Merged Ukraine erupts in riots and general strike.

[angrysoba]

How is the EODE a neo-nazi group. Present some backing for that

Eurasian Observatory for Democracy and Elections (EODE) is a Russia-based far-right non-governmental organization which on its website claims that it monitors elections.[1] It is led by the Belgian far-right activist Luc Michel.[2] EODE's other leader is Jean-Pierre Vandersmissen. Both Michel and Vandermissen are followers of the Belgian Neo-Nazi politician Jean-François Thiriart.[3][4] According to Oliver Bullough, on its website the organization stated that "it shares the values of "the current Russian leadership and V.V. Putin.""[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_Observatory_for_Democracy_and_Elections

So a group that "shares the values of Putin" is supposed to be an impartial observer of elections, now?

 

[angrysoba]

I doubt anyone in contact with Planet Earth seriously doubts this fact.

Like I said, it is obviously both.

If it were not then why would the Ukrainian military have simply handed over their weapons and armoured vehicles and then taken the bus home?

 

[McHrozni]

I doubt anyone in contact with Planet Earth seriously doubts this fact.

There's a significant difference between knowing something and having proof beyond reasonable doubt. The testimony in the article is one of the pieces of the latter.

What I find interesting is that all these people buy the "Kiev government are fascists" line spoon-fed to them by Kremlin. Fascists typically don't hold elections right after seizing power, and they don't tolerate armed insurgents taking over government buildings, nor do they permit hostile propaganda in their jurisdictions. These are among those who pretty much prove Kiev government is anything but fascist. Again, something no one in contact with Planet Earth could doubt in, but there's a difference between knowing and having proof. Just idiocy and wishful thinking I guess.

I really do wonder what Putin's endgame is.

McHrozni

 

[magellan]

So I suppose Russian involvement is becoming clearer and clearer. This is no longer a domestic insurgency. This is an invasion.

No.
The wording was very missleading. The folks who want to join russia put russian flags on the Ukrainian vehicles.
They were able to do that because the ukrainian army did what it always does: "Are you the terrorists we are supposed to be fighting? Yes? Here. Have the keys to my tank."

(Seriously, why did they call it an "anti terror action"? Was there any place where that wasn't put in scarequotes? Or was that the only way that they could justify sending tanks against their own people?)

Anyway: what indeed becomes clearer and clearer is that Kiev doesn't have support of the military.

 

[McHrozni]

No.
The wording was very missleading. The folks who want to join russia put russian flags on the Ukrainian vehicles.

I believe angrysoba even cited this part:
The armed men, meanwhile, made little secret of the fact they took orders from Moscow. Many of them appeared to be Russian troops from Crimea. Asked where he had come from, one told the Guardian: "Simferopol."

Proof beyond reasonable - nay, all - doubt this is an actual Russian invasion.

McHrozni

 

[uke2se]

How is the EODE a neo-nazi group. Present some backing for that.

Ok.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_Observatory_for_Democracy_and_Elections

It's led by Luc Michel and Jean-Pierre Vandersmissen, both followers of neo-Nazi politician Jean-François Thiriart.

I find it hard to believe seeing that on their site you can see the orgnization is involved in monitoring elections in various african nations, and in east europe.

They are Putin lovers, so presumably Putin invites them when he needs to make an election seem legit. Too bad people know they are neo-Nazis.

What stopped the US from gutting Iraq, Syria, Libya, various latin american nations, the phillipines, and etc?

Off topic and a tu quoque. This is about Russian aggression.

Sorry but aggressive states will be aggressive and usually invade nations where it makes economic sense, regardless of anyone else. It seems foolish to me to engage in international wars so people can die for the political ambitions and reputations of their leaders and for lands they don't live in.

People are already dying. People died in Georgia. People die constantly in Chechnya. People have died and - as long as Russia doesn't back down - will continue to die in Ukraine. The wars you want to avoid are happening anyway, the difference being it's out of sight and out of mind for you.

So long as military action between nations has no direct effect on the safety of the geographic US I can see no reason why US money and lives need to be wasted.

For starters, nobody has asked the US to attack Russia, so this is a strawman of your creation. Secondly, the US prides itself for standing up for Democracy. It has done so with varied success in the past. Even if one is to be cynical and assume that the US never does anything without a self-interest, it is definitely in their self-interest to have a stable Europe and a Russia that isn't a threat to its neighbors.

Boosting NATO troop presence around Russia is very clearly an act of aggression, especially if we look at NATO claiming that Russia boosting troops on its Ukranian border as an act of aggression.

