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Merged Hobby lobby and the slippery slope/SCOTUS decision

What they are saying is that they don't want to facilitate the use of certain contraceptives that they, for religious reasons, think would be considered to be tantamount to being an accomplice in what their religion considers to be murder. There is plenty of precedent for people to opt out of actively fighting in a war for religious reasons due to their religion considering all war to be murder.

But money is fungible. They are already as much an accomplice when they hand over a paycheck, knowing that some of their employees will use it to purchase birth control, or even heroin.

The moral decision point isn't at the level of the corporation - they are exchanging benefits for labor - the decision on moral issues comes at the level of each employee. I'm sure some won't take advantage of any contraception or abortion based on their personal religious leanings, and that's as it should be.
 
As to benefits being a part of wage compensation. If the ACA allowed for companies (who otherwise would have to meet the employer mandate) to instead give their employees a pay boost to cover them buying their own health insurance on the exchanges as individuals then there would be a viable out if they found that the ACA would force them to violate their religious beliefs. But that's not the case and in essence the government is mandating what that wage compensation must be and how much it will cost.

There already exists an out that is even more generous from the company's perspective. Instead of providing insurance, they can pay a fine at a lower overall cost.
 
...some businesses (professional sports, military service) forbid their employees or have serious restrictions on dangerous behavior (motorcycling first and foremost) off-season or off duty.

Motorcycling is "dangerous behaviour"?
 
Something's wrong here. The guy who owns Hobby Lobby said that he'd shut down his business if Obamacare went into effect. Obamacare is in effect so obviously this must be some other business we're talking about.

Steve S
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I stopped doing any business with HL when they came out with this.
 
My first issue - this certainly seems that any ruling in favor of the corporation would by its very nature mean that at least some workers religious freedoms will be trampled on.

If someone doesn't pay for something for you, but you still have every right and ability to pay for it yourself, how have your rights been trampled on? What's the logic there?
 
If someone doesn't pay for something for you, but you still have every right and ability to pay for it yourself, how have your rights been trampled on? What's the logic there?

Off the top of my head, that sounds like a reduction in benefits/compensation that disproportionately effects some employees on the basis of their religious beliefs (or lack thereof).

That is, those employees who need/want those medical benefits must now pay for them out of pocket, whereas those employees who, because of their faith, do not want those benefits don't. It creates a difference in employment conditions based on religion.
 
It also seems to create disproportion between employees who will never need that set of benefits (males) and those who might (females). Although the focus yesterday was about religion, it seems a gender case could also be brought - men at HL receive a more comprehensive insurance package that does not exclude particular portions because of the corporation's beliefs.

Still having trouble with "corporation's beliefs" as a concept but that's a topic for another thread...;)
 
It also seems to create disproportion between employees who will never need that set of benefits (males) and those who might (females). Although the focus yesterday was about religion, it seems a gender case could also be brought - men at HL receive a more comprehensive insurance package that does not exclude particular portions because of the corporation's beliefs.
That is probably why ACA requires insurance providers cover birth-control regardless of gender.

Still having trouble with "corporation's beliefs" as a concept but that's a topic for another thread...;)
I'm curious how often a corporation attends church and, if not, does that weigh on the corporation's conscience?
 
Motorcycling is "dangerous behaviour"?

In the late 1980's service branches started to look at enlisted/NCO off duty injuries, and found that motorcycle accidents was a prime causation.

I know the Navy did just about everything they could to discourage riders - the first riders I ever saw wearing reflective vests were off duty Navy - and I believe the AF got into the act as well.

While you're in service, you pretty well have to accept that you have a narrowed area of choices in off-duty behavior, and those choices narrow the farther up you go the rank ladder and the farther up you go the operational readiness ladder.

if you're in a go fast unit, they don't want you sitting out a deployment because you were out running fast on a bike and lowsided - they'll accept training injuries, but off duty recreational activity injuries almost gets into the realm of dereliction of duty.
 
I dont buy this argument at all. The only way that it works is if you give full human status to corporations. Remember that while this particular company is held by a family it is still a separate entity from the family. As others pointed out. Shoe me where and how a corporation will or will not volunteer for the draft.

Also, you did not address the other point someone raised - what if the owners of the corp are jahovas witnesses and they object to blood transfusion. What if they're fundi xians who believe that all meds are evil and their employees should just pray the disease away?

What if they are mormons and still believe that black people are only 3/5ths human.

Your argument reminds me of the id crowd arguing about micro vs macro evolution.
Where is that magic +1 line in your argument? Why is the limit of religious "freedom". Of corporations end at contraception but not at blood transfusion or requiring their employees to pray towards mecca 5 times a day for the profitability of the corp?


