so Rudy could use her vagina as some sort of handle. Don't buy it.

 

[Bruce Fischer]

The semen stain is still an enigma. This falls into the early investigation so should be right up your alley. This stain and it's tracking to the center of the pillow are inconsistent with the position of Meredith's body depicted on that pillow. I question if the stain was even there on November 2/3. That certainly would explain why it wasn't tested. And when Naruto comes up even before the Massei trial, it would be disastrous for the prosecution if that stain were to match Raffaele. What ever happened to that pillowcase and the stain in it?

How do you explain the fact that Guede stepped in it? The stain is dated by Guede's shoe print.

You are putting far too much emphasis on the position of Meredith's body.

I posted an image showing how much of the pillow was exposed. Guede could have easily moved Meredith around as he was covering her. The duvet was tucked under her body on her right side. He could have masturbated and ejaculated on the pillow (or prematurely ejaculated on the pillow) in front of Meredith, he could have then stood up and stepped in it, he then could have went to Meredith's left side and stepped on the pillow while reaching over to grab the duvet to cover her. There is nothing to say that Meredith could not have been moved in the process.

We will never know exactly what Guede did. You are trying to prove precise movements in a room that you were not in. Its impossible to do and its not necessary.

There are irrefutable facts that prove a sexual assault took place. Meredith's clothing was removed and Guede's DNA was found inside her body as the result of digital rape. The possible semen stain would simply stack on top of the evidence we already have. I think we all agree that the stain should have been tested long ago.

This is off-topic for this post but I think you are also making the mistake of believing that Meredith was able to fight up until her last breath. You had theorized that it would have been too difficult for Guede to hold the knife while overpowering Meredith and undressing her at the same time.

Meredith lost a tremendous amount of blood. The attack was horrific, leaving her defenseless in her dying moments. The blood on the bra strap indicates that major blood loss occurred before the bra was ripped off. Guede did not have to fight Meredith in order to undress her.

I think that far too much effort has been put forth in an attempt to complicate an uncomplicated murder. Most of this has come from those that have added two innocent people to the mix. But I think the conversation has gone on for so long, that some are grasping for ways to keep a debate going when there should be nothing more to debate.

You have researched this case extensively over the years, it appears to me that you are now trying to take the analysis to a level that is impossible to achieve. We were not there. Guede is the only one that knows what happened. Well, if he has a mental disorder that you suggest, then maybe you would disagree that he even knows at this point what he did. All we can do is go by the hard facts that we have, and those facts tell us that Rudy Guede murdered and sexually assaulted Meredith Kercher. Amanda and Raffaele had absolutely nothing to do with the crime.

 

[Grinder]

.
Interesting. That had not occurred to me. The defense (and the prosecution) do seem to have a preference for thought experiments, rather than actual testing and verification. I think there are still things that need testing and verification.
.

Even in the US, courts have a preference for thought experiments and the opinions of "certified experts" over actual experiments. Perhaps because the legal rules were developed before widespread acceptance of the scientific method.

This is an interesting avenue. Perhaps Anglo will weigh in.

We do live in a time when experts seem to be over valued. The footprint on the bathmat seems to be an excellent example. Tesla notwithstanding I think it is perfectly clear that if we must choose between Rudi and Raf, which is a false premise, it clearly is Rudi's if the blob of the big toe is viewed as drop or smudge. If that blob is the middle of Raf's toe then the toe is ginormous.

As for the window, I have admitted and will admit again that I thought it was a harder climb than it is.

One of the many people that had it far better than I was Dan O. Given the importance the Massei court and the others gave to the staged break in theory it is mind-boggling that they only took a picture of a lawyer standing on the second to highest rung.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Rudy's mental state

I am not able to state with anything near certainty whether or not Rudy had or has a mental illness. I don't have the qualifications, and I have not performed any sort of examination. On the other hand, I am more confident that he will continue to lie his whole life. He has been well rewarded for the lies he has told so far.

 

[RWVBWL]

.
I wonder if the reason for some of Meredith's clothes being off is that when she came home she was intending to change into pajamas, or sweat pants, or maybe take a shower. She might have gone to her bedroom, kicked off her shoes, removed her socks, slid her jeans and panties off. Perhaps her way of taking panties off was to roll them down with the palms of her hands.

Maybe after that she went to the kitchen to get something and caught Rudy sneaking out of the bathroom. Or maybe Rudy peeked and caught a glimpse of her half naked in the bedroom.

Some questions that come to mind looking at that picture are:

• - What caused that distinct dark red streak on the pillow?
• - How did the body end up partly on top of the duvet? I don't think it is easy to drag a limp body onto a duvet on a slippery floor unless one is standing on the duvet to keep it from moving.
• - Why were the bloody sheet, and bloody towel underneath the duvet (over by the bed)?
• - Why are Meredith's right arm and right leg off to the side? Were they they used to drag Meredith over by the bed and onto the duvet?
• - Why are the footprints on the pillow under her body? Did he push the pillow under her with his feet while lifting her on her left side?
• - Why is there significant blood on the pillow under her right leg? Did it come from her leg? If not where?
• - And one other, in the picture that was shown, where is the bra clasp relative to the pillow and the inspector's feet?

