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Wales to ban e-cigarettes in public places

Roger Ramjets said:
The average cigarette yields about 1mg of nicotine, which is well below being lethal. However that does not mean that it is 'harmless'. Nicotine increases blood pressure and clotting, may contribute to atherosclerosis, and has numerous other side effects. Nicotine is as addictive as Cocaine, but 10 times more toxic.
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[citation needed]

E-cigs are potentially more dangerous that conventional cigarettes, because the nicotine is held in liquid form. It is rapidly absorbed through the skin and a dose of 30–60 mg could be lethal.
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rubbish.

Dangerous rubbish at that. E-liquid contains ~2.5% nicotine at the higher commonly available strengths. In order to rub 60mg of the stuff on your skin from e-liquid at 2.5% strength you'd need to coat yourself in 24ml, the average refill tank takes about 3ml. so if that figure was right you'd need to empty almost an entire 30ml bottle on yourself and wait a while without washing it off.

However the commonly used LD50 that's widely used for nicotine is off by about a factor of 10. It's based on centuries old science. A newer estimate for LD50 for nicotine would put it at more like 500-1000mg. [link another link]

It's nowhere near as toxic as commonly claimed. Routinely gets conflated with smoking (smoking is dangerous, nicotine much less so) It's also in our food. Nicotine is produced by the nightshade family of plants, whose members include tomatoes and potatoes.

Everyone who eats a western diet will test positive for nicotine. Food that has nicotine in it contains tiny amounts, so is harmless. Toxicity is a function of dose.

E-liquid *is* very toxic to young children and pets, but e-cigarettes have been around around a decade now and there are probably over 10million e-cig users worldwide. There has been 1 reported fatality from e-liquid. If it was as toxic as the 60mg dose that's often claimed there would very likely have been many more fatalities by now.
 
Ambrosia said:
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There are 4 ingredients in e-liquid. Propylene Glycol, Glycerol, Nicotine and Flavourings. It's only the act of inhaling flavour compounds that is not understood all that well, and potentially there might be some issues as the liquid is heated to produce the vapour and there might be some stuff leaching from the wick/coil because of the heating that it'd be better not to inhale.

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Wick material is usually 2mm twisted silica thread. Cotton can be used as well, but I haven't run across it in pre-made coil heads, The wire is generally 32 or 34 ga. Kanthal wire. The wire is uncoated. I'm not sure what impurities might be added to the silica, but it couldn't be very significant, or last beyond the first couple of uses.

I rebuild my own coil heads. In an excess of caution I usually boil the silica thread, mostly with the idea that it would flush out any loose particles of silica that may be left from the manufacturing process. This might already be done before I get it. I don't know, and it only takes me ten minutes in the microwave to do it again to the several feet of wick I buy at a time.

At any rate the total amount of new wick in a rebuilt coil head (I use a bottom coil style, like this.) is roughly 4mm. Not a great deal for anything to leach from.

Kanthal is an iron-chrome-aluminum alloy commonly used for heating elements. Its main advantageous feature for this application is its stability at high temperatures, which means that there probably isn't much in the way of harmful outgassing or leaching from the heat of using the PV.

When I rebuild a coil I always heat the wire to red hot before I begin because this anneals the wire a bit and makes it more cooperative (stiffer, less springy) when I turn it around the wick Should there indeed be some sort of coating on the wire that process would remove it anyway. Not that I think there is anything to be removed.
 
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Darat said:
My only concern is that there could be long-term effects from the myriad of chemicals being used. I don't think it is out of order for manufacturers to be regulated so folk will know what they are getting.
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I certainly have no problem with some sort of oversight, but I think that if standards of oversight are mandated it should be across the board. E.g. same for the health and nutrition supplement industry.

At any rate I think that "myriad" is more of a FUD ploy by anti-everything activists than an evidence based statement. Food grade propylene glycol, glycerol and food flavorings are the ingredients normally used (in addition to the nicotine, of course). There really isn't any need for anything else.

I have a personal dislike for the smell of some of them but I'm assuming there is no health risk to me - indeed we still allow Brut to be sold so it is clear that noxious smells are not enough to get something banned.
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Ain't that the truth.

It turns out that most people begin vaping with flavors that are an analog of the tobacco flavors they liked, which tends to have an aroma (albeit milder) that is also similar. However, most people quickly gravitate to other more innocuous flavors. My wife prefers a mix which smells very mildly of freshly roasted coffee beans. I tend towards mixes with mostly vanilla and one or another of various berries (This after years of smoking a Dutch handroll blend of tobacco.) I've had no indication that any of these are a problem for people I am with. On the contrary, they are apt to comment on how pleasant the aroma is.
 
The Don said:
Speaking personally as someone who is not currently smoking but who has friends who smoke and who, after a few beers, can be tempted......the temptation is much less if I haven't had nicotine for some time. Whether this means that eCigarettes would inevitably lead to cigarettes is quite a stretch from this but IMO if someone isn't addicted to nicotine then there isn't much of an incentive to start smoking.
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This may be because people rarely get addicted to nicotine before they start smoking. Aside from smokeless tobaccos, I guess, but I haven't run into very many people who start with a chew or snuff and then move to cigarettes. Usually it's the other way around.

Vaping may change that. At least that's what the Chorus Of Doom seems to be claiming, but until they have stats and not anecdotes I'm inclined to be skeptical that there is a major health threat from people becoming addicted by vaping as a primary source of nicotine.
 
quadraginta said:
I certainly have no problem with some sort of oversight, but I think that if standards of oversight are mandated it should be across the board. E.g. same for the health and nutrition supplement industry.

At any rate I think that "myriad" is more of a FUD ploy by anti-everything activists than an evidence based statement. Food grade propylene glycol, glycerol and food flavorings are the ingredients normally used (in addition to the nicotine, of course). There really isn't any need for anything else.



Ain't that the truth.

It turns out that most people begin vaping with flavors that are an analog of the tobacco flavors they liked, which tends to have an aroma (albeit milder) that is also similar. However, most people quickly gravitate to other more innocuous flavors. My wife prefers a mix which smells very mildly of freshly roasted coffee beans. I tend towards mixes with mostly vanilla and one or another of various berries (This after years of smoking a Dutch handroll blend of tobacco.) I've had no indication that any of these are a problem for people I am with. On the contrary, they are apt to comment on how pleasant the aroma is.
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I use the tobacco flavors and my experience has been that people don't notice when I'm vaping unless they see the vapor. I have never had anyone comment on the smell.

I have secretly vaped on airplanes without having it be detected.
 
truthseekershelley said:
Smart move for Wales with all of the recent findings.
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What recent findings are these ? I'm genuinely interested on the grounds that I have been an eCigarette user and that I would likely use eCigarettes in the event that I have a future nicotine craving.

My understanding of the science is:

  • eCigarettes present little or no risk to non-users
  • eCigarettes present a much lower risk than cigarettes for users. This risk (if it exists) relates to the flavouring agents
  • In the concentrations delivered by typical eCigarettes, the health risks from nicotine are negligible

My stance, based on this, is that eCigarettes should be promoted as a means to support giving up smoking (but nicotine use in general should be discouraged) and that eCigaratte use should be allowed in public places. I'm flexible on both of those positions if the scientific evidence supports it.
 
Charlie Wilkes said:
I use the tobacco flavors and my experience has been that people don't notice when I'm vaping unless they see the vapor. I have never had anyone comment on the smell.
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This too. What there are a myriad of are different flavors, with accompanying different aromas. I think the most very noticeable are generally rather mild, and from there they can peter out to undetectable. Certainly an unflavored PG or VG base with nothing but nicotine added would have no aroma to speak of.

I have secretly vaped on airplanes without having it be detected.
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Good for you. A shame it has to be secret.
 
The Don said:
The Welsh assembly is proposing to introduce legislation to curb the use of e-cigarettes in public spaces:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-26837682

Personally I think e-cigarettes are an excellent idea. I'm an occasional smoker (when drunk) which can quickly develop into a habit. If I buy a pack it's usually 17 more cigarettes than I need or want and I'm reluctant to be a mooch. E-cigarettes have the advantage of not going stale and so far a single one has lasted a year.

