I am not a “HJ believer”. I am inclined to believe that Jesus lived in Galilee in the beginning of the First Century and was crucified by the Romans. Don’t you catch the difference?
What I meant (and what the words actually said), was that you believe in a historical Jesus. That’s correct isn’t it? You have been saying that you think he was a real figure, haven’t you?
In saying you are a "HJ believer" I am just making the distinction between those here who, like you, do believe that Jesus was a real figure. Versus some of us here who think there is insufficient reliable evidence to come to any such positive or “probable” view.
My argument is done. I am tired to repeat it again and again. But I am going to schematize it for politeness:
1. Paul affirms that his gospel comