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Merged Ukraine erupts in riots and general strike.

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He might, eventually, find himself fighting terrorists on two fronts. And if those fighters manage to start cooperating on operations...

Yes, but this is the least of his concerns. He is too well protected for terrorists to endanger him personally, but attacks against civilians are useful for him to rally popular support behind him and justify excessive use of force in resistive areas.
It's not like there will be any investment in Russia to discourage.

Innocent deaths are only relevant if you actually care about either.

McHrozni
 
And Putin;s move is going to raise still more red flags with Western Investors when it comes to putting their money into Russia;Maybe Putin will decide to "Punish" the West by seizure of assets.
The worst blowback to Putin might well come not form offical sanctions, but from Western Investors deciding that Russia is someplace they do not want to put their money.

Perhaps western investment in Russia will decrease, but it is already clear that Russia is going to begin to shift its economic dependence to china. However, bad or good that is.
 
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Perhaps western investment in Russia will decrease, but it is already clear that Russia is going to begin to shift its economic dependence to china. However, bad or good that is.

Russia has nothing to offer to China but natural resources. This contrast heavily with the West, where Russia has cheap, abundant and well trained labor as well. If Putin think he can save Russia economically by bending the knee to China, he's in for a rude surprise and a shaft.

McHrozni
 
Russia has nothing to offer to China but natural resources. This contrast heavily with the West, where Russia has cheap, abundant and well trained labor as well. If Putin think he can save Russia economically by bending the knee to China, he's in for a rude surprise and a shaft.

McHrozni

And natural resources are what China wants.
 
And natural resources are what China wants.

Reading comprahension: F-

If all you want is a few dollars it matters very little who you are engaged with. That will not make your country neither strong nor successful. It's not as if we're devoid of recent examples, approximately ten years ago Venezuela made the exact same choice as Putin did last week: ignore foreign (and domestic) investment and concentrate on exporting raw materials. The results were correctly predicted, and the country is on the path to become a failed state. There is no reason to expect history will be much kinder to Russia.

McHrozni
 
Perhaps western investment in Russia will decrease, but it is already clear that Russia is going to begin to shift its economic dependence to china. However, bad or good that is.

I'm sure that relationship will be a spectacular success. Disconnecting from the Western economies (the greatest innovative and wealth producing machine in the history of the world) is a tremendous idea.
 
Another Jew liar stands in the way of the New ("anti-imperialist") World Order.

WARSAW – Russian President Vladimir Putin is behaving like a Mafia boss. In invading, occupying, and finally annexing Crimea, he pointed Russia’s guns at Ukraine and said: your territorial sovereignty or your life. So far, extortion has worked – and Putin knows it.
Indeed, in his speech announcing the annexation of Crimea, Putin spoke his mind: his regime fears no punishment and will do whatever it pleases. Crimea is just the first step toward realizing his dream of revived Russian greatness.
 
On what legal basis did Russia assume the permanent seat on the UN Security Council of the defunct USSR was there any? and if not can Russia be stripped of it?

It is clearly an aggressor nation and rogue state.
 
I'm sure that relationship will be a spectacular success. Disconnecting from the Western economies (the greatest innovative and wealth producing machine in the history of the world) is a tremendous idea.

And others haven't learned from this success? If you think the world's been hiding under a rock and not learning from previous failures your dead wrong. There is an aggressive thirst for most parts of the world to be superior to the west.

The funny thing is, for all the terrible things said about Russia, Russia has been integral to the advancement of the west: periodic table, manned space flight, satellites, etc. There is no reason to suspect that this progress will stop.

Russia will only realign and decrease dependency on the west. Which is smart if they have aggressive European ambitions. Having an economy tied to hostiles is a stupid idea.
 
Reading comprahension: F-

If all you want is a few dollars it matters very little who you are engaged with. That will not make your country neither strong nor successful. It's not as if we're devoid of recent examples, approximately ten years ago Venezuela made the exact same choice as Putin did last week: ignore foreign (and domestic) investment and concentrate on exporting raw materials. The results were correctly predicted, and the country is on the path to become a failed state. There is no reason to expect history will be much kinder to Russia.

McHrozni

Russia and Venezuela are two vastly different examples. Although the particular situation you are using is comparable, the two governments aren't. The Russians are vastly more competent than Venezuela. They are oppressive, corrupt, and stubborn, but they are competent. More than I can say for Venezuela.

Russia has been one of the world's great powers for the past 500 years. If Russia knows how to do one thing, it's coming back. Economic realignment with none hostile powers is Russia's best chance to insulate its economic from aggressive sanctions from the west. The last thing Russia wants is for what happened to it during Soviet times, to happen to it again right now.

A western dependent economy is an unhealthy thing for Russia based on historical precedent. China are a bunch of greedy and power hungry bureaucrats, but they want the same Russia wants. More power than the west.
 
On what legal basis did Russia assume the permanent seat on the UN Security Council of the defunct USSR was there any? and if not can Russia be stripped of it?

It is clearly an aggressor nation and rogue state.

Not without completely ridding of the United Nations and making an entirely new set of treaties. Russia assumed the role of the USSR, which other countries rightfully acknowledged. You would have a tough time getting this idea past the Chinese. Who are also security council members.
 
On what legal basis did Russia assume the permanent seat on the UN Security Council of the defunct USSR was there any? and if not can Russia be stripped of it?
No. They happen to be charter members of that club.
It is clearly an aggressor nation and rogue state.
Really?
I am living in such a wierd world right now!
Bill Kristol is right about something (Some people obviously do only need some rallying to go rah rah rah for the next war)

And I find myself agreeing with Kissinger.
Life's a funny old dog, isn't it? :D
 
I am living in such a wierd world right now!
Bill Kristol is right about something (Some people obviously do only need some rallying to go rah rah rah for the next war)

And I find myself agreeing with Kissinger.

What's so wierd about you agreeing with Henry Kissinger?
 
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Russia and Venezuela are two vastly different examples. Although the particular situation you are using is comparable, the two governments aren't. The Russians are vastly more competent than Venezuela. They are oppressive, corrupt, and stubborn, but they are competent. More than I can say for Venezuela.

I'll give you half a point, Russians aren't Venezuelans, and it could well be the situation won't become as dire in Russia as easily. The notion they're "vastly different examples" is false, they're quite similar, but Venezuela got worse much more quickly than Russia.

Russia has been one of the world's great powers for the past 500 years. If Russia knows how to do one thing, it's coming back.

Being a world power 500 years ago, or 200 years ago, was a vastly different issue than being one now. What Putin is doing is exactly the opposite of what he should be doing if he wanted Russia to be a great power. I assure you that ownership of an impovrished peninsula with no access to power and potable water will not accomplish that.

Economic realignment with none hostile powers is Russia's best chance to insulate its economic from aggressive sanctions from the west.

That strategy really worked wonders in North Korea. In an ironic twist, you're right, but not in the way you think you are. They're immune to sanctions, because there's nothing one could sanction in the first place.

I fail to see how this would help Russia in any way. If you're trying to say Putin can hold on to Crimea hell or high water, you're right, but that's as far as he can go. He lost Ukraine, he lost Georgia, he probably lost Stans, and he may be loosing Belarus as a result. He could invade all those countries, but he could never hold them - and occupation would be far more costly than all possible gain from them.

McHrozni
 
Being a world power 500 years ago, or 200 years ago, was a vastly different issue than being one now. What Putin is doing is exactly the opposite of what he should be doing if he wanted Russia to be a great power. I assure you that ownership of an impovrished peninsula with no access to power and potable water will not accomplish that.

The point being that Russia has a tendency to undergo rapid transformation in order to stay relevant. However backward we may feel that Russia is at the time. They manage to return to relevancy quite nicely.

That strategy really worked wonders in North Korea. In an ironic twist, you're right, but not in the way you think you are. They're immune to sanctions, because there's nothing one could sanction in the first place.

Russia's economy isn't tidally locked to one political entity. And the strategy is not total dependence on China (I apologize for saying this earlier), but increased economic activity in Asia. Asia's economy is the future of the world's economy. They are the consumers and political juggernauts of the future.

I fail to see how this would help Russia in any way. If you're trying to say Putin can hold on to Crimea hell or high water, you're right, but that's as far as he can go. He lost Ukraine, he lost Georgia, he probably lost Stans, and he may be loosing Belarus as a result. He could invade all those countries, but he could never hold them - and occupation would be far more costly than all possible gain from them.

The highlighted is a gross exaggeration. The stans are firmly under Russia's control and are entering into Russia's Customs Union by the end of the year. Russia has nearly 9 of the 12 non-Baltic FSU nations under their belt. The issue was always more or less Georgia, Ukraine, and Moldova.

Belarus is firmly in support of Moscow. I don't even know how you bring this allegation up. There is absolutely no evidence to back this claim.
 
No, an expansionist regime made sure it happened. "Non-interventionism" (which was called "appeasement" back then) did not help prevent war. Hence my saying it didn't work.



This sounds like you're saying US and UK bankers started WWII. Without getting much too off topic, is this really what you just said?



No, you are proposing appeasement. You see, either you can ignore the thing altogether, which is isolationist, or you can appease by keeping up trade etc.



But what about all the people who don't want huge swaths of territory that they have spent millions in tax money to build up just picks up and leaves to another country? What about the population in the affected areas that don't want to join Russia? Should't these people have a say? What about the people who have relatives outside the affected areas, or people living on the border of a region that suddenly determines it wants to be a part of Russia?

Do you understand the need for rules governing this kind of thing? We call those rules "international laws". The "referendum" in Crimea is in violation of international law, as well as the Ukrainian constitution. Russia is in violation of international law when it occupies territory belonging to another nation. A tu-quoqe isn't going to be enough to hand-wave all this away.

This is laughable, did the people of Kiev consider Eastern Ukraine when they overthrew Yanukovych? Did they consider Crimea?

Sure enough, the Crimean referendum was a violation of International law and Ukrainian constitution. However...the Ukrainian constitution had already been violated by the mob when they removed Yanukovych from power so therefore it can be considered null and void. You cannot pick and choose aspects of a constitution to adhere too.
 
Because the current ethnic tensions that showed up shortly after Putin's buddy was removed by his own Parliament are indicative of how the Ukraine has functioned for the last 23 years as an independent nation?




Those borders have been accepted for over 100 years, by all parties, including Russia. They have a better "historical basis" then say the present borders of Poland, Germany and this completely artificial Russian province of Kalingrad. There are very few if any states on this planet that are drawn on 100% ethnic lines! or even historical ones.



These places have been Ukrainian for about 100 years.




Except that the border has been in its present form since the reincorporation of the Ukraine into the USSR and the borders were guaranteed in their present form in a 1994 treaty signed by Russia.

Let us have a look at the history of some of the major cities in eastern and southern Ukraine.

Kharkov - founded in 1654 by soldiers sent from Moscow, on uninhabited land known as the "dikoe pole", or "wild field". Some of the settlers were Ukrainians from west of the Dnepr, who were fleeing the fighting there. From its foundation, Kharkov always was part of Muscovy, and then the Russian Empire.

Odessa - founded in 1792 by order of the Russian Empress Catherine II, on territory conquered from the Ottoman Empire. The earliest settlers were Moldavians, who became russified. No Ukrainians had ever lived in the area where Odessa was founded, or indeed anywhere else on the Black Sea coast. Thus Odessa was from the very beginning a Russian foundation, not a Ukrainian one.

Sevastopol - founded in 1783 by order of the Russian Empress Catherine II, on the territory of the annexed Crimean Khanate, a vassal state of the Ottoman Empire. The indigenous people were Crimean Tatars; no Ukrainians had ever lived there. Thus Sevastopol was from its very beginning a Russian foundation, not a Ukrainian one.