I can appreciate the position of those who want the use of e-cigarettes banned in public spaces, children will think that it's "normal" to smoke and may not be able to discriminate between real and e cigarettes. On the other hand, how many children are in offices and is it a good idea to send e-smokers outside ?

I would prefer that this legislation was not passed and that e-smokers can smoke indoors (real smokers should continue to be sent outdoors IMO).
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I agree that they are a good way to help people stop smoking, but they should be treated in the same way as real cigarettes.
 
jiggeryqua said:
Because anti-smoking legislation has nothing to do with health, or da ickle chillun, and smokers can't be allowed to get away with cocking a snook at the Holy Nanny State by smoking pretend cigarettes.
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A million kids took up smoking because Kojak sucked popsicles. It's true, it is!
 
quadraginta said:
I'm not sure what impurities might be added to the silica, but it couldn't be very significant, or last beyond the first couple of uses.
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It's more that there might be dirt on the coils or wicks used in factory built mass produced atomisers from China.

quadraginta said:
At any rate I think that "myriad" is more of a FUD ploy by anti-everything activists than an evidence based statement. Food grade propylene glycol, glycerol and food flavorings are the ingredients normally used (in addition to the nicotine, of course). There really isn't any need for anything else.
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Usually the nicotine PG and VG is pharma grade not food grade, though the flavours are food grade standard as that's the best you can get.

I tend towards mixes with mostly vanilla and one or another of various berries (This after years of smoking a Dutch handroll blend of tobacco.) I've had no indication that any of these are a problem for people I am with. On the contrary, they are apt to comment on how pleasant the aroma is.
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My favourites at the moment are a cheesecake flavour and a fruit menthol flavour and the good comments I get in the pub while I'm sitting in the corner outnumber the bad comments 10 to 1 easily.

I'm lucky that my local is a freehouse and the landlord is a vaper.
 
Bit peeved that my first post on JREF is about ecigs but I do see some of the usual anti-ecig pish (Scots for urine) on here so all's I'm going to add is this from the Royal College of Physicians no less published 20 March 2014 "...Switching completely from tobacco to e-cigarettes achieves much the same in health terms as does quitting smoking and all nicotine use completely." "...The main component is propylene glycol, which is thought to be safe, although adverse lung effects from sustained long-term inhalation cannot be ruled out. Similar concerns apply to other constituents, but again the risks are probably slight. Thus.........the direct hazard to users – irrespective of smoking status – and others, from e-cigarettes is low."

what-you-need-know-about-electronic-cigarettes on the Royal College of Physicians website
 
GlennB said:
A million kids took up smoking because Kojak sucked popsicles. It's true, it is!
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It's not even true that he sucked popsicles (frozen dessert), he sucked lollipops - or more specifically he did so once he tried to cut down on his smoking :D
 
Multivac said:
I agree that they are a good way to help people stop smoking, but they should be treated in the same way as real cigarettes.
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Ten bucks says you have no idea what that means, only what you think it means...
 
Do they make e-pipes?
Hugh Hefner is famous for his photo-ops with a pipe.
Can someone post pics here of the various looking types of e-cigs found in Wales?
 
Iamme said:
Do they make e-pipes?
Hugh Hefner is famous for his photo-ops with a pipe.
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Yes.

Try Googling "e-pipes".

Can someone post pics here of the various looking types of e-cigs found in Wales?
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Try Googling " e-cigs", or "vaping", or "electronic cigarettes", etc., etc.. All of those will give you more hits than you can handle, and unless there's some kind of weird barrier to shipping they'll all be available in Wales.

The UK has a very healthy mail order community for vaping products. Sometimes things are available there even before the U.S. sees them, and the prices generally seem comparable. (Although there are a few sources in the U.S. that that offer their stuff at considerably better prices than most of everyone else.)

There are plenty of images of all the products (pipes included) when you do your Google search.
 
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