Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Bill Williams]

My trouble with that is that I think even a second person in the room would leave obvious evidence of his or her presence. Based on the size of the room, I think it most likely only Ruby and Meredeth were in that room when the rape and murder occurred.

For some reason, the lack of forensics pointing to either Knox or Sollecito did not play at all in the Oct 28, 2008, condemnation of Rudy Guede by Judge Paolo Micheli.

The claim of a "single attacker" was "thoroughly gutted", according to Micheli. The reasons cited for this gutting are as follows:

- Micheli quotes a "Supervision Order", in which was written:

* "The first element to be highlighted, and that - in the comparison between the different arguments put forward by
counsel for the defendants in these proceedings - ictu oculi appears thicker towards Knox and Sollecito to the position
of GUEDE, covers the objective of emergency homicidal action carried out by more people, rather than by a single
author.On this point, in order of relevance to the data forensic, you must record the initial position of dr. LALLI, CT of
the Public Ministry, according to which there would be no findings in support of either hypothesis. The report of the
Scientific Police (UACV) filed at the preliminary hearing focuses instead on the presence of typical defensive wounds
on the palmar region and on the thumb of the right hand of the victim, apparently came into contact with the blade of
the knife, that fact, to reconnect to bruise from withholding, does suggest "an action of violent coercion by multiple
attackers, also in order to prevent the woman to oppose the blade of the weapon."​

Micheli then discusses the objection to this from a "technical note" offered by Knox's defence (at Rudy's fast track trial) which argued for a single attacker. Please note that this "technical note" was not one commissioned by Micheli or offered to Micheli by Knox's defence team, he just quotes from it.

Micheli then concludes "multiple atackers" first by implying that Meredith would never have let Rudy in. One of Rudy's confessions implied that he'd had a date with Meredith, or as Micheli puts it...

is not true that MEREDITH brought him into the house by
virtue of tenderness or winks the night before, sexual contact mentioned above was not to
be correlated to an intimate moment above all​

Therefore this is the beginning of "multiple attackers, acc. to Micheli, which starts with Knox being the keyholder, and being the only one who could have let Rudy in. (Note how all these evidenceless assertions gain currency against Knox, who is not a party to this fast track trial against Guede!)

The "Supervision order's" assumptions, plus the assertions made by Micheli culminate in Micheli further discerning as factual, that "the criminal conduct was put in place in the competition among multiple authors."

Apparently, this is how osmotic logic works.

Fast forward to Jan 2014. What Nencini was charged with doing by Cassazione, was harmonize the "factoids" as logically derived by Micheli onward about Rudy (and hence about Knox), with the trials against Knox and Sollecito.

And that started with the ISC in March 2013 quashing the Knox/Sollecito acquittals, because Hellmann's reasons did not line up with facts as already derived about Knox at Rudy's fast-track process.

Rudy's process had already ascertained, with no evidence presented, that Knox had let Rudy in. And from that, that the burglary had to have been staged, and there was only one person with motive to do that - Knox. And further (since she and Raffaele are there anyways) that they took part in the attack on Meredith.

Friends - this is how osmotic logic works.

 

[Kaosium]

As above, by saying 7 30 I am taking a leaf from Grinder's book, be an authentic sceptic. If it was truly 6 30 it proves Rudy was in the house to kill or stress at 9. I read your 2012 posts and realise there is nothing new since then except a loathsome and sinister reconviction. At least Hitler believed in his cause. Nencini is worse.

One thing is new, the prosecution is not proposing a ToD of 11:45 PM ToD like before, and from what I heard of the Nencini show trial they've even abandoned 10:30 as well.

Just to simplify this, pretend for a moment that there was reliable evidence that the perpetrator to a crime was a male taller than 6'2" tall, perhaps a partial camera shot establishing that the person had to be taller than 6'2" tall, but nothing definite as to how much taller. At that point the fact that only ~4% of the male population is taller than 6'2" cannot make it improbable that this person being that tall is improbable, there's already evidence suggesting that is so, just like there's evidence Meredith went 2.5-3.0 hours without passing anything to her duodenum.

However you can look at data and show that if the perp was taller than 6'2" that it is more likely he was 6'3" than 6'4" and that it's very unlikely he was taller than 7' tall. You're at the far right edge of the curve and the probability is declining downwards with every inch. There's actual data on this we played with in stats class (many years ago!) and it it conforms with that curve, which is why we were utilizing it, just like the curves from the studies on gastric emptying do.

So if only 4% of the population of human males is taller than 6'2" it comes out looking something like this:

6'3" =1.25%
6'4" =1.00%
6'5" =0.75%
6'6" =0.50%
6'7" =0.25%
6'8"+ =0.25%

So what you can do is determine that if you know the perp was taller than 6'2" that there is a 31.25% chance he was 6'3", a 25% chance he was 6'4", an 18.75% probability of being 6'5", 12.5% of being 6'6" and 6.25% that he was 6'7" and the same for all heights over 6'8".

 

[Kaosium]

That's been done too - this thread has it all

Platonov!

There's one thing this thread hasn't seen, it's those who defended the 11:45PM ToD (and mocked the attempts of LJ, Kevin Lowe and others who pointed out how improbable that was) coming to terms with the fact the prosecution itself seems to have abandoned that ToD. Why do you think that was?

Reading through these threads the first time, it was the responses to them on that subject from others (and later you as well) who thought Amanda and Raffaele guilty which put me on guard and (eventually) helped me to the realization that Bunnydom United was little more than liars, frauds and fools. Unlike the intricacies of the DNA evidence, which was well over my head at the time, this is a relatively simple concept. There was no reason for honest arbiters who claimed to be accountants and the like to to obfuscate on it...but they did.


Why do you suppose that was?

 

[Samson]

One thing is new, the prosecution is not proposing a ToD of 11:45 PM ToD like before, and from what I heard of the Nencini show trial they've even abandoned 10:30 as well.

Just to simplify this, pretend for a moment that there was reliable evidence that the perpetrator to a crime was a male taller than 6'2" tall, perhaps a partial camera shot establishing that the person had to be taller than 6'2" tall, but nothing definite as to how much taller. At that point the fact that only ~4% of the male population is taller than 6'2" cannot make it improbable that this person being that tall is improbable, there's already evidence suggesting that is so, just like there's evidence Meredith went 2.5-3.0 hours without passing anything to her duodenum.

However you can look at data and show that if the perp was taller than 6'2" that it is more likely he was 6'3" than 6'4" and that it's very unlikely he was taller than 7' tall. You're at the far right edge of the curve and the probability is declining downwards with every inch. There's actual data on this we played with in stats class (many years ago!) and it it conforms with that curve, which is why we were utilizing it, just like the curves from the studies on gastric emptying do.

So if only 4% of the population of human males is taller than 6'2" it comes out looking something like this:

6'3" =1.25%
6'4" =1.00%
6'5" =0.75%
6'6" =0.50%
6'7" =0.25%
6'8"+ =0.25%

So what you can do is determine that if you know the perp was taller than 6'2" that there is a 31.25% chance he was 6'3", a 25% chance he was 6'4", an 18.75% probability of being 6'5", 12.5% of being 6'6" and 6.25% that he was 6'7" and the same for all heights over 6'8".

Agreed. It's like a one year old will probably die at 80, but an 80 year old will probably die at 90, as a mean expectation. Now that I understand the extra evidence of 6 to 6 30, I am a little surprised, but certain she was alive at 9, as she should have started gastric emptying by 7 50. Unexpectedly 9 is the earliest TOD, and therefore with very high probability, the actual TOD without any extra evidence, of which plenty exists of course.

Therefore proof of innocence is embedded here, especially if Naruto is unchallenged.

Did this forum ever discuss the ballistics behind the embedded glass shard?
This is best observed on the Case for Innocence youtube video at minute 55:10It is my view that this was only achievable at the maximum velocity of the rock, about 28 mph which is the release velocity for a female shotput (9 pounds), and for logical reasons could not be a within the room action, so becomes independent and additional proof of innocence at the macro forensic level. I don't think the dna can get them off the judicial hook, but TOD and break in can for reasons of ease of explanation and argument.

 

[Grinder]

One thing is new, the prosecution is not proposing a ToD of 11:45 PM ToD like before, and from what I heard of the Nencini show trial they've even abandoned 10:30 as well.

Just to simplify this, pretend for a moment that there was reliable evidence that the perpetrator to a crime was a male taller than 6'2" tall, perhaps a partial camera shot establishing that the person had to be taller than 6'2" tall, but nothing definite as to how much taller. At that point the fact that only ~4% of the male population is taller than 6'2" cannot make it improbable that this person being that tall is improbable, there's already evidence suggesting that is so, just like there's evidence Meredith went 2.5-3.0 hours without passing anything to her duodenum.

However you can look at data and show that if the perp was taller than 6'2" that it is more likely he was 6'3" than 6'4" and that it's very unlikely he was taller than 7' tall. You're at the far right edge of the curve and the probability is declining downwards with every inch. There's actual data on this we played with in stats class (many years ago!) and it it conforms with that curve, which is why we were utilizing it, just like the curves from the studies on gastric emptying do.

So if only 4% of the population of human males is taller than 6'2" it comes out looking something like this:

6'3" =1.25%
6'4" =1.00%
6'5" =0.75%
6'6" =0.50%
6'7" =0.25%
6'8"+ =0.25%

So what you can do is determine that if you know the perp was taller than 6'2" that there is a 31.25% chance he was 6'3", a 25% chance he was 6'4", an 18.75% probability of being 6'5", 12.5% of being 6'6" and 6.25% that he was 6'7" and the same for all heights over 6'8".

Well someone finally gets it.

So if the same numbers were used for Meredith's gastric emptying

If 6'3" = 3:10 and 6'4 = 3:20 and 6'5" = 3:30 and 6' 6" = 3:40

then there is 31.25 chance it would take 3:10; 25% 3:20 18.75 3:30; 12.5% 3:40.

In this case I agree with the idea of the ISC that just because the chance of emptying is less than 12.5% or even 6.25% does not make the whole case fall into probable doubt. If the suspect in your example was 6' 6" that wouldn't absolve him. I know the analogy falls apart so the last sentence wasn't fair.

Now if we shift dinner to 6:30, which was the time the defense used, then those numbers shift to the left.

It is a specious argument that because she hadn't started by 9:05 it must have started just after that. The probability may well be greater that it would start sooner than later but that isn't enough to put the TOD at a time certain before 9:30.

Now to the general times we add the stress she encountered before being murdered. When did the stress start? If the meal was 6:30 and it was at the 3 hour mark that would put the stress start time at 9:30. If it was 3:20 it would be 9:50.

For the record I've been moving my time earlier as we have discussed this and would guess that she was attacked no later than 9:15-30. I just don't buy that the digestion data in and of itself puts TOD before 10 as a certainty. Unfortunately for the kids a time early enough to use the 9:15 computer activity for a slam dunk alibi.

 

[Kaosium]

Agreed. It's like a one year old will probably die at 80, but an 80 year old will probably die at 90, as a mean expectation. Now that I understand the extra evidence of 6 to 6 30, I am a little surprised, but certain she was alive at 9, as she should have started gastric emptying by 7 50. Unexpectedly 9 is the earliest TOD, and therefore with very high probability, the actual TOD without any extra evidence, of which plenty exists of course.

Therefore proof of innocence is embedded here, especially if Naruto is unchallenged.

Did this forum ever discuss the ballistics behind the embedded glass shard?
This is best observed on the Case for Innocence youtube video at minute 55:10It is my view that this was only achievable at the maximum velocity of the rock, about 28 mph which is the release velocity for a female shotput (9 pounds), and for logical reasons could not be a within the room action, so becomes independent and additional proof of innocence at the macro forensic level. I don't think the dna can get them off the judicial hook, but TOD and break in can for reasons of ease of explanation and argument.

I'm not familiar with that argument, but I understand what you're saying. However I don't think anyone really believes the rock was used from the inside, it was just a clever way of making them sound guiltier after the proposition that the window required 'Spiderman' to break into crashed and burned before Micheli. They can just say the rock was thrown from the outside and hope everyone will forget that they ever said otherwise, just like everyone seems to have forgotten they ever proposed something as ridiculous as an 11:45 ToD.

