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Theists: Please give me a reason to believe in your superpowered invisible overlord

16.5 said:
If you intentionly asked the question in the most obnoxious way possible in the hope of not getting an answer that would challenge your preconceptions, I dare say you have succeeded!

Good luck with that!
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So asking for objective evidence, conclusive data or reasoned arguments, you find obnoxious?
 
1) Everything that begins to exist has a cause
2) The Universe began to exist; implying that it has a cause
3) Therefore, God exists

:boxedin::boxedin:
 
Snarf said:
Tide goes in, tide goes out.
You can't explain that.
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I can explain it. If it just went out you'd never see it again.

Now if I can just figure out what sea level would be if all the sponges were removed from the oceans.
 
MontagK505 said:
So asking for objective evidence, conclusive data or reasoned arguments, you find obnoxious?
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Yeah, pretty much.

16.5 is right. The OP asks a simple-minded question which, in more sophisticated, nuanced forms has been explored by minds big and small for centuries...millennia, actually. There are libraries and writings and journals of enormous extent dealing with all the issues around this complex topic.

I took the OP to be simply sarcasm with no real intent to spark a meaningful discussion. Too bad it remains in Religion and Philosophy; I'd recommend moving the thread to Humor.
 
SezMe said:
16.5 is right. The OP asks a simple-minded question which, in more sophisticated, nuanced forms has been explored by minds big and small for centuries...millennia, actually. There are libraries and writings and journals of enormous extent dealing with all the issues around this complex topic.
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To just focus on the first item Vortigern mentioned: could you point us to some of that objective evidence presented in those libraries fulls of writings and journals on the subject?

Just three examples suffice.
 
MontagK505 said:
You haven't demonstrated the "cause" is God.
And you haven't explained what caused the cause.
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Welcome to the cosmological argument. You found two plot holes. There are more. You're already smarter than William Lane Craig who, despite years of study, has found none to date.
 
Those two plot holes are situated at either end of The Argument and they both lead to Teh Bibble. From there it loops out to either end, as required, to avoid counter-arguments.

If space-time can bend, then so can christian logic, by Heck!
 
tsig said:
I don't see why it makes more sense, all it does it add a layer to the origin of the universe.

nothing>universe

vs

nothing>god>universe

If intelligent beings can come from nothing we can just say that humans came from nothing and save steps.
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You conveniently ignored the first half.

nothing>universe makes less sense than god>universe.

This implies the comparison between 'something' (matter) existing outside of time or forever, or 'god' doing the same.

Since we have objective evidence of intelligence (us) the question becomes whether it makes more sense for the intelligence to have come from pre-existing intelligence or from nothing.

Theists find it more logical (to them) that intelligence arises from intelligence, just as life arises from the living. Atheists find it more satisfying that life can arise from the non-living building blocks of life.

As an agnostic, I don't pretend to have the answers. But I keep an open mind about it. As a scientist, i find no objective evidence of a deity.
As an artist, I find it hard to wrap my mind around aestheticism without a deity. Evolutionary programming is unsatisfactory. But we humans are frail creatures...;)
 
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stanfr said:
You conveniently ignored the first half.

nothing>universe makes less sense than god>universe.

This implies the comparison between 'something' (matter) existing outside of time or forever, or 'god' doing the same.

Since we have objective evidence of intelligence (us) the question becomes whether it makes more sense for the intelligence to have come from pre-existing intelligence or from nothing.
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However, that only shifts the problem down the line (or up the line?). Where did that, arguably greater, pre-existing intelligence come from? In fact, theists only make the problem bigger because the question is then not just where the moderate intelligence of humans comes from, but where the much bigger intelligence of God comes from.

stanfr said:
As an artist, I find it hard to wrap my mind around aestheticism without a deity.
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A deity as the origin and instiller of our sense of aestehticism, or a deity as the inspiration for many an artistic work? I fully agree with the latter, not so much with the former.
 
Vortigern99 said:
The title says it all. Theists: Please give me a reason to believe in your superpowered invisible overlord.
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Just the one reason? They have acess to weapons of mass destruction and a history of taking a dirrect approach to herasy. Please ask slightly more sensible questions in future.
 
Sideroxylon said:
No, not really. Evangelicals often drop in with snarky questions about evolution and receive abundant informative responses.
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Indeed, even an old canard like "why are there still monkeys" will get an actual answer(a lot of expressed frustration too, understandably) and links etc, if the explaination leads to other questions these also get answers and someone is generally willing to take the time to explain at the questioner's level of understanding and background knowledge.
 
ddt said:
However, that only shifts the problem down the line (or up the line?). Where did that, arguably greater, pre-existing intelligence come from? In fact, theists only make the problem bigger because the question is then not just where the moderate intelligence of humans comes from, but where the much bigger intelligence of God comes from.
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I specifically stated the presumed deity always existed or existed outside of time. Are you saying its easier to presume that something that has those qualities would more likely be unintelligent? I might buy that argument, but entropy, despite its tricky definition, suggests otherwise.

A deity as the origin and instiller of our sense of aestehticism, or a deity as the inspiration for many an artistic work? I fully agree with the latter, not so much with the former.
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Agreed.
 
Entropy suggests an intelligent god outside time? Sounds like a stand-up smack-down answer to the OP.

Have. At. It.
 
IIIClovisIII said:
1) Everything that begins to exist has a cause
2) The Universe began to exist; implying that it has a cause
3) Therefore, God exists

:boxedin::boxedin:
Click to expand...

Just because a cause exists why would that cause have to be god?
 
SezMe said:
Yeah, pretty much.

16.5 is right. The OP asks a simple-minded question which, in more sophisticated, nuanced forms has been explored by minds big and small for centuries...millennia, actually. There are libraries and writings and journals of enormous extent dealing with all the issues around this complex topic.

I took the OP to be simply sarcasm with no real intent to spark a meaningful discussion. Too bad it remains in Religion and Philosophy; I'd recommend moving the thread to Humor.
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Yet with all those great minds and libraries of writings there is no answer strongly indicating that question itself is meaningless.
 
ddt said:
However, that only shifts the problem down the line (or up the line?). Where did that, arguably greater, pre-existing intelligence come from? In fact, theists only make the problem bigger because the question is then not just where the moderate intelligence of humans comes from, but where the much bigger intelligence of God comes from.


A deity as the origin and instiller of our sense of aestehticism, or a deity as the inspiration for many an artistic work? I fully agree with the latter, not so much with the former.
Click to expand...

Why would art need to be inspired by god? It looks like just another human act.
 
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