Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Grinder]

Yes, I'm anxious to read it too. What could it possibly say? Will he bring back the knife and bra clasp? If not then what evidence do they have that AK and RS were in the room? None right?

If he does bring the knife and clasp back he's essentially saying that their crime lab is sophisticated enough to detect LCN DNA on a knife that was, in their opinion thoroughly cleaned. But at the same time he would be implying that the lab wasn't able to pick up what should be relatively large amounts of DNA from them in the murder room, where they would have had to been to use the knife or touch the clasp. IMHO it's a huge unresolved contradiction.

I guess that he will move the TOD to @10pm. He will leave the cause open. It could be money, living style or even sex gone bad. He will say that without identifying the contamination one must accept the results of Stefanoni.

I wonder if he will drop Curatolo which helps the prosecution case immensely. He may also vague away Nara.

I also think he will concentrate on the kids' behavior after the murder.

 

[Planigale]

Harry Rag spreading disinformation http://justice4ever.com/2014/04/amanda-knox-case-questions-answers-harryrag/#disqus_thread

 

[Bill Williams]

Harry Rag spreading disinformation http://justice4ever.com/2014/04/amanda-knox-case-questions-answers-harryrag/#disqus_thread

Whereas Harry Rag is all about spreading disinformation to all parts of the Internet....

.... Andrea Vogt is about protecting the first prosecutor's reputation, Giuliano Mignini. In this case she does it by going after Greg Hampikian

Hampikian’s name is often cited by Knox apologists for his support of her defense as demonstrated by his controversial publicly-funded Knox research at Boise State University (BSU). Read here to learn how journalist Andrea Vogt has been denied access to Hampikian’s correspondence with the defense, information she requested under the Freedom of Information Act (FOI). BSU lawyers claim release of the requested information would jeopardize ‘economic trade secrets’ protected by Idaho state law.

Vogt specializes in disinformation, too. And these people have the utter gall to accuse Knox of being involved in a PR campaign....

My word, what has Harry Rag been doing for 5 years?

 

[Samson]

I guess that he will move the TOD to @10pm. He will leave the cause open. It could be money, living style or even sex gone bad. He will say that without identifying the contamination one must accept the results of Stefanoni.

I wonder if he will drop Curatolo which helps the prosecution case immensely. He may also vague away Nara.

I also think he will concentrate on the kids' behavior after the murder.

I suspect he will allow for the Naruto cartoon, but cast doubt on it to gain more flexibility. He may not mention it. However I distinctly recall he took note of it with a surprised demeanour at the trial. It is no doubt an intriguing item. I thought it was indisputable, but Grinder I think you said it was disputed. Is that correct?

 

[analemma]

Harry Rag spreading disinformation

It looks like the whole guilter troll universe is on this comment section, harry, atlan, gimbal, a full court press.
We could really use some approve votes for the IIP defenders in this comment section.
Analemma

 

[Grinder]

I suspect he will allow for the Naruto cartoon, but cast doubt on it to gain more flexibility. He may not mention it. However I distinctly recall he took note of it with a surprised demeanour at the trial. It is no doubt an intriguing item. I thought it was indisputable, but Grinder I think you said it was disputed. Is that correct?

AFAIK the defense presented this Naruto evidence at the first appeal trial or the first ISC review. I'm no expert in computer access or anything to do with computers so I'm not making any claims myself. I don't know if a neutral expert found the evidence of the 9:26 start time. It will be interesting to see how Nencini handles that detail.

I confess I don't remember whether someone here produced the proof of this.

 

[Samson]

AFAIK the defense presented this Naruto evidence at the first appeal trial or the first ISC review. I'm no expert in computer access or anything to do with computers so I'm not making any claims myself. I don't know if a neutral expert found the evidence of the 9:26 start time. It will be interesting to see how Nencini handles that detail.

I confess I don't remember whether someone here produced the proof of this.

I think DanO regards it as beyond doubt and RoseM says Crini seems to accept it, giving an alibi to one of them till 9 26 plus walking time. Then the phones are out of Meredith's hands by 10 and probably out of the house about then. I am not sure why PGP are looking forward with such keen anticipation to this report, but no doubt they will seize it as legal and factual truth regardless.

 

[Bill Williams]

Rudy's Supreme Court sentencing, which reduced his sentence to 16 years because of "mitigating circumstances" - 16 Dec 2010, (Umberto Giordano, President: Enzo Iannelli, reporting judge, filed 24 Feb 2011)

These are conclusions drawn from Rudy's appeal to the Italian Supreme Court by that court, conclusions which effect Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito.

- Raffaele called the Carabinieri after the postal police arrived
- Kercher biological material found on kitchen knife-blade
- Raffaele DNA was on bra hooks, although contested.
- At interrogation, Rudy said Meredith let him in.
- At his third interrogation, though, he said Meredith let him in but that Amanda was actually in the cottage (mention only of "a man with a knife")
- The appeals judges (in Rudy's process) found that two knives were used in a crime of "insistent violence".
- Appeals' judges said there was clear indication of Knox and Raffaele at house, as well as having the only interest in a clean-up, to simulate a theft, and a rape.
- Appeals judges had no doubt of Knox and Sollecito being involved (note: remember, this is the ISC's final motivations about Rudy!)
- Knox and Sollecito (acc. to Appeals) left footprints detected by luminol.
- Appeals judges saw "I was there" to be an admission by Knox of her guilt. (note: remember still, this is Rudy's motivations!) and they were seen by Curatolo.

- (However, it is unclear if in this, Rudy's appeal decision by the ISC, whether or not the ISC itself holds to those points.)
- It says the ISC is only concerned with whether or not Guede was involved since this is his trial... "In the meantime it is now necessary to escape the attempt, pursued by the overall setting of the defence, but out of place in the context of this decision, to involve the Court in supporting the thesis of the responsibility of others, namely Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox, for the murder aggravated by the sexual assault of Meredith Kercher. The decision to which this court is called concerns uniquely the responsibility of Guede regarding the deed with which he is charged...."
- the appeallate judges have ruled correctly that a later simulation of a crime happened which could not have been done by Guede.
- it was a group crime, "the brutal and subduing force of a group, a collective behaviour which reveals in its sorry protagonists the orgiastic desire to give free rein to the most [22] perverse criminal impulses, such as to arouse a deep sense of dismay, repugnance and disgust in any person of normal morality"​

Strictly speaking, then, the ISC in signing off on Rudy in 2011, only "ruled" those last three things about AK and RS.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Jonathan Fleming case

"According to Koss, it was recently discovered that two vital pieces of evidence had been kept from Fleming's original defense team. That evidence, Koss said, shows that Fleming was in Orlando, Fla., on Aug. 15, 1989, the day Darryl Rush was gunned down outside a Brooklyn housing project....The police detectives also denied ever recovering the phone receipt." link

Either one single person in LE behaved unethically, or (more likely) more than one did (I don't dare to use the c-word to describe it, however). When PI-commenters point out the ethical lapses of ILE, we are not making the claim that these improprieties are in any way unique to Italy.

 

[JREF2010]

Harry Rag

a lying coward.

hmm? sounds like Rudy Guede?

 

[Desert Fox]

a lying coward.

hmm? sounds like Rudy Guede?

Yes but more important is that he is a rapist and murder who is doing his damn best to take two innocent people down with him. If nothing else shows that he is a sociopath, that does. Bodes very ill for him not committing more crimes after he gets released.

 

[anglolawyer]

I think DanO regards it as beyond doubt and RoseM says Crini seems to accept it, giving an alibi to one of them till 9 26 plus walking time. Then the phones are out of Meredith's hands by 10 and probably out of the house about then. I am not sure why PGP are looking forward with such keen anticipation to this report, but no doubt they will seize it as legal and factual truth regardless.

Hey! If he moves TOD forward to between 9.30 and 10 he can revive Micheli's moving the body idea. Given all the other arbitrary features of the process why not convict the defendants using a theory they have not been confronted with since 2008? Then the blood-curdling, valley-echoing scream can stay at 11.30 (but only if we amend Toto's time keeping and make him deaf) when Amanda sees the body before running out (to make the footstep noise) before calming down (a lot) and going back to arrange the scene. Easy! I actually don't know why Bill keeps harping on about the guilter timeline because this is it. Conclusive proof of murder to the Italian standard of proof where three compatibles = a match and nobody ever lies (copyright, Grinder).

 

[RandyN]

I think DanO regards it as beyond doubt and RoseM says Crini seems to accept it, giving an alibi to one of them till 9 26 plus walking time. Then the phones are out of Meredith's hands by 10 and probably out of the house about then. I am not sure why PGP are looking forward with such keen anticipation to this report, but no doubt they will seize it as legal and factual truth regardless.