.

Greetings CodyJuneau,
I read your post late last night before I hit the sack but I recalled it this morning as I was searching for a photograph online. For I too had recently wondered if Meredith was maybe gonna take a nice hot shower on that chilly November night before she started to study with that borrowed history book of Robyn's.

These 2 photo's below, from 1 of the Italian magazines, show why I don't believe that Meredith started to undress her clothing herself.

92 photo's are in the Italian article link, most you've probably seen:
http://www.corriere.it/foto-gallery...-50b6ec24-882f-11e3-bbc9-00f424b3d399.shtml#1





Why?
Because the placement of her bra, as seen better in the 2nd photo, makes it seem more likely to me that the same person who removed it and placed it there, also placed her pants and panties where they too were found...

Maybe she did take her shoes and socks off herself near her closet though
when Rudy Guede, by surprise, entered her bedroom and then...

Thoughts?
RW

PS-Is that the history book on the floor by her sweatshirt jacket and closet?
Is that her handbag that she was carrying that night, lying on the blue floormat cover by her shoes and socks?
Or did she have the brown purse with her at Robyn's, that was found on her bed after the duvet was removed?

 

[RWVBWL]

I posted an image showing how much of the pillow was exposed. Guede could have easily moved Meredith around as he was covering her. The duvet was tucked under her body on her right side. He could have masturbated and ejaculated on the pillow (or prematurely ejaculated on the pillow) in front of Meredith, he could have then stood up and stepped in it, he then could have went to Meredith's left side and stepped on the pillow while reaching over to grab the duvet to cover her. There is nothing to say that Meredith could not have been moved in the process.
<snip>
Meredith lost a tremendous amount of blood. The attack was horrific, leaving her defenseless in her dying moments. The blood on the bra strap indicates that major blood loss occurred before the bra was ripped off. Guede did not have to fight Meredith in order to undress her.
<snip>

Meredith was found with a gnarly wound on the left side of her throat.
As she was lying on her back when found dead, I would expect that the majority of blood would be found on the left side.

But how come the very bloody towel was found on her right side?

Surely Rudy didn't pick that up and move it too, right?
If he did, his hands must have gotten very bloody...

My gut feeling is that this towel was placed there as Meredith was lying on her left side,
with her throat wound facing downwards, when at some point afterwards, Rudy raped her.
Thoughts?
RW

 

[acbytesla]

I really hate these pictures. It saddens me deeply.

While I respect Dan immensely, I do believe he is way off track on this. We all do go off on tangents sometimes and I respect his mind for exploring it. But never the less, I tend to agree with Bruce on this. It is wild speculation that tries to imagine every move and I don't think you can do that with this evidence. There is a 99.5 percent chance that Meredith was sexually assaulted or raped as is the term today for any penetration and probably much less than the remaining .5 percent chance that it happened in the way that Dan is imagining.

 

[Bruce Fischer]

Meredith was found with a gnarly wound on the left side of her throat.
As she was lying on her back when found dead, I would expect that the majority of blood would be found on the left side.

But how come the very bloody towel was found on her right side?
[qimg]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/834/ya9i.jpg[/qimg]
Surely Rudy didn't pick that up and move it too, right?
If he did, his hands must have gotten very bloody...

My gut feeling is that this towel was placed there as Meredith was lying on her left side,
with her throat wound facing downwards, when at some point afterwards, Rudy raped her.
Thoughts?
RW

The blood on Meredith's right shoulder along with the blood on the bra suggest that she was on her right side for a period of time allowing the blood to soak her shirt on her right shoulder. The gaping wound was on the front of the left side of her neck so the blood would have flowed to her right if she was on her right side.This was not a long period of time and the blood left her body rapidly. Lividity had not set in on her side, as it would have if the scene was staged. Meredith was moved around during the attack, not at a later time. Lividity was present on her back where it would be expected as she was found laying on her back.

I don't see any significance to where the towels were located.

 

[RWVBWL]

Zombie...

I'm simply trying to account for the fact that the underpants were rolled which indicates they were pulled down when the pants were pulled off. If he were trying to undress her the tshirts would not have gotten rolled up. And if he had removed the jacket and then rolled up the tshirts he would not have them reverted to brute strength to remove the bra but rather unclipped it and taken it off intact. All of resulting evidence is accounted for by the simple motions of a zombie trying to move her body. It may not be probable for the underpants to come all the way off in that scenario. I would expect them to end up on her left leg after the third lift that tore off the bra. Perhaps at that point it simply looked out of place and rather than try to put them back on the zombie Guede pulled them the rest of the way off.

