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Merged Senate Report on CIA Torture Program

Monketey Ghost said:
What, you think they just snatch and torture just anyone?
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Just about. Lots of innocent people were tortured in Afghanistan. Or this:

Since it was opened on January 11th 2002, 779 prisoners are acknowledged to have been held at Guantánamo Bay. Yet in 2006, after many innocents had already been released, analysis of Pentagon data on 517 prisoners by Seton Hall University found 55% were determined not to have committed any hostile acts against the US or its allies, and only 8% were alleged to have had any kind of affiliation with al-Qaeda.
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You're on a fool's errand trying to justify torture.
 
Monketey Ghost said:
If you had information about a plot to destroy the forum, and an investigator tortured you, wouldn't you cough it up?

Of course torture works.

Earlier I was asked to provide evidence that anyone is saying torture never works. Are you saying that or am I misreading you?
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Just to jump in here ...

You are quite wrong 'Monketey Ghost' and there is very good evidence to show just how wrong you are.

Israel has been using torture for several years under the practice of something called the 'Ticking Time Bomb' whereby the authorities are allowed to torture detainees in order to prevent some sort of terrorist attack. And while many hundreds, or even thousands, of people have been tortured, the torture has not even once resulted in one of these terrorist attacks from being stopped.

Again, it gets back to the point that I made earlier ...

By the time the person in question is captured, and
Then delivered to a place where he can be properly tortured by people who know how to torture, and
Then tortured to the point of providing the information, and
Then the information is verified,

Then it is almost always too late for that information to be of anything actionable.

Sorry, but the fact of the matter is that various movies and TV shows periodically show torture as being so effective at getting that one bit of data that makes all of the difference, but in reality torture is a very poor way of getting such data.
 
Monketey Ghost said:
Back to the point made about those being tortured and their willingness to say "anything " to make it stop, doesn't "anything" possibly include the truth?
.
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Sure it does. And how would you know when the right 'anything' was extracted? You can't.
Vindictiveness, revenge, hate, terrorism, petty short-sighted emotionalism, primitive tribalism - these are your good reasons for torture. Obtaining useful information is not on this list.
Stand up, pick a legit reason and embrace it. BS justifications don't cut it.
 
I'm old enough to remember when this debate would have been stopped dead when someone said "hold on, aren't we supposed to be the good guys?"

It's been well established for a long time that torture is counter-productive. So the only reasons to advocate torture are ignorance and sadism. To me, the people here defending torture are letting their public personas slip and revealing more about themselves than they would like. Frankly I wouldn't be surprised if they were typing one-handed while contemplating torture.
 
But we can't believe the first thing you say so we'll have to torture you more to verify it.
 
Garrette said:
But we can't believe the first thing you say so we'll have to torture you more to verify it.
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This doesn't seem like a game I want to play. Do they give them a chance to opt out? "Uncheck this box if you prefer not to be tortured."
 
Wudang said:
I'm old enough to remember when this debate would have been stopped dead when someone said "hold on, aren't we supposed to be the good guys?"

It's been well established for a long time that torture is counter-productive. So the only reasons to advocate torture are ignorance and sadism.
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+1

I have really tried to avoid using the word "evil" in this thread, because I really don't believe in such things. However, there are a few things for which I find the term aptly descriptive. Torture, obviously, is one of those things.

In this, the US government has made us the bad guys. There may not have been any good guys in this.
 
3point14 said:
One of the things I really enjoy about this place is that, every now and then, someone turns up who actually knows what they're talking about (it's never me).

Thank you Garrette
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I know how you feel. Sometimes I stalk the Computers & Internet sub forum, hoping that someone asks a question that will allow me to demonstrate my brilliance. The only time it ever happens is at 2am local time and by the time I see the thread at least 4 other posters will have answered the question already. Sad, I know...

marplots said:
This doesn't seem like a game I want to play. Do they give them a chance to opt out? "Uncheck this box if you prefer not to be tortured."
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Cake or Death?
Death please... no, wait, I mean't Cake!
Too late, you said Death first!
 
I understand I'm far in the minority here.
But let's suppose one of you has Randi's phone number and you want to keep it from me.
I'm pretty sure I could obtain that number from you using torture.

Can we get an honest assessment of that at least? Then I'll leave y'all to your hand wringing and self congratulating.
 
Monketey Ghost said:
I understand I'm far in the minority here.
But let's suppose one of you has Randi's phone number and you want to keep it from me.
I'm pretty sure I could obtain that number from you using torture.

Can we get an honest assessment of that at least? Then I'll leave y'all to your hand wringing and self congratulating.
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Suppose your supposing about who knows Randi's phone number is wrong.

You've used the expressions "I'll bet..." and "I'm pretty sure..." and the like many times in this thread to support your argument. Your bets are losers.
 
Monketey Ghost said:
I understand I'm far in the minority here.
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Minority or majority is irrelevant. If you can make the argument, make it.

Monketey Ghost said:
But let's suppose one of you has Randi's phone number and you want to keep it from me.
I'm pretty sure I could obtain that number from you using torture.
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Possibly. But you could also obtain it by asking and explaining the need, if there really is one, or verbally tripping me up, or using one of the many techniques that actual interrogators use, short of violence.

You also assume an ideal situation, i.e.,

a. You already know the person being tortured has the info
b. You have an immediate means by which to check the veracity
c. Your need is immediate (it is immediate, isn't it? Surely you wouldn't posit torturing someone when the need isn't immediate? Not even you, right?)

Monketey Ghost said:
Can we get an honest assessment of that at least?
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Yep.

Monketey Ghost said:
Then I'll leave y'all to your hand wringing and self congratulating.
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You misunderstand. It's a mix of disgust and sadness.
 
hgc said:
Suppose your supposing about who knows Randi's phone number is wrong.

You've used the expressions "I'll bet..." and "I'm pretty sure..." and the like many times in this thread to support your argument. Your bets are losers.
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Humor me.
 
Monketey Ghost said:
I understand I'm far in the minority here.
But let's suppose one of you has Randi's phone number and you want to keep it from me.
I'm pretty sure I could obtain that number from you using torture.

Can we get an honest assessment of that at least? Then I'll leave y'all to your hand wringing and self congratulating.
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You're not listening. You are attacking a straw man that no one is defending.

For once in this thread, pay attention:

No one is saying that you can't get Randi's phone number through torture. We're saying that you will get any and every number until you stop the torture. The problem is that you won't be able to know, then and there, that you have the true number in order to decide when to stop. In most real situations, you won't be able to pick up the phone to verify which number is true and which one is false.
 
marplots said:
This doesn't seem like a game I want to play. Do they give them a chance to opt out? "Uncheck this box if you prefer not to be tortured."
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We'll just put a clipboard above every torture device:

If we were to use this on you, what would you tell us?

Okay, for real this time, what would you tell us?

Seriously?

Okay.


Just fill that out at each station and we can each save a lot of time.
 
Garrette said:
Minority or majority is irrelevant. If you can make the argument, make it.

Possibly. But you could also obtain it by asking and explaining the need, if there really is one, or verbally tripping me up, or using one of the many techniques that actual interrogators use, short of violence.

You also assume an ideal situation, i.e.,

a. You already know the person being tortured has the info
b. You have an immediate means by which to check the veracity
c. Your need is immediate (it is immediate, isn't it? Surely you wouldn't posit torturing someone when the need isn't immediate? Not even you, right?)

Yep.

You misunderstand. It's a mix of disgust and sadness.
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...assume it's information I can't ask you nicely for and expect to get.
 
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