Dnipropetrovsk - first founded in 1635 as the Polish fortress of Kodak, built in the "dikoe pole", on the border between Polish territory and that of the Crimean Khanate. The first settlers were Ukrainian Cossacks, placed there by the Polish Government as border guards. thus, the town was originally Ukrainian although not part of Ukrainian ancestral territory, since the indigenous inhabitants were nomadic Kipchaks. The territory around Kodak was ceded by Poland to Muscovy in 1654 under the Treaty of Pereiaslav, and in the 1760s a Zaporozhian Cossack village called Polovytsia was established. The modern city was founded in 1776 by Prince Grigorii Potemkin, the governor of New Russia, the territory newly conquered from the Ottoman Empire, and was moved to its present location near Polovytsia in 1783.

Thus, this city was originally a Polish-Ukrainian foundation, but became Russian, due to the settlement of large numbers of Russian colonists in the 19th Century.

Donetsk - founded in 1869 by the Welsh businessman John Hughes, who built a steel plant and several coal mines in the area. It is situated in the steppe region, which at the time was largely uninhabited; no Ukrainians had ever lived in that region throughout history. The population consists mainly of Russian colonists from the north, who settled the area in the late 19th and early 20th Centuries. Thus Donetsk was from its foundation a Russian city and has never been ethnically or historically Ukrainian.

Lugansk - founded in 1795 by the British industrialist Charles Gascoigne, who built a metal factory there. Like Donestsk it was situated on largely uninhabited steppe land, and was settled by Russians coming from the north. Thus, Lugansk. like Donetsk, was from its foundation a Russian city, and has never been ethnically or historically Ukrainian.

Donetsk and Lugansk are ethnically and historically the least Ukrainian and most Russian cities in the polity called "Ukraine".

The above cities may be compared with Kiev, an ancient city that has been Ruthenian or Ukrainian since the 9th Century, and Lviv, situated in the ancestral heartland of the Ukrainian people, founded in 1240 by King Daniel of Halych, a Ruthenian prince of the Rurikid Dynasty. Thus, both Kiev and Lviv have been ethnically and historically Ukrainian since the very beginning of their recorded history.

If the present Ukraine were to be divided, with some areas going to Russia and the remainder continuing to exist as an independent state of the Ukrainian people, then Odessa, Sevastopol, Donetsk and Lugansk should certainly go to Russia. Kharkov and Dnepropetrovsk might go to Russia or remain with Ukraine, depending on the wishes of their inhabitants; either way, their future would be as border cities, on a new Russian-Ukrainian frontier corresponding to ethnic and historical realities.

Except that the border has been in its present form since the reincorporation of the Ukraine into the USSR and the borders were guaranteed in their present form in a 1994 treaty signed by Russia.

The present issue is the "territorial integrity" of Ukraine, and I see no reason why that should be regarded as sacrosanct. There have been many cases in modern history of states being compelled to surrender part of their territory, eg Serbia was compelled by NATO to surrender Kosovo. And decades before that Britain allowed Ireland to break away.

The provinces of Donetsk and Lugansk in particular are historically and ethnically Russian; there is no ethnic or historical reason for their remaining part of Ukraine rather than being transferred to Russia.

If the new rulers of Ukraine, who seized power by violence, are wise, they will allow the parts of Ukraine that are not ethnically or historically Ukrainian to secede peacefully, if that is what the populations of those parts want, and rest content with ruling over the historical heartland of the Ukrainian people, the region west of the Dnepr.

The problem is that the new rulers of Ukraine are not wise; they are nationalist extremists, motivated by a 19th Century ideology of hatred for the "Muscovites".
 
You cannot pick and choose aspects of a constitution to adhere too.

For whatever reason the opposition neglects this part of the argument. Even if the process were symbolically followed, that still would've been a lot better than what they did.
 
Let us have a look at the history of some of the major cities in eastern and southern Ukraine.

Kharkov - founded in 1654 by soldiers sent from Moscow, on uninhabited land known as the "dikoe pole", or "wild field". Some of the settlers were Ukrainians from west of the Dnepr, who were fleeing the fighting there. From its foundation, Kharkov always was part of Muscovy, and then the Russian Empire.

Odessa - founded in 1792 by order of the Russian Empress Catherine II, on territory conquered from the Ottoman Empire. The earliest settlers were Moldavians, who became russified. No Ukrainians had ever lived in the area where Odessa was founded, or indeed anywhere else on the Black Sea coast. Thus Odessa was from the very beginning a Russian foundation, not a Ukrainian one.

Sevastopol - founded in 1783 by order of the Russian Empress Catherine II, on the territory of the annexed Crimean Khanate, a vassal state of the Ottoman Empire. The indigenous people were Crimean Tatars; no Ukrainians had ever lived there. Thus Sevastopol was from its very beginning a Russian foundation, not a Ukrainian one.

Dnipropetrovsk - first founded in 1635 as the Polish fortress of Kodak, built in the "dikoe pole", on the border between Polish territory and that of the Crimean Khanate. The first settlers were Ukrainian Cossacks, placed there by the Polish Government as border guards. thus, the town was originally Ukrainian although not part of Ukrainian ancestral territory, since the indigenous inhabitants were nomadic Kipchaks. The territory around Kodak was ceded by Poland to Muscovy in 1654 under the Treaty of Pereiaslav, and in the 1760s a Zaporozhian Cossack village called Polovytsia was established. The modern city was founded in 1776 by Prince Grigorii Potemkin, the governor of New Russia, the territory newly conquered from the Ottoman Empire, and was moved to its present location near Polovytsia in 1783.

Thus, this city was originally a Polish-Ukrainian foundation, but became Russian, due to the settlement of large numbers of Russian colonists in the 19th Century.

Donetsk - founded in 1869 by the Welsh businessman John Hughes, who built a steel plant and several coal mines in the area. It is situated in the steppe region, which at the time was largely uninhabited; no Ukrainians had ever lived in that region throughout history. The population consists mainly of Russian colonists from the north, who settled the area in the late 19th and early 20th Centuries. Thus Donetsk was from its foundation a Russian city and has never been ethnically or historically Ukrainian.

Lugansk - founded in 1795 by the British industrialist Charles Gascoigne, who built a metal factory there. Like Donestsk it was situated on largely uninhabited steppe land, and was settled by Russians coming from the north. Thus, Lugansk. like Donetsk, was from its foundation a Russian city, and has never been ethnically or historically Ukrainian.

Donetsk and Lugansk are ethnically and historically the least Ukrainian and most Russian cities in the polity called "Ukraine".

The above cities may be compared with Kiev, an ancient city that has been Ruthenian or Ukrainian since the 9th Century, and Lviv, situated in the ancestral heartland of the Ukrainian people, founded in 1240 by King Daniel of Halych, a Ruthenian prince of the Rurikid Dynasty. Thus, both Kiev and Lviv have been ethnically and historically Ukrainian since the very beginning of their recorded history.

If the present Ukraine were to be divided, with some areas going to Russia and the remainder continuing to exist as an independent state of the Ukrainian people, then Odessa, Sevastopol, Donetsk and Lugansk should certainly go to Russia. Kharkov and Dnepropetrovsk might go to Russia or remain with Ukraine, depending on the wishes of their inhabitants; either way, their future would be as border cities, on a new Russian-Ukrainian frontier corresponding to ethnic and historical realities.



The present issue is the "territorial integrity" of Ukraine, and I see no reason why that should be regarded as sacrosanct. There have been many cases in modern history of states being compelled to surrender part of their territory, eg Serbia was compelled by NATO to surrender Kosovo. And decades before that Britain allowed Ireland to break away.

The provinces of Donetsk and Lugansk in particular are historically and ethnically Russian; there is no ethnic or historical reason for their remaining part of Ukraine rather than being transferred to Russia.

If the new rulers of Ukraine, who seized power by violence, are wise, they will allow the parts of Ukraine that are not ethnically or historically Ukrainian to secede peacefully, if that is what the populations of those parts want, and rest content with ruling over the historical heartland of the Ukrainian people, the region west of the Dnepr.

The problem is that the new rulers of Ukraine are not wise; they are nationalist extremists, motivated by a 19th Century ideology of hatred for the "Muscovites".

By all means, let's carve up all countries by ethnic, even religious lines. Maybe we could erect really tall walls to ensure they don't intermingle. Maybe we should start by kicking the ruling Alawites out of most of Syria and give them a tiny slice. :rolleyes:
 
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