Merged Senate Report on CIA Torture Program

[Upchurch]

I guess the intelligence officers have a way of sifting the wheat from the chaff. It's not all chaff. Somehow they have to figure out who to spend greater effort on... I don't envy the job, but I won't sit in my comfort and snipe them from the sidelines.

Then you should go back and re-read the OP article. That's the whole point. The CIA lied about how little benefit they got from torturing prisoners.

Look, if I may be allowed to assign motives as well as y'all, I'll say that you guys abhor torture and it is a terrible thing, I agree- the absence of me calling it terrible bugs you, I get that.

That is an interesting rewriting of history. Not only did you fail to "call it terrible", you advocated it.

But the terrorists in question are horrible murderers and it doesn't bother me that they get knocked around and lose sleep during their interrogation.

Then, shame on you for your assumptions of guilt. Shame on you for not understanding the crime against humanity you advocate. Shame on you for lacking humanity.

I hope you are never in a position to make decisions over others, because you make poor decisions and would become an actual monster, rather than an armchair monster.

 

[3point14]

I guess the intelligence officers have a way of sifting the wheat from the chaff. It's not all chaff. Somehow they have to figure out who to spend greater effort on... I don't envy the job, but I won't sit in my comfort and snipe them from the sidelines.

Look, if I may be allowed to assign motives as well as y'all, I'll say that you guys abhor torture and it is a terrible thing, I agree- the absence of me calling it terrible bugs you, I get that.

But the terrorists in question are horrible murderers and it doesn't bother me that they get knocked around and lose sleep during their interrogation.

You're advocating torturing someone based on a guess?

 

[Upchurch]

I understand. Do you understand that M.I. has ways to check information, or do you really think they have the resources to check every little scrap of information they hear? It's no stretch to say they decide who to set aside and who to focus on based on their limited resources.

You don't understand. The signal-to-noise ratio for information from torture is lower than most techniques. Not only is it inherently wrong, but it is one of the least effective ways to attempt to do any good.

Can you get down off your high horse now? Please?

Can you stop wallowing in the muck?

 

[Monketi Ghost]

Then you should go back and re-read the OP article. That's the whole point. The CIA lied about how little benefit they got from torturing prisoners.


That is an interesting rewriting of history. Not only did you fail to "call it terrible", you advocated it.


Then, shame on you for your assumptions of guilt. Shame on you for not understanding the crime against humanity you advocate. Shame on you for lacking humanity.

I hope you are never in a position to make decisions over others, because you make poor decisions and would become an actual monster, rather than an armchair monster.

Whatever lets you get your rage on. I agree that torture is a terrible thing. And yet there are bad guys I don't lose any sleep over whether they had a hard time of it during the interviews. I'm just not so black and white about it, and unwilling to prance around trumpeting my moral authority.

I personally feel that given a terrorist who is withholding, it would be more wrong to use less than what it takes to get that nut to crack.

Someone mentioned armchairs. You feel comfortable sitting in yours and saying "That's wrong, it's never right."
I'll sit in mine and be thankful for the men and women who do the incredibly difficult job of investigating jihadists, and not condemn the methods used. My heart simply does not bleed for terrorists.

As I said before, KSM got water boarded a lot and talked quite a bit, and I have no problem with it.

 

[Monketi Ghost]

You're advocating torturing someone based on a guess?

What, you think they just snatch and torture just anyone?

What's more likely, that M.I. has ways of determining who's a high value prisoner, or that they just flail about hoping they don't just have another Johnny Jihad?

 

[3point14]

What, you think they just snatch and torture just anyone?

What's more likely, that M.I. has ways of determining who's a high value prisoner, or that they just flail about hoping they don't just have another Johnny Jihad?

We're talking about misinformation.

Here's what you said:

"I guess the intelligence officers have a way of sifting the wheat from the chaff."

Of course, if your guess is wrong and they can't, then the act of torture is, all moral considerations aside, useless.

You're advocating use of torture based on a guess.

You're advocating use of torture contrary to every reasonable study I've ever seen concluding that it doesn't work?

What additional information do you have to lead you to conclude that toruture works that the rest of the academic world is missing?

 

[Monketi Ghost]

We're talking about misinformation.

Here's what you said:

"I guess the intelligence officers have a way of sifting the wheat from the chaff."

Of course, if your guess is wrong and they can't, then the act of torture is, all moral considerations aside, useless.

You're advocating use of torture based on a guess.

You're advocating use of torture contrary to every reasonable study I've ever seen concluding that it doesn't work?

What additional information do you have to lead you to conclude that toruture works that the rest of the academic world is missing?

If you had information about a plot to destroy the forum, and an investigator tortured you, wouldn't you cough it up?

Of course torture works.

Earlier I was asked to provide evidence that anyone is saying torture never works. Are you saying that or am I misreading you?

 

[TragicMonkey]

If you had information about a plot to destroy the forum, and an investigator tortured you, wouldn't you cough it up?

