Bart Ehrman on the Historical Jesus

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You're joking.
I will argue that all the writings in the NT Canon were composed in the 2nd century or later UNTIL New evidence is found.
In short, you'll write nonsense as long as you think you can get away with it. Answer my questions about your forgery theory.
Non-Apologetic writers wrote NOTHING of the story of Jesus or argued against the Jesus cult until the 2nd century.
So what? Anyway, early texts unflattering to Christianity were suppressed in the fourth century.
 
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dejudge said:
Just look at the evidence in the list of New Testament Papyri.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...stament_papyri

I will argue that all the writings in the NT Canon were composed in the 2nd century or later UNTIL New evidence is found.

Non-Apologetic writers wrote NOTHING of the story of Jesus or argued against the Jesus cult until the 2nd century.

You're joking.

You call actual evidence a joke.

You don't make any sense.

Where is the evidence for your HJ--the assumed Obscure crucified criminal?

You have nothing but your imagination and 2nd century or later myth fables.

You don't even know that Bart Ehrman admitted at least 18 books of the NT Canon are forgeries or falsely attributed.

Your HJ is NOT Plausible.

An Obscure crucified criminal is the very worse explanation for the start of the Jesus cult.

Romans do not worship Jewish criminals as Gods.
 
You call actual evidence a joke. <snip rest>.
You've hit that paste key again and sent that stuff for the millionth time. Aaaargh! Why don't you instead respond to my previous post. Here it is, in case you have forgotten it.
The entire NT, in fact. dejudge, how was this forgery done? By what sorts of people, where and when? Why?

Did they use existing material, or start with blank sheets? If they used existing material, where did that come from? Who composed it? ... But hey, dejudge knows the sort of questions that need answering about his claims. Give us an account of this, please, when nothing more urgent commands your attention.
 
You've hit that paste key again and sent that stuff for the millionth time. Aaaargh! Why don't you instead respond to my previous post. Here it is, in case you have forgotten it.

I have answered your questions.

Your HJ is a Myth derived from your imagination.

You never ever had any evidence from antiquity pre 70 CE of your assumed obscure criminal from the very start.

You don't even know the name of your HJ.

Your HJ is an undocumented myth.

Who told you that your HJ was executed because he created a disturbance at the Jewish Temple?
You made up the story.
 
I have answered your questions ...
No you have not! You just posted a link to a catalogue of early manuscripts. What that is supposed to prove, I can't imagine. So answer me, and don't just lazily press that old "paste" key.
 
No you have not! You just posted a link to a catalogue of early manuscripts. What that is supposed to prove, I can't imagine. So answer me, and don't just lazily press that old "paste" key.

Again, I have answered your questions.

You made up a story about your un-evidenced HJ.

You don't even know the name of your HJ.

Your HJ is nameless, faceless and without history.

Your HJ is worse than a Myth--at least a Myth is given a name.
 
It certainly doesn't help that Chrestus was a very common name and even title going back as far as the 5 century BCE (Mitchell, James Barr (1880) Chrestos: a religious epithet; its import and influence; Pleket, H.W.; Stroud, R.S.. "Egypt. Funerary epithets in Egypt.(26-1702)." Supplementum Epigraphicum Graecum. Current editors: A. T. R.S. R.A. Chaniotis Corsten Stroud Tybout. Brill Online, 2013.) and there may have been a pagan group that called Chrestians running about.

One inscription dated to the 1st century BCE is to "Iucundus Chrestianus" and there is a supposed Erythrean Sybil prophesy from the time of Homer that states IESOUS CHREISTOS THEOU HUIOS SOTER STAUROS.

In fact, Homer himself uses CHRISTI "Yet the word Christes means rather a white-washer, while the word Chrestes means priest and prophet, a term far more applicable to Jesus, than that of the "Anointed," since, as Nork shows on the authority of the Gospels, he never was anointed, either as king or priest."

This (and several other facts) leads to the following theory:

"All this is evidence that the terms Christ and Christians, spelt originally Chrest and Chrestians [chrestianoi] (Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Lactantius, Clemens Alexandrinus, and others spelt it in this way) were directly borrowed from the Temple terminology of the Pagans, and meant the same thing."

But and this is where the sting in the tail come in--both Chrest and Chrestian predate the time of Jesus by nearly 400 years and even Panarion 29 Epiphanius in the 4th century expressly states "this group did not name themselves after Christ or with Jesus’ own name, but Natzraya." a term that was applied to all followers of Jesus. He then relates that they were even called Jessaeans for a time. Then the group at Antioch started calling themselves Chrestians.

Also there an inscription of Chrestians for Christians showing that while the terms may have once meant the same thing that by the time of Paul they we being applied to two very different groups something Tertullian in the 3rd century basically hits everybody over the head with. Lactantius goes over how the ignorant transform Christ "by the change of a letter are accustomed to call Him Chrestus"...which would not explain why you have Christ and Chrestians in the same freaking document (our oldest copy of Acts).