 

[Grinder]

Agreed. It's like a one year old will probably die at 80, but an 80 year old will probably die at 90, as a mean expectation. Now that I understand the extra evidence of 6 to 6 30, I am a little surprised, but certain she was alive at 9, as she should have started gastric emptying by 7 50. Unexpectedly 9 is the earliest TOD, and therefore with very high probability, the actual TOD without any extra evidence, of which plenty exists of course.

Dear me you also finally get it. Except you don't understand the gastric emptying differences between people.

RESULTS:
The mean +/- SD of half gastric emptying time (T1/2) of a fluid test meal was determined to be 80.5 +/- 22.1 min and for T(lag) to be 40.3 +/- 10.2 min. However, the T1/2 and T(lag) of solid meals did not fit to normal distribution and thus median and percentiles were determined. The median time of T1/2 for solids was 127 min (25-75% percentiles: 112.0-168.3 min) and 81.5 min for T(lag) (25-75% percentiles: 65.5-102.0 min). No significant correlation was found between gastric emptying and age, sex or BMI.
​

This study shows a median time of 81.5 for T(lag). That would put the MEDIAN AVERAGE TOD at 7:50 with a 6:30 starting time. That means half of all those studied would start AFTER 7:50.

Therefore proof of innocence is embedded here, especially if Naruto is unchallenged.

Well, I'm sure that this will be the only defense the kids' lawyers will use. If one accepts the Lalli duodenum work then Meredith is already over 85 or maybe 90 by your analogy. Look at the results and you'll see that 1 hour 40 minutes is within the 25-75 range. Accept Lalli and Meredith is really tall by the other analogy.

 

[Grinder]

I'm not familiar with that argument, but I understand what you're saying. However I don't think anyone really believes the rock was used from the inside, it was just a clever way of making them sound guiltier after the proposition that the window required 'Spiderman' to break into crashed and burned before Micheli. They can just say the rock was thrown from the outside and hope everyone will forget that they ever said otherwise, just like everyone seems to have forgotten they ever proposed something as ridiculous as an 11:45 ToD.

The rock was thrown from the outside and she died well before 11:45. Nencini will have a nice early time - 10 - 10:15, maybe he'll figure the 9:45 works best for the phone activity and gives the kids just enough time to get there. Curious if he'll argue that only one was there at TOD.

 

[Samson]

I'm not familiar with that argument, but I understand what you're saying. However I don't think anyone really believes the rock was used from the inside, it was just a clever way of making them sound guiltier after the proposition that the window required 'Spiderman' to break into crashed and burned before Micheli. They can just say the rock was thrown from the outside and hope everyone will forget that they ever said otherwise, just like everyone seems to have forgotten they ever proposed something as ridiculous as an 11:45 ToD.

Sure they believe it was inside, they need it. People lash out when challenged. The fact is if you prove it was from outside, it would have happened with a dead body inside. Now no one is that stupid at midnight when the staging was needed. Therefore it was thrown before there was a dead body. Therefore it was thrown before Meredith got home and by Rudy. (Or he threw it and she came down and he said someone with brown hair just threw it and ran away).
Under any scenario if you prove it was from outside the prosecution theory is blown away, IMO.

ETA the point is maximum velocity is needed or the shard ballistics, resulting in maximum noise, plain stupid.

 

[Samson]

Dear me you also finally get it. Except you don't understand the gastric emptying differences between people.

RESULTS:
The mean +/- SD of half gastric emptying time (T1/2) of a fluid test meal was determined to be 80.5 +/- 22.1 min and for T(lag) to be 40.3 +/- 10.2 min. However, the T1/2 and T(lag) of solid meals did not fit to normal distribution and thus median and percentiles were determined. The median time of T1/2 for solids was 127 min (25-75% percentiles: 112.0-168.3 min) and 81.5 min for T(lag) (25-75% percentiles: 65.5-102.0 min). No significant correlation was found between gastric emptying and age, sex or BMI.
​

This study shows a median time of 81.5 for T(lag). That would put the MEDIAN AVERAGE TOD at 7:50 with a 6:30 starting time. That means half of all those studied would start AFTER 7:50.