I understand what you are saying ....but at this point this is all just so much BS! RS is all over the internet. He is a damn fool if he fails to read here or somewhere at least where he could easily disseminate this information.

He needs to do this much like AK is translating and providing the case information. It is he who is the most jeopardy right now IMHO. Less Linkedin and Twitter and more open and translated facts on the bigger questionable items.

I suppose it is lost already anyway but Id be damned if I would give up yet. Get the facts out! Why is no one publishing this DNA missing and contamination data? Or are we to believe that just our one guy here is the only person who can study, analyze and conclude that something is very wrong with the numbers...the data?

Catching the prosecution and police withholding this data is a strong evidence of an unfair trial. Forget double jeopardy...the ECOHR has upheld Italys take on that. But I am positive they would have an issue with the scientific lab withholding suspicious data. Proof of contamination. Lack of standards. Lies. Deception.

5 people on the bra clasp and the defense still needs to prove contamination? How crazy is that concept? And yet where is the defense?

C and V. They either got all the data or they did not. Which is it... and where is it? This is so stupid at this point. How can this all not be a result of corruption? If you hide the data...you are a liar, a cheat...end of story!

But has any lawyer sued in court to get access to this data yet? Meanwhile their clients are headed back to jail...WTH?

Who cares what the latest judge actually writes...his court found them guilty beyond all doubt. I am quite certain he will write something equally idiotic to Massei...and he will get away with that. Why? Because no one is raising particular hell.

Remember the earthquake scientists? That is Italy. Remember the 60 year old pedophile? That is Italy.

What happened to the slander case against Knox parents? Id demand to be heard. How else can the full depth of the corruption be understood in this case by simply letting these unusual circumstances go UN-examined? Let Italy start explaining why Mignini has so many sub-related cases in this one case? And why are they protecting him and hiding him? No retrial for Mignini? Why not?

 

[Bill Williams]

Hey! If he moves TOD forward to between 9.30 and 10 he can revive Micheli's moving the body idea. Given all the other arbitrary features of the process why not convict the defendants using a theory they have not been confronted with since 2008? Then the blood-curdling, valley-echoing scream can stay at 11.30 (but only if we amend Toto's time keeping and make him deaf) when Amanda sees the body before running out (to make the footstep noise) before calming down (a lot) and going back to arrange the scene. Easy! I actually don't know why Bill keeps harping on about the guilter timeline because this is it. Conclusive proof of murder to the Italian standard of proof where three compatibles = a match and nobody ever lies (copyright, Grinder).

I'd like to think I "ask", but "harping" will do.

I've just read the Borsini motivations, which is supposed to explain why Guede is guilty, and Borsini seems to think that Knox and Sollecito had representation in his courtroom, because he certainly accepted a lot of Guede's excuses for why he couldn't have done it alone.

I've also just read through the Feb 2011 final ISC sign-off on Rudy's crime, and there's a Hellmannesque disclaimer in it that they are really required to name who the other people are, in what they find as factual - multiple attackers.

I just wish I had read a timeline from them. Those two courts apparently get to cherry-pick evidence... and in Rudy's trials there was no "trial phase". because the lack of a "trial phase" is what makes it fast track.

The Italians have a knack for making a simple, horrid but simple crime complex. And where's Barbie Nadeau when you need her to pipe up, that Amanda Knox knows something she's not telling us?

The knowable time-line with an osmotic accounting for evidence is - Guede broke in, he did it. At first robbery was his motive, but then his lust took over when the victim arrived with no idea what awaited.

 

[Samson]

What is it reasonable for the protagonists to expect?

Rudy Guede.
It is reasonable for him to expect Meredith and Amanda know school is out tomorrow, and the lawyers do what lawyers do, have a maxed out holiday, so he may offend at leisure.
Amanda Knox.
She plans to go to Gubbio, so she knows school is out. She expects Meredith to party through the long weekend with her friends knowing school is out. If Meredith had mentioned class tomorrow, Amanda would have said, "but it's a holiday". Amanda had no contact with Meredith after (2pm)?

What is not reasonably expected is for Meredith to be having an early night preparing for school.
When Raffaele starts the cartoon, it is illogical for Amanda to pack the knife and drag him to number 7 to play a post Halloween prank on Meredith. It is not reasonable to expect she is there.