Edit. Oh and i forgot. If they want to be a faith based organization there is nothing stopping them from becoming a non profit faith based mission that uses toys to spread their beliefs.

I think this would be a problem, yeah. The specific example is a corporation claiming they're specifically a type of Christian that objects to abortion. If TSCOTUS supports this request, the precedent is clearly set for every corporation to adopt a religious identity if they find it convenient. Mostly, I would expect rational corporations to select religious beliefs that reduce their costs as much as possible.

So, I expect most would choose to be Christian Scientists, who don't believe in any medicine whatsoever. Great savings if they can opt out of 90% of the ACA.

Another attractive option would be to adopt Scientology, which would justify being excused from supporting any psychiatric treatments.

Having said that... I don't like evaluating a case based on its ability to set a precedent. If I thought the HL case had merit, it would justify setting a precedent so the rights could propagate. It's just that the absurdity of the request is best exposed by showing other examples.
 
I don't object to the specifics of HL's case but I do object to the can of worms that will slither out if the SCOTUS finds in their favor.

<snip>

However, when you move away from the specifics of HL and consider the implications of a a ruling in their favor it becomes more problematic. HL will cover other forms of BC but another company may decline to do so at all. JW owners could refuse to cover blood transfusions, Scientologist owners could refuse to cover psychological treatment and psychiatric medications. Furthermore considering that insurance coverage thru an employer is basically a benefit in lieu of wages, I don't see how it can be argued that your employer gets to decide how you get to spend your money based on its moral beliefs (especially since that's essentially the objection HL has, that the government is imposing morality on how HL spends its money...hypocrisy, much?).

All that said, I'm handicapping that HL prevails 5-4.

I agree, especially with the quoted sections and I actually think this could be a good thing.

If I am a religious believer in only using herbs and homeopathy then I can pick a plan that only covers that. And based on the low pricing of such a plan most corporations would be completely honest in saying that such a plan aligns with their sincerely held religious beliefs, as a corporation.

And while this is bad for those employees, bad for the ACA, and bad for our current healthcare system, I think it is good for the future of our healthcare system. It could be the push we need to recognize that healthcare should not be an employment issue. We need to move away from employer based healthcare and this could be an early step in doing so.

So, I hope HL loses, but if they win it could have a very large silver lining.
 
One wonders why they didn't have such deep moral objections to the same contraception coverage their insurance offered to employees prior to ACA ...
 
One wonders why they didn't have such deep moral objections to the same contraception coverage their insurance offered to employees prior to ACA ...

I've not been paying very close attention to this story. Did Hobby Lobby have contraception coverage in their employee health insurance policy prior to the ACA?
 
I've not been paying very close attention to this story. Did Hobby Lobby have contraception coverage in their employee health insurance policy prior to the ACA?

Yes, it did and I'll find the links that show it but I'll have to dig around a bit in the history of a comp I don't have access to ATM for the articles about it I was reading.
 
Yes, it did and I'll find the links that show it but I'll have to dig around a bit in the history of a comp I don't have access to ATM for the articles about it I was reading.

This makes sense to me because in other threads, it has been posted that it costs insurance companies less to offer birth control, than to exclude it. Since HL is likely subsidizing the insurance, it would cost them more to exclude birth control.
 
Off the top of my head, that sounds like a reduction in benefits/compensation that disproportionately effects some employees on the basis of their religious beliefs (or lack thereof).

No, Upchurch. All employees are treated the same, none of them get the benefit. The fact that some want the benefit and others do not doesn't make their treatment any different. And that's always going to be the case: if a company does not offer a vision plan, are people with bad eyesight having their rights trampled upon? No, they are not.

That is, those employees who need/want those medical benefits must now pay for them out of pocket, whereas those employees who, because of their faith, do not want those benefits don't. It creates a difference in employment conditions based on religion.

No, Upchurch. There are many reasons besides religion for why an employee might not want to buy insurance coverage for every form of birth control. They might be a woman past menopause, for example. Or they might be a man who's content to only use condoms for birth control, or a married couple which only wants to use the pill (coverage which Hobby Lobby is not objecting to).

But none of those, NONE of those, creates a difference in employment conditions. Everyone is treated the same. Certain employees who might want a certain benefit might not get it from the employer while other employees don't want that thing at all, but so what? That's always the case, because people want different things regardless of religion.

If someone's religious beliefs prohibited them from getting corrective lenses, it would be absurd to claim that a company which did not offer a vision plan was discriminating in his favor and against those employees who did want corrective lenses, and therefore trampling on their rights, as Magyar claimed. But that's essentially what you're arguing here.
 

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