Well, I'm sure that this will be the only defense the kids' lawyers will use. If one accepts the Lalli duodenum work then Meredith is already over 85 or maybe 90 by your analogy. Look at the results and you'll see that 1 hour 40 minutes is within the 25-75 range. Accept Lalli and Meredith is really tall by the other analogy.

I have just thought this. while an 80 year old will probably die at 90, it is also true that a 119 year old will probably die at 119. Meredith's digestion was almost the 119 year old, so it was probably just beginning at 9 when stress or death intervened. The point is to find an elegant argument for public consumption before the extradition request IMO.

 

[Desert Fox]

I have just thought this. while an 80 year old will probably die at 90, it is also true that a 119 year old will probably die at 119. Meredith's digestion was almost the 119 year old, so it was probably just beginning at 9 when stress or death intervened. The point is to find an elegant argument for public consumption before the extradition request IMO.

I think that just arguing that the trial was for political reasons - internal politics though - is the best argument.

 

[Kaosium]

Well someone finally gets it.

So if the same numbers were used for Meredith's gastric emptying

If 6'3" = 3:10 and 6'4 = 3:20 and 6'5" = 3:30 and 6' 6" = 3:40

then there is 31.25 chance it would take 3:10; 25% 3:20 18.75 3:30; 12.5% 3:40.

In this case I agree with the idea of the ISC that just because the chance of emptying is less than 12.5% or even 6.25% does not make the whole case fall into probable doubt. If the suspect in your example was 6' 6" that wouldn't absolve him. I know the analogy falls apart so the last sentence wasn't fair.

Now if we shift dinner to 6:30, which was the time the defense used, then those numbers shift to the left.

It is a specious argument that because she hadn't started by 9:05 it must have started just after that. The probability may well be greater that it would start sooner than later but that isn't enough to put the TOD at a time certain before 9:30.

Now to the general times we add the stress she encountered before being murdered. When did the stress start? If the meal was 6:30 and it was at the 3 hour mark that would put the stress start time at 9:30. If it was 3:20 it would be 9:50.

For the record I've been moving my time earlier as we have discussed this and would guess that she was attacked no later than 9:15-30. I just don't buy that the digestion data in and of itself puts TOD before 10 as a certainty. Unfortunately for the kids a time early enough to use the 9:15 computer activity for a slam dunk alibi.

It's not a specious argument, it's a damned powerful one but difficult for people to understand and relate to other things they would consider certain indications of innocence. For example, if there was evidence a suspect was 150 miles away 1-1.5 hours before a crime occurred, most everyone would consider that pretty much certain evidence that person was innocent. However, put into numbers those wouldn't look much different than the ones we're using as it is possible to drive 100-150 miles an hour without getting caught, just highly unlikely. Even if their car had a max speed of 90 mph it's still possible they could have stolen/borrowed a crotch rocket and made it there.

Samson hit on the best analogy so far: actuarial tables. Here's one of those to peruse. We can determine which part of the curve we're at by where the data ends. Unless you've found one, there's no studies anywhere showing anyone going more than three hours and twenty minutes without passing something to their duodenum, just like there's no data in that study of people living past 114. Look at how life expectancy for females doesn't change much between 104 and 114, it's 1-2 years, you're at the end of the curve just like Meredith was with going either 2.5-3.0 without passing anything to the duodenum before 9 PM when she returned. Just like the odds are high that something would pass in the next half hour, so are odds that person will die in 1-2 years and it doesn't really matter that much if they're 104 or 114. Look at the number of females that the data has aged 104 (574) and the number they have aged 114 (1) which gives you an idea of the odds they have to escape that grim prognosis.


Yes, you can say that if she had an empty duodenum when autopsied that the odds are very high that she died before 9:30 PM regardless of whether she started the meal at six or six thirty. When the scientist for Raffaele's defense (Dr. Introna if I recall correctly) made his presentation he used 7 PM as the time of the meal and the data is still powerful even with that allowance.