Hi Dan O.,
When I look at the bedroom photo's, I wonder how Rudy Guede, if in a zombie state of mind, did not make and track many more bloody shoeprints around while inside Meredith's bedroom nor when going to the bathroom to fetch towels, or also when he went back to clean himself up...

 

[Supercalifragilistic]

Enough

... Meredith's clothes being removed in the way that they were was not some accident. She didn't pull down her pants so Rudy could use her vagina as some sort of handle. Don't buy it.

Where on earth did you learn to think and write in this crude fashion? God help us.

 

[Dan O.]

How do you explain the fact that Guede stepped in it? The stain is dated by Guede's shoe print.

Is this a fact now? The transplanted stain certainly shows the characteristic rings of Rudy's shoe. But can you definitely attribute it to only Rudy's shoe to the exclusion of all others? What about Meredith's new boyfriend from the lower flat? Has it been assertained that he did not have similar shoes? We know that the prosecution had a pair of similar shoes that they acquired on the 6th but they had a different number of rings. Where is the graphic that shows the alignment of the rings in the second stain with Rudy's shoe?

You are putting far too much emphasis on the position of Meredith's body.

I didn't produce that graphic showing the proximity of the stain to Meredith's body.

I posted an image showing how much of the pillow was exposed. Guede could have easily moved Meredith around as he was covering her. The duvet was tucked under her body on her right side. He could have masturbated and ejaculated on the pillow (or prematurely ejaculated on the pillow) in front of Meredith, he could have then stood up and stepped in it, he then could have went to Meredith's left side and stepped on the pillow while reaching over to grab the duvet to cover her. There is nothing to say that Meredith could not have been moved in the process.

Now you are essentially making my argument. There is nothing to say that Meredith was there when the semen was deposited.

Is there a photo from November 2/3 that shows the stain on the pillow case or one from December 18 that shows it on the pillow? Do the pillow case and pillow still exist? Would it be possible for this stain to be tested?

We will never know exactly what Guede did. You are trying to prove precise movements in a room that you were not in. Its impossible to do and its not necessary.

I am not Claiming to know preciesly what happened. On this issue all I am saying is that one specific sequence of events dis not happen and pointing out that Thre is a wide variety of possible events that would account for the evidence we have.

There are irrefutable facts that prove a sexual assault took place. Meredith's clothing was removed and Guede's DNA was found inside her body as the result of digital rape. The possible semen stain would simply stack on top of the evidence we already have. I think we all agree that the stain should have been tested long ago.

On this we agree.

This is off-topic for this post but I think you are also making the mistake of believing that Meredith was able to fight up until her last breath. You had theorized that it would have been too difficult for Guede to hold the knife while overpowering Meredith and undressing her at the same time.

That went back to the rolled t-shirt. You can't roll the tshirt with her on the floor so an alternative is to roll it up before she is on the floor and therefore before she is incapacitated. That side issue that I was heading off is voided if the t-shirt is not rolled.

Meredith lost a tremendous amount of blood. The attack was horrific, leaving her defenseless in her dying moments. The blood on the bra strap indicates that major blood loss occurred before the bra was ripped off. Guede did not have to fight Meredith in order to undress her.

Not only did he not have to fight her, the evidence shows that he even left the room to wash the blood from his hands leaving her alone and still helpless.

I think that far too much effort has been put forth in an attempt to complicate an uncomplicated murder. Most of this has come from those that have added two innocent people to the mix. But I think the conversation has gone on for so long, that some are grasping for ways to keep a debate going when there should be nothing more to debate.

If you follow this thread back you will find that I don't often lead with theories. I mostly respond to questions or when claims are made that I don't feel are supported by the facts. If the debate is honest, somebody is bound to learn something in the process.

You have researched this case extensively over the years, it appears to me that you are now trying to take the analysis to a level that is impossible to achieve. We were not there. Guede is the only one that knows what happened. Well, if he has a mental disorder that you suggest, then maybe you would disagree that he even knows at this point what he did. All we can do is go by the hard facts that we have, and those facts tell us that Rudy Guede murdered and sexually assaulted Meredith Kercher.

We don't have to be there to know that if a tree falls in the forest it will create pressure waves in the air that we call sound. The evidence left behind can guide us to understanding what could have happened. But we can also take a wholistic view to eliminate chains of events that cannot happen. The ultimate goal is to eliminate all possible chains of events except one and that one we call the truth.

Amanda and Raffaele had absolutely nothing to do with the crime.

You keep repeating that as if there is some debate. Those chains had been eliminated long ago.

 

[Dan O.]

Hi Dan O.,
When I look at the bedroom photo's, I wonder how Rudy Guede, if in a zombie state of mind, did not make and track many more bloody shoeprints around while inside Meredith's bedroom nor when going to the bathroom to fetch towels, or also when he went back to clean himself up...

It's a dissociative state not diminished capacity. People in this state function normally and are able to perform complex tasks including cooking meals and driving a car. They just are not conscious of what they are doing. You've seen the reports of the Spanish girls that Rudy was staying with.