 

[codyjuneau]

What is it reasonable for the protagonists to expect?

Rudy Guede.
It is reasonable for him to expect Meredith and Amanda know school is out tomorrow, and the lawyers do what lawyers do, have a maxed out holiday, so he may offend at leisure.
Amanda Knox.
She plans to go to Gubbio, so she knows school is out. She expects Meredith to party through the long weekend with her friends knowing school is out. If Meredith had mentioned class tomorrow, Amanda would have said, "but it's a holiday". Amanda had no contact with Meredith after (2pm)?

What is not reasonably expected is for Meredith to be having an early night preparing for school.
When Raffaele starts the cartoon, it is illogical for Amanda to pack the knife and drag him to number 7 to play a post Halloween prank on Meredith. It is not reasonable to expect she is there.

.
Yes, lawyers do what lawyers do, lovers do what lovers do, and burglars do what burglars do. Rudy by his own admission found the cottage empty at 8:30 pm. An isolated and empty cottage. It is what burglars look for, it is the opportunity they seek, so he took advantage of it and broke in, just like burglars always do. And all the evidence proves it. Unfortunately Meredith arrived home before he left.
.

 

[Samson]

As I proposed a while back, here is an independent medical assessment according to these links, with no knowledge of the expected outcome.

link 1

http://snmmi.files.cms-plus.com/docs/Guideline for Adult Gastric Emptying.pdf

link 2

http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/digestion/basics/transit.html

If you read both these in detail, and study graphs, tables and so on carefully, what would you regard as the longest time for a 20 year old woman in regular health who ate pizza, then after a time ate apple crumble, to have a still empty duodenum (small intestine), after commencement of eating? She allegedly binge drank till 4am, and allegedly started this meal at 6 30pm. Size of meal would be larger than the standard test meal I imagine. It is suggested the standard test meal is in part designed to get the subject in and out of the procedure in a timely fashion.

Answer.

Gastric emptying starts soon after the second meal then you would expect the duodenum to contain food within maybe a half hour after ingestion


Complete gastric emptying is highly variable
The pizza may have completely passed the duodenum at the time the apple crumble was ingested.

The person would have to be dead to have an empty duodenum within an hour at the most I would think following the apple c.

ETA I could have included the stomach contents from the pathologist that included the pizza.

 

[Grinder]

As I proposed a while back, here is an independent medical assessment according to these links, with no knowledge of the expected outcome.

link 1

http://snmmi.files.cms-plus.com/docs/Guideline for Adult Gastric Emptying.pdf

link 2

http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/digestion/basics/transit.html

If you read both these in detail, and study graphs, tables and so on carefully, what would you regard as the longest time for a 20 year old woman in regular health who ate pizza, then after a time ate apple crumble, to have a still empty duodenum (small intestine), after commencement of eating? She allegedly binge drank till 4am, and allegedly started this meal at 6 30pm. Size of meal would be larger than the standard test meal I imagine. It is suggested the standard test meal is in part designed to get the subject in and out of the procedure in a timely fashion.

Answer.

Gastric emptying starts soon after the second meal then you would expect the duodenum to contain food within maybe a half hour after ingestion


Complete gastric emptying is highly variable
The pizza may have completely passed the duodenum at the time the apple crumble was ingested.

The person would have to be dead to have an empty duodenum within an hour at the most I would think following the apple c.

ETA I could have included the stomach contents from the pathologist that included the pizza.

Samson I've explained this a number of times to no rebuttal or agreement.

If we are going on the data that Meredith's duodenum was empty at death and she ate no later than 6:30, we must adjust the findings of all studies on the subject to just those people that haven't begun to empty for 2.5 to 3 hours. The first link provides some information only on how full the stomach is after taking a tiny "meal" and the experiment was set up for the specific purpose of establishing a protocol for diagnosis. The study provides no information usable in this case.

The finding that after 1 hour retention of 90% of the "meal" is abnormally slow already puts Meredith over the number for slow and 60% retained after 2 hours even more so and 30% after 3 hours perhaps a bit indeterminate.

So in this case Meredith, according to Lalli, hasn't digested anything for at least 2.5 hours. She is now left behind all those people in the left column and it appears most all of those in the right column. She falls into a very small group of really slow digesters. Now, the test was done with a much smaller meal all taken at once, not really what we are led to believe here in this case.