 

[anglolawyer]

Without wishing to sidetrack the digestion discussion, it's interesting how Italian law treats Curatolo if we bring TOD to 9.45 or thereabouts. We have Mach to thank for explaining this. It's not that the two people he saw in the Piazza from 9.28 exactly could not be Raf and Amanda (because they must have been haring through to make their appointment with death) but just that he proves they are lying about being at home. Reality can go hang.

Curatolo is 'extraordinarily accurate' (Galati) and his ID is reliable because he came to court 'not once but twice' and, God only knows how, picked them out (the ISC) but it turns out that he is only extraordinarily accurate about dates rather than times and his ID evidence can be torn from its context solely for the purpose of bringing them outside when they said they were inside. We can do the same for the scream evidence as, indeed, Briars has and Nencini no doubt will.

All the little pieces can be moved around like in the tasteful board game based on the crime. I wonder how sales are going?

 

[Kaosium]

Sure they believe it was inside, they need it. People lash out when challenged. The fact is if you prove it was from outside, it would have happened with a dead body inside. Now no one is that stupid at midnight when the staging was needed. Therefore it was thrown before there was a dead body. Therefore it was thrown before Meredith got home and by Rudy. (Or he threw it and she came down and he said someone with brown hair just threw it and ran away).
Under any scenario if you prove it was from outside the prosecution theory is blown away, IMO.

ETA the point is maximum velocity is needed or the shard ballistics, resulting in maximum noise, plain stupid.

The prosecution argument is the Zombie Apocalypse, Samson. It doesn't matter how many times you blow it away it comes back still wanting to feed on people's brains!

Most people who think them guilty don't even know the absurd argument regarding the breaking of the glass, and that goes for innocentisti as well, perhaps even more so.

I'm not going to play Devil Advocate on this one, just say that starting with the Matteini Report the 'evidence' against Raffaele and Amanda has been discredited many times and the prosecution just moves on to a different argument with different 'evidence.'

 

[RandyN]

"At 2:15 a.m. on August 15, 1989, Darryl Rush, a drug dealer, was shot to death outside a housing project in Brooklyn. Police a few days later arrested a young woman named Jacqueline Belardo -- an admitted crack addict -- who claimed she recognized the gunman from her window 400 feet from the shooting despite the darkness, and identified Fleming as the shooter. Based on her uncorroborated account Mr. Fleming was charged with murder and the jury convicted him." Jonathan Fleming had family members as eyewitnesses to the fact that he was in vacation in Florida at the time. Police failed to turn over a receipt showing that he was there within 5 hours of the time of the crime. Perhaps Ms. Belardo is a long-lost relative of Mr. Curatolo.

Yes well you miss the obvious point that in 1989 the Concord was still making flights.

I wonder what the relationship between Belardo and Fleming was? She certainly didn't pick him out of a lineup ...400 feet and in the dark.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Night-errant

Without wishing to sidetrack the digestion discussion, it's interesting how Italian law treats Curatolo if we bring TOD to 9.45 or thereabouts. We have Mach to thank for explaining this. It's not that the two people he saw in the Piazza from 9.28 exactly could not be Raf and Amanda (because they must have been haring through to make their appointment with death) but just that he proves they are lying about being at home. Reality can go hang.

Curatolo is 'extraordinarily accurate' (Galati) and his ID is reliable because he came to court 'not once but twice' and, God only knows how, picked them out (the ISC) but it turns out that he is only extraordinarily accurate about dates rather than times and his ID evidence can be torn from its context solely for the purpose of bringing them outside when they said they were inside. We can do the same for the scream evidence as, indeed, Briars has and Nencini no doubt will.

All the little pieces can be moved around like in the tasteful board game based on the crime. I wonder how sales are going?

Obviously, I agree with most of your post. However, the only Amanda Knox game of which I am aware appeared to me to be a conceptual art piece. This was a few years ago; therefore, my memory might be off a bit.

 

[anglolawyer]

Obviously, I agree with most of your post. However, the only Amanda Knox game of which I am aware appeared to me to be a conceptual art piece. This was a few years ago; therefore, my memory might be off a bit.

No, I think there is an actual board game with the layout of the apartment and squares the pieces travel over, like in Cluedo (Professor Plum in the Library with the lead piping in case you know it by a different name). Somebody here will find a link in a minute or two I expect.