The more you dig the more it appears that Jesus if he did exist had the nickname Chrestus (the good) rather then Christ (messiah) which would go a long way to explain why his followers still called themselves Chrestians in their holy writings clear into the middle of the 5th century CE. And if that is true then we are looking for a Chrestus cult for the idea of a 100 BCE Jesus have any validity.

I suspect that when it came time to create an orthodoxy out of the disparate strands of savior cults there may well have been strands that conflated 'the good' with 'the anointed' based on the similarity of the words. The creators of some of the literature seemed also to have some difficulties with understanding the Septuagint and didn't realize it contained significant mistranslations.
 
Just look at the evidence in the list of New Testament Papyri.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...i#List_of_all_registered_New_Testament_papyri

I will argue that all the writings in the NT Canon were composed in the 2nd century or later UNTIL New evidence is found.

Non-Apologetic writers wrote NOTHING of the story of Jesus or argued against the Jesus cult until the 2nd century.

As long as you make your arguments based on evidence you will find yourself in conflict with those who are basing their arguments of faith in the notion that the Book of Acts is a reliable history of 1st century events.
 
I suspect that when it came time to create an orthodoxy out of the disparate strands of savior cults
Pre-existing Myths!
there may well have been strands that conflated 'the good' with 'the anointed' based on the similarity of the words. The creators of some of the literature seemed also to have some difficulties with understanding the Septuagint and didn't realize it contained significant mistranslations.
I take it that you intend sooner or later to provide evidence for this absurd exegesis of maximara's gibberish. Then you could dispense with the "suspect", "may well have been", "seemed to have some difficulties with understanding", "didn't realise" etc, etc.
 
Jesus had a real brother and a real mother? Oh well that settles it then; he must have been real.

Surprising that all those sceptical authors from Bruno Bauer to Albert Schweitzer to G.A.Wells and right up to Richard Carrier and Earl Doherty today, all failed to notice the real family of Jesus.

Paul mentions somewhere Jesus had at least 500 siblings, and apparently some brothers wanted to marry some of their sisters!

1 Corinthians 15:6

"After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep."

1 Corinthians 9:5

"Have we not the right to take along a sister (adelphen), a wife, as do the rest of the apostles and the brothers (adelphoi) of the Lord and Cephas?"

Maybe Mary was an egg-laying sort of creature, like an amphibian or an insect? That would be the best explanation of birthing hundreds and hundreds of young.
 
Pre-existing Myths!

It may surprise you to know that religions did exist before the establishment of a christian orthodoxy.

I take it that you intend sooner or later to provide evidence for this absurd exegesis of maximara's gibberish. Then you could dispense with the "suspect", "may well have been", "seemed to have some difficulties with understanding", "didn't realise" etc, etc.

You have any problem with scholars' translation of 'chrestus' and the archaeological and literary evidence of its being a name in common use during the time period in question?

Or are you going to cite an imaginary 'consensus of Ancient Near East Historians' again?

Please, give us the benefit of your great learning!
 
I suspect that when it came time to create an orthodoxy out of the disparate strands of savior cults there may well have been strands that conflated 'the good' with 'the anointed' based on the similarity of the words. The creators of some of the literature seemed also to have some difficulties with understanding the Septuagint and didn't realize it contained significant mistranslations.

There was no difficulty with understanding the Septuagint. Those who fabricated the story of Jesus appear to have deliberately MUTILATED the Septuagint.

The Jesus cult Christian writers put out a most blatant lie/propaganda that the Jews KILLED the Son of God and that was the reason for the Fall of the Jewish Temple.

1. In Acts--Peter claimed the Jews Killed the Son of God.

2. In 1 Thessalonians--A Pauline writer claimed the Jews Killed the Son of God.

3. In the Apology--Aristides claimed the Jews Killed the Son of God.

4. In "First Apology"--Justin claimed the Jews Killed the Son of God.

5. In "Against Heresies"--Irenaeus claimed the Jews Killed the Son of God.

6. In "Treatise Against the Jews"--Hippolytus claimed the Jews Killed the Son of God.

7. In "Answer to the Jews"--Tertullian claimed the Jews Killed the Son of God.

8. In "Against Celsus"--Origen claimed the Jews Killed the Son of God.

9. In "How the persecutors died"--Lactantius claimed the Jews Killed the son of God.

10. In "The Proof of the Gospel"--Eusebius claimed the Jews Killed the Son of God.


After the Jewish Temple Fell c 70 CE, the same propaganda, that the Jews Killed the Son of God, which was used to explain the Fall of the Temple later became the basis of the NEW cult in the 2nd century.
 
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proudfootz


Apparently we agree.

Always good to find common ground.

What Gospel narratives could we presume were written before Paul died? I think none, and that Paul's death is part of the explanation of why any of them were written. Just a personal view of course. No doubt there were some Jesus stories floating around in Paul's time, as the good-messages/gospels of whichever preachers told them, and probably some scuttlebutt, too. I don't see any way that Paul could have reliably guessed which of those stories, if any, "Mark" and later writers would choose to include in their books and he obviously couldn't guess the ones, if any, that they made up or that others made up after Paul died.

The way I see it it there are several options.