It's an entirely defensive measure, which is obvious to everyone, including Putin.

Can I source what eastern ukrainians have said? Sure here you go.
http://rt.com/op-edge/ukraine-blackw...es-russia-794/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...d-Donetsk.html

No, I asked if you could prove that it is true.

Russia doesn't have to de-escalate for the US/NATO to do so. They could do that themselves with no need from anything from Russa.

No, they could not. They would not be living up to their deal with their Eastern member nations if they did.

Hard to claim I have the cause and effect mixed up and then claim its because of Putin, when NATO was expanding in Russia's back yard when Yeltsin was in office.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv.../yeltsin24.htm

I was talking about recent NATO movements.

Is it strange that nations that feel threatened by Russia would want to join NATO? In fact, their fears have been shown to be absolutely founded in reality by recent events.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Don't believe a word? What was wrong with the report?

How shall I know? I'm saying, like McGovern said about Anders **** Rasmussen: "He's not a serious person."

 

[uke2se]

I've been reading a bit about Neo-Bolshevism and Alexandr Dugin, and I think I'm starting to understand where our "anti-imperialists" are coming from. It's a fascist movment that wants to be seen as distinct from previous fascist regimes, but at the same time praises Waffen-SS. It's quite vile, and it seems like it recruits disillusioned Westernerns in anti-Americanism, instead wanting to tie Europe closer to Russia, so that Russia can stand as leader of a powerful anti-American block.

One of Dugin's principles was the annexation of Russian speaking territories in Eastern Ukraine and Crimea.

 

[Caustic Logic]

I've been reading a bit about Neo-Bolshevism and Alexandr Dugin, and I think I'm starting to understand where our "anti-imperialists" are coming from. It's a fascist movment that wants to be seen as distinct from previous fascist regimes, but at the same time praises Waffen-SS. It's quite vile, and it seems like it recruits disillusioned Westernerns in anti-Americanism, instead wanting to tie Europe closer to Russia, so that Russia can stand as leader of a powerful anti-American block.

One of Dugin's principles was the annexation of Russian speaking territories in Eastern Ukraine and Crimea.

Oh my gosh, that eeire. I't just like you snuck into one of our meetings and saw the inner workings. Heil ... erm, Trotsky!

 

[angrysoba]

I've been reading a bit about Neo-Bolshevism and Alexandr Dugin, and I think I'm starting to understand where our "anti-imperialists" are coming from. It's a fascist movment that wants to be seen as distinct from previous fascist regimes, but at the same time praises Waffen-SS. It's quite vile, and it seems like it recruits disillusioned Westernerns in anti-Americanism, instead wanting to tie Europe closer to Russia, so that Russia can stand as leader of a powerful anti-American block.

One of Dugin's principles was the annexation of Russian speaking territories in Eastern Ukraine and Crimea.

The National Bolshevists and Dugin were mentioned by Snyder in his NYRB piece which showed that many of the people calling the Maidan movement fascist were themselves fascist. Dugin's group even has a Nazi flag with a Communist hammer and sickle replacing the swastika.

As we know the whole region is infected with anti-semitism and far-right/Nazism.

Unfortunately, their Ukrainian counterparts were outside the Kiev government demanding harsh military action against East Ukraine's protesters. They have some interesting and distinctive haircuts, like a cross between skinhead with a Hitler side parting.

Of course, many of the protesters in the east and the military sent to wrest control back support neither Dugin nor the ghost of Bandera, but if ideology and nationalism doesn't work maybe payment will as some oligarchs are now trying to buy up some patriotism.

Military patriotism among Ukrainians is now being financially rewarded. Dnipropetrovsk Oblast governor and billionaire Igor Kolomoisky is offering cash bonuses for those who fight against pro-Russian separatists.

“We have decided to pay Hr 500,000 to the members of the Mariupol military unit that stood against the attack. We ask the unit commander to contact us. Or by the end of the day we will find you ourselves,” Dnipropetrovsk Deputy Governor Borys Filatov wrote on his Facebook page on April 17.

Ukrainian National Guardsmen overnight on April 17 killed three Kremlin-backed militants and injured 13 more when a large armed group tried taking over their military base in Mariupol, Donetsk Oblast’s second largest city, Interior Minister Arsen Avakov stated on his Facebook page.