ETA that somebody is me.

ETFA the game appears to be rubbish. They have forgotten Amanda's lamp (Meredith's is in situ)

 

[Chris_Halkides]

chutes and ladders

No, I think there is an actual board game with the layout of the apartment and squares the pieces travel over, like in Cluedo (Professor Plum in the Library with the lead piping in case you know it by a different name). Somebody here will find a link in a minute or two I expect.

ETA that somebody is me.

ETTFA the game appears to be rubbish. They have forgotten Amanda's lamp (Meredith's is in situ)

Was this it? "The Amanda Knox Game is a board game based on the true events of November 1, 2007 in Perugia, Italy. Each player takes on the role of an individual present at the crime scene and pursues variable, hidden goals.

Decisions are made in real time. A sand timer is moved along a time track at the bottom of the board advancing fifteen minutes each turn. A die roll moves the player around the four-bedroom ground-floor apartment depicted on the game board.

Players must make choices that may alter or recreate historical events." See also this link.

I have previously speculated on what Amanda did between 12:45 and 5:45 on 6 November 2007, and my best guess is Chutes and Ladders with Donnino, et al.

ETA
I exchanged an email or two with the artist. IIRC only one or at the most two of the game sets were produced.

 

[RandyN]

Greetings,
I kinda get the feel that most who post here are middle to older in age, so you'll probably have to dig deep into the old memory to understand this point I'll try again to make...

Have you recently ever been in a good fist fight?
Or got hurt doin' something stupid and the pain screamed out loudly in your brain?
Sure ya have, as I have too.

Esh,
I had a gal hit me with her car door as I pedaled my bicycle a few years back as I rode by, just cruising' along towards her car,
(mind you, not like the dudes and chicks all wrapped up in spandex speedin' along Pacific Coast Highway here near the beaches of Los Angeles.), ya know, when BAM!, RW was thrown into the street, luckily I didn't get ran over by a car.
OW! It hurt.

Of course 1 of my hands went to the wounded area immediately, (before I went to the ER and spent hours doin' a buncha tests) yes my memory does serves me correct. As it does too when I recall my hands once again, just a coupla weeks ago were checkin' out 1 of my calf muscles which had suddenly goten painfully, I mean soooo painfully sprained as I jogged barefoot along the Pacific Ocean in the soft, not hard, sand. And I'll always check out the damage to myself with my hands if my surfboard hits me or some kook runs me over as I look for my next wave to ride or some ^^^^^^ and I get into a fistfight.

So how come Meredith Kercher was not found clutching her throat wound when found?

This tramatic wound should have forced her, in my humble opinion,
to try and staunch the neck wound herself, for her own self preservation and survival.
Both of her hands should have been covered in blood, I'd think.
Instead, they're not, from what I gather.

Ecks,
1 of her arms and hands is raised skyward, as if attempting to fight back against someone. And it has what appears to be a hair strand in her grasp. Another hair strand was apparently found by her naked genitalia. Both hair strands when tested did not, from what I understand, point to either Raffaele Sollecito nor Amanda Knox.

Some here believe that Rudy Guede, if he broke into the lawyers office, probably had an accomplice.
Someone more of a "pro"...

The tow truck driver recalls seeing a dark colored car parked in the entrance to the driveway of Meredith's flat when he arrived, this being while Rudy Guede was probably still inside. What was this car doing there?

Is it too hard to formulate a theory that it is indeed possible, what with all the screw-ups that ILE did in this horrible murder case, that other evidence, possibly pointing to another perp, a "pro", was overlooked or suppressed because it did not fit the theory that PM Mignini, (who was, IIRC, directing the investigation and evidence collecting) himself believed?

Don't you too wonder why much of the personal evidence that Miss Kercher wore that night,
was not collected until 6 weeks or even months later, like her blue sweatshirt jacket ,
which had "poor" Rudy's DNA on the sleeve cuff, was?
Look at this article with photo's of some of Miss Kercher's clothing:
http://www.examiner.com/slideshow/a...ence-not-collected-by-forensic-police#slide=1


Have a look at Miss Kercher's upraised arm and hand again from a previous post of mine:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=9948756#post9948756
and then imagine why she would not have immediately, or anytime soon afterwards until she died, tried to cover and protect her knifed throat. She was suffocating on her own blood!

Read some of the autopsy reports:
http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/ronhendry7.html

Even if she might have gotten slightly stabbed in her hand after her throat was knifed, as Hendry suggests, I'd bet she would have wanted to reach up and cover that hole in her throat:
http://images.teinteresa.es/sucesos/agonica-muerte-Meredith-Kercher_TINIMA20110907_1137_18.jpg

Shouldn't both of Meredith's hands and arms have been found extremely bloody and near her neck?


And as I wonder whose car it was that the tow truck driver saw that night, whom there is never any mention of someone getting into it and then driving away while he works on that families broken down car just across the way, I also wonder about that probable semen stain on the pillow underneath Meredith's naked body, who does it belong to? And I wonder that if that is indeed someone's hair in Meredith's dying upraised hand, whom does it belong to?

Surely none of these belong to Raffaele Sollecito or Amanda Knox, right?
For I'd bet the house, err, well my favorite surfboard, that these 2 hair strands would never have been lost.

I'm still perplexed by the Italian Court's rulings in this horrible murder case, for they don't make sense to me...
RW

You know Randy...I recall several discussions about these so called blonde hairs...that is what the PGP called them...certainly only to help implicate AK due to her hair color.

But you are exactly correct...if these belonged to Knox or even RS you can bet all the surf boards in the world that these "hairs" would not have become "lost". And strangely these were not the only missing hairs.

There was hair and blood in Filomenas room that was also "lost". Bet that was RG DNA data.

In the end the hairs in poor Miss Kerchers hand were likely light colored hairs from her own head...either highlighted or else poorly photographed.

But the Italian police and prosecutor understand perfectly what to do with inconvenient evidence. Lose it! Lose it and still use it as a suggestion that the the two wrongly accused are the likely owners of the missing data. Lost hairs, burned hard drives, missing interrogation tapes...but wait there is more...much more. Missing/destroyed control sample data, destroyed/used up DNA samples...36b knife blade and rusted and destroyed bra clasp sample...how convenient all?

Lets not forget bloody wet towels improperly stored and so allowed to rot to the point where no DNA was recoverable...multiple pieces of bloody important evidence left after the first "complete" DNA and scientific investigation. 6 weeks later we see the bloody blue outer garment with sleeves inside out. How is that even possible?

Not only does that jacket help define the time of attack...shortly after Miss Kercher arrived home indisputably at between 9 and 9:05...according to the CCTV data. And speaking of CCTV...

That apparently is also missing. If there is nothing on the cctv cameras between RS place and the cottage then that would seem to be evidence to me. Just as if there was video of someone on it...it is evidence...but that is missing as well.

EDF's are missing, witnesses are missing watches and eyes to look outside after hearing the bloodcurdling scream she can never forget...or so says Nara...forgot to wake her daughter laying right there near her too.

The Brit girls cant remember what time they ate but are not vilified but Knox also cant remember the exact time but that makes her guilty. And she at least had the excuse of having just "burned one"! Which could make details fade...

Put this stuff all together and it says something. Forget Mignini interview with Guede. That will be as available as the Knox interrogation tape, all the missing lost data and evidence, the strange circumstances of missing hairs and blood...boo!

 

[Kaosium]

Was this it? "The Amanda Knox Game is a board game based on the true events of November 1, 2007 in Perugia, Italy. Each player takes on the role of an individual present at the crime scene and pursues variable, hidden goals.

Decisions are made in real time. A sand timer is moved along a time track at the bottom of the board advancing fifteen minutes each turn. A die roll moves the player around the four-bedroom ground-floor apartment depicted on the game board.

Players must make choices that may alter or recreate historical events." See also this link.

I have previously speculated on what Amanda did between 12:45 and 5:45 on 6 November 2007, and my best guess is Chutes and Ladders with Donnino, et al.

ETA
I exchanged an email or two with the artist. IIRC only one or at the most two of the game sets were produced.

Chutes and Laddders....heh...heh...heh. If that's a reference to what (and who) I think it is...heh...heh...heh....