1) Gospel narratives did exist in some form when Paul written, but

a) Paul was aware of them but they are irrelevant, or

b) Paul is not aware of them.

2) Gospel narratives did not exist when Paul was written. In which case it is perfectly understandable why he does not refer to them.

I think this is not an exhaustive list of possible solutions, but it would apply whether Paul is early or late.

It also applies whether Paul is of the same 'tradition' as the gospel narrative cult or isn't.

What Paul probably did know, in my view, is the gospel (gospels?) according to the James Gang, the gospel according to Apollos, and so forth, since these were the competing products. Alas, we don't know what was in those gosepls, so Paul knowing or not knowing doesn't help us much either way. Among other things, we don't know what Paul believed from those gospels - we aren't even sure exactly what was in them that he was warning his flock to avoid. Apparently, they didn't contain Galatians 2:15 ff, or so Paul would like us to think.

It's true we don't know what Paul's competitors believed. It could be virtually anything.

I see no reason to assume it is anything like the gospel narratives.

The two interpretations are not mutually exclusive, mutually supportive in fact, and certainly it is no rhetorical deficiency to make two intimately related points in one stroke. Regardless, the passage accomplishes what I said it did. "Any claim by others to authority now on account of an earlier discipleship is nicely checked by 2 Corinthians 5: 16." You can assume that's a coincidence if you like. I don't.

Yes, it could mean a lot of things. This is the difficulty of not having much evidence to go by. One could say it means virtually anything and there would not be sufficient reason to demonstrate whether it was correct or incorrect.

I'm not sure what 'coincidence' means here. I'm not suggesting Paul was the first to discover his Jesus in scriptures. And he certainly wasn't the last. We just don't have much to go on about what these earlier cults believed.

Yes, but that isn't Paul's argument, probably because there's very little in the Jewish Bible about Gentiles who do not live among Israelites being asked to be circumscised, to keep kosher, etc. If you have something you think Paul should have used about that, then that would be interesting.

All the more reason to cite stories about 'what would Jesus do' as the ultimate authority, as that is the only thing in common between judaizers and hellenizers. In my opinion, of course!
 
There was no difficulty with understanding the Septuagint. Those who fabricated the story of Jesus appear to have deliberately MUTILATED the Septuagint.

The Jesus cult Christian writers put out a most blatant lie/propaganda that the Jews KILLED the Son of God and that was the reason for the Fall of the Jewish Temple.

1. In Acts--Peter claimed the Jews Killed the Son of God.

2. In 1 Thessalonians--A Pauline writer claimed the Jews Killed the Son of God.

3. In the Apology--Aristides claimed the Jews Killed the Son of God.

4. In "First Apology"--Justin claimed the Jews Killed the Son of God.

5. In "Against Heresies"--Irenaeus claimed the Jews Killed the Son of God.

6. In "Treatise Against the Jews"--Hippolytus claimed the Jews Killed the Son of God.

7. In "Answer to the Jews"--Tertullian claimed the Jews Killed the Son of God.

8. In "Against Celsus"--Origen claimed the Jews Killed the Son of God.

9. In "How the persecutors died"--Lactantius claimed the Jews Killed the son of God.

10. In "The Proof of the Gospel"--Eusebius claimed the Jews Killed the Son of God.


After the Jewish Temple Fell c 70 CE, the same propaganda, that the Jews Killed the Son of God, which was used to explain the Fall of the Temple later became the basis of the NEW cult in the 2nd century.

This is why I'm not persuaded the cults that became christianity were born in the context of cultural Jews. It makes more sense it was the New Age religion of its time, with people unfamiliar with the context but willing to interpret traditions that they had little or no foundation in.

Which would also explain why this cult's literature all comes from outside its supposed point of origin.
 
Yes, it’s true! 500 of his brothers and sisters all saw him at once! He was dead at the time. This evidence! Really!

And when did the Pauline writer compose those things? Is there a date of authorship in 1 Corinthians?

None of the authors of the NT corroborate the Pauline post-resurrection narrative about the more than 500.
 
Paul mentions somewhere Jesus had at least 500 siblings, and apparently some brothers wanted to marry some of their sisters! ...

Maybe Mary was an egg-laying sort of creature, like an amphibian or an insect? That would be the best explanation of birthing hundreds and hundreds of young.
No, not siblings. Not in my version of Corinthians. Just "brethren"; not "of The Lord". But since you value Biblical evidence.
Matthew 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas ...
And four hundred and ninety six others? Again, not in my copy.
 
This is why I'm not persuaded the cults that became christianity were born in the context of cultural Jews. It makes more sense it was the New Age religion of its time, with people unfamiliar with the context but willing to interpret traditions that they had little or no foundation in.

Which would also explain why this cult's literature all comes from outside its supposed point of origin.

This would also explain why there would be no literature from a Jew called Paul in the 1st century pre 70 CE about a Barbaric human sacrifice of a Jew.

The Jesus story makes NO theological sense while the Jewish Temple was still standing and Jews were carrying out Temple Sacrifices for Remission of Sins.
 
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