If I tell the investigator that you have information about a plot to destroy the forum, and he tortured you, wouldn't you invent information just to get him to stop?

 

[3point14]

If you had information about a plot to destroy the forum, and an investigator tortured you, wouldn't you cough it up?

Of course torture works.

Earlier I was asked to provide evidence that anyone is saying torture never works. Are you saying that or am I misreading you?

If someone tortures me I tell them whatever they want me to tell them to get them to stop.

 

[Monketi Ghost]

If someone tortures me I tell them whatever they want me to tell them to get them to stop.

So, given that what they want is the truth, using Occam's razor, you'd tell them, and torture will have worked. Yes?

 

[Upchurch]

So, given that what they want is the truth, using Occam's razor, you'd tell them, and torture will have worked. Yes?

No, they don't. They want something that sounds like the truth to them. They can't know what is the truth and what isn't.

 

[Distracted1]

If someone tortures me I tell them whatever they want me to tell them to get them to stop.

Why would they stop at that point? Clearly if you know that much you probably have some additional useful tidbits you can be coerced to share.

It seems to me the only way a torturer knows he is finished is when his victim is dead. It reminds me of a " trial by ordeal" - if the accused witch floats she was guilty, if she drowns she was innocent

 

[Monketi Ghost]

No, they don't. They want something that sounds like the truth to them. They can't know what is the truth and what isn't.

Don't you think they check? Organize the information? Cross-reference names they've heard before?

Or do you think it's coincidence that the elite structure of AQ has been decimated and they're stuck focusing their bombing efforts on overseas targets?

All due respect, but I doubt you know what Military Intelligence investigators want.

 

[3point14]

So, given that what they want is the truth, using Occam's razor, you'd tell them, and torture will have worked. Yes?

So, the tuth is, I don't know. Where does that leave us.

or

the truth is, I know, but it contradicts innacurate information you have from elsewhere. Where does that leave us.

or

the truth is, I know and cough up the information at the first sign of discomfort, are you going to believe me? or torture me a little more to be sure?

Where does that leave us?


Bottom line:

You won't know the truth when you hear it. How do you know when to stop?


I, as the torture vicitm am going to keep singing like a canary until you hear exactly what you want to hear. Not the truth, in any reasonable format, just whatever the hell it takes to get you to stop.


I think you just want revenge, sorry. I think that's barbaric. Sorry.

 

[Monketi Ghost]

So, the tuth is, I don't know. Where does that leave us.

or

the truth is, I know, but it contradicts innacurate information you have from elsewhere. Where does that leave us.

or

the truth is, I know and cough up the information at the first sign of discomfort, are you going to believe me? or torture me a little more to be sure?

Where does that leave us?


Bottom line:

You won't know the truth when you hear it. How do you know when to stop?


I, as the torture vicitm am going to keep singing like a canary until you hear exactly what you want to hear. Not the truth, in any reasonable format, just whatever the hell it takes to get you to stop.


I think you just want revenge, sorry. I think that's barbaric. Sorry.

Okay. You've bought the notion that torture never produces valuable information.
I'm sold on the idea that it certainly does, and we'll leave it at that.

 

[3point14]

Okay. You've bought the notion that torture never produces valuable information.
I'm sold on the idea that it certainly does, and we'll leave it at that.

Okay, so, now we know what the question is, we can try to find the answer.

You go find all the evidence you can that torture works, I'll go find the evidence that it doesn't and we'll see where logic takes us.

Up for that?

 

[Monketi Ghost]

Of course it works. How could it not work?
We can't condone it for obvious reasons, but it works. Argument from assertion, of course. Throw up all the links you like, but it works.

If a prisoner will try a thousand lies to make it stop, they'll try the truth too. In which case..

 

[Upchurch]

Don't you think they check? Organize the information? Cross-reference names they've heard before?

So, you think they're doing all that in real time during the torture? "Yep, cia.google confirms it. Let him up."?

Or do you think it's coincidence that the elite structure of AQ has been decimated and they're stuck focusing their bombing efforts on overseas targets?

Are you sure that was obtained through torture?

All due respect, but I doubt you know what Military Intelligence investigators want.

With all do respect, I doubt you understand much of anything about this topic.

 

[Monketi Ghost]

So, you think they're doing all that in real time during the torture? "Yep, cia.google confirms it. Let him up."?


Are you sure that was obtained through torture?


With all do respect, I doubt you understand much of anything about this topic.

Okay. Big time. ETA: I stand corrected, I gave you more respect than your due, and more than you've given me, so we're done here.

 

[3point14]

Of course it works. How could it not work?
We can't condone it for obvious reasons, but it works. Argument from assertion, of course. Throw up all the links you like, but it works.

Erm, would you care to retract that statement, posted on a board dedicated to critical thinking, given all the rules of critical thinking and debate that you're aware of?

Let me know if you're not going to retract it and I'll rip it to pieces for the fallacy ridden piece of wishful thinking it is.

If a prisoner will try a thousand lies to make it stop, they'll try the truth too. In which case..

How do you know which is which?