Anyone who furthermore arrests a Kremlin-backed saboteur and passes him to the National Resistance Headquarters in Dnipropetrovsk Oblast will receive $10,000. Freeing any government building will lead to a $200,000 reward, disarming separatists of their weapons could to allow earn an additional $1,000-2,000, Dnipropetrovsk Oblast Administration press officer Kateryna Shovkova told the Kyiv Post.

This is a dubious tactic though. Like in Afghanistan it might result in a smart solution to that annoying neighbour who nobody really liked. Shop in as a Russkie spy (he's Russian so that's enough!) and collect the dough!

 

[angrysoba]

There is a useful city-by-city guide to what's going on in the East in the Guardian although it is already somewhat out-of-date due to today's events.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/16/crisis-east-ukraine-city-by-city-guide-map

 

[McHrozni]

Putin admitted Crimea was occupied militarily before the referendum.
http://rt.com/news/crimea-defense-russian-soldiers-108/
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/04/17/russia-putin-crimea-idUKL6N0N921H20140417

To ensure the people of Crimea would come to the correct result in the referendum, no doubt.

McHrozni

 

[IDB87]

Putin admitted Crimea was occupied militarily before the referendum.
http://rt.com/news/crimea-defense-russian-soldiers-108/

I'm shocked, shocked I tells ya.

 

[carlitos]

Some claim russia is involved,

Some, including Vladimir Putin.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/04/17/russia-putin-crimea-idUKL6N0N921H20140417

From the link:

President Vladimir Putin said Russian forces had been active in Crimea in order to support local defence forces, the first time he has admitted deployment of Russian troops on the Black Sea peninsula.

"We had to take unavoidable steps so that events did not develop as they are currently developing in southeast Ukraine," Putin said in a televised call-in with the nation. "Of course our troops stood behind Crimea's self-defence forces."

So, the plain-uniformed troops in Crimea were Russian troops, but the plain-uniformed troops in Eastern Ukraine today that look just like those troops are ... homegrown activists. Sure.

 

[uke2se]

The National Bolshevists and Dugin were mentioned by Snyder in his NYRB piece which showed that many of the people calling the Maidan movement fascist were themselves fascist. Dugin's group even has a Nazi flag with a Communist hammer and sickle replacing the swastika.

As we know the whole region is infected with anti-semitism and far-right/Nazism.

Yep, which is why it's so tedious to hear Putin-huggers complain about the "fascists in Kiev".

Unfortunately, their Ukrainian counterparts were outside the Kiev government demanding harsh military action against East Ukraine's protesters. They have some interesting and distinctive haircuts, like a cross between skinhead with a Hitler side parting.

Yes, it is worrying. Hopefully, opening the country up to the west will serve to curb the worst excesses of these fascist supporters. Russia seems to be decending further and further into the grip of fascism, so abandoning the Ukraine to the fascists in Moscow would not be in the best interest of the Western democracies.

Of course, many of the protesters in the east and the military sent to wrest control back support neither Dugin nor the ghost of Bandera, but if ideology and nationalism doesn't work maybe payment will as some oligarchs are now trying to buy up some patriotism.

That's quite disgusting, but that's oligarchy for you.

 

[McHrozni]

I'm shocked, shocked I tells ya.

Putin admitting it is a pretty big deal. As I mentioned before, knowing something and having proof beyond all doubt are two distinct things.

McHrozni

 

[Puppycow]

Jews ordered to register in east Ukraine

Jews in the eastern Ukrainian city of Donetsk where pro-Russian militants have taken over government buildings were told they have to "register" with the Ukrainians who are trying to make the city become part of Russia, according to Israeli media.

Jews emerging from a synagogue say they were handed leaflets that ordered the city's Jews to provide a list of property they own and pay a registration fee "or else have their citizenship revoked, face deportation and see their assets confiscated," reported Ynet News, Israel's largest news website.

There's a picture of these leaflets.

This is really alarming. Looks like they are setting the stage for ethnic cleansing.

 

[NoahFence]

You know, I didn't realize that the cliché Russian bad guys leaders with the jogging pants holding AK's and smoking cigarettes were real until this episode, so that's worth a giggle.

 

[NoahFence]

Jews ordered to register in east Ukraine


There's a picture of these leaflets.

This is really alarming. Looks like they are setting the stage for ethnic cleansing.

Not. Good.

 

[jimbob]

Putin admitting it is a pretty big deal. As I mentioned before, knowing something and having proof beyond all doubt are two distinct things.

McHrozni

Didn't Russia deny that earlier? on a phone so can't easily check