So of the demographic of people that have no chyme in the duodenum in 2.5 to 3 hours when eating a pizza and apple crumb what is the mean and median time for the chyme to start moving. Clearly that average time is over 2.5 hours (let's use 6:30 for start of eating) and the end time would be 4 hours (from the 2-4 hours allowed) so it could be as late as 10:30 without going beyond the "normal" range.

I still say the digestion says no later than 10:30 and therefore the Mignini/Curatolo/Massei time of after 11:30 just doesn't work.

The phone call info makes it highly likely that TOD was before 9:55 certainly before 10 and could be anytime after Sophie said goodnight.

Your second link didn't work for me - perhaps just put the title of the article in.

 

[Samson]

Samson I've explained this a number of times to no rebuttal or agreement.

If we are going on the data that Meredith's duodenum was empty at death and she ate no later than 6:30, we must adjust the findings of all studies on the subject to just those people that haven't begun to empty for 2.5 to 3 hours. The first link provides some information only on how full the stomach is after taking a tiny "meal" and the experiment was set up for the specific purpose of establishing a protocol for diagnosis. The study provides no information usable in this case.

The finding that after 1 hour retention of 90% of the "meal" is abnormally slow already puts Meredith over the number for slow and 60% retained after 2 hours even more so and 30% after 3 hours perhaps a bit indeterminate.

So in this case Meredith, according to Lalli, hasn't digested anything for at least 2.5 hours. She is now left behind all those people in the left column and it appears most all of those in the right column. She falls into a very small group of really slow digesters. Now, the test was done with a much smaller meal all taken at once, not really what we are led to believe here in this case.

So of the demographic of people that have no chyme in the duodenum in 2.5 to 3 hours when eating a pizza and apple crumb what is the mean and median time for the chyme to start moving. Clearly that average time is over 2.5 hours (let's use 6:30 for start of eating) and the end time would be 4 hours (from the 2-4 hours allowed) so it could be as late as 10:30 without going beyond the "normal" range.

I still say the digestion says no later than 10:30 and therefore the Mignini/Curatolo/Massei time of after 11:30 just doesn't work.

The phone call info makes it highly likely that TOD was before 9:55 certainly before 10 and could be anytime after Sophie said goodnight.

Your second link didn't work for me - perhaps just put the title of the article in.

I agree the second link doesn't work right now, but it is the one Chris Halkides has also used.
My point is to use agreed facts and scientific links to enquire from medical researchers what the parameters are, with no reference to the case. This simply arrives at the conclusion Meredith was clinically dead or stressed at the first logical time, 9 05. I don't expect you to see it this way, but I am satisfied that a later time of death or stress onset is completely ruled out.

ETA. I am effectively disavowing any personal theory or interpretation. The independent researcher states that she started eating desert no sooner than an hour before her death. I welcome debate of course, but I am stepping aside from my analysis to make a point.

 

[Grinder]

I agree the second link doesn't work right now, but it is the one Chris Halkides has also used.
My point is to use agreed facts and scientific links to enquire from medical researchers what the parameters are, with no reference to the case. This simply arrives at the conclusion Meredith was clinically dead or stressed at the first logical time, 9 05. I don't expect you to see it this way, but I am satisfied that a later time of death or stress onset is completely ruled out.

You aren't saying that someone actually did the analysis but rather that you have taken information from these studies and made your own conclusions, is that correct?

It just isn't shown that 9:05 is the last possible TOD. You have not in any way dealt with the situation that if Lalli's work is accepted on duodenum content (I'm happy to accept it for this) then you are dealing with a population that hasn't started emptying after 2.5 to 3 hours after a meal. In the past 2-4 hours was given here as the range for emptying to start which clearly seems long on the short and long sides from the tiny meal study but may still be accurate for her meal.

ETA. I am effectively disavowing any personal theory or interpretation. The independent researcher states that she started eating desert no sooner than an hour before her death. I welcome debate of course, but I am stepping aside from my analysis to make a point.

Is this done by the Colorado researcher? Do you have the name? So if I understand the above Meredith could not have eaten dessert more than an hour before death. Had she eaten the apple crumble at 8 she was dead by 9 and had she eaten the crumble at 8:30 she would have been dead by 9:30 according to this.

I'll keep trying the link. Is this on IIP or the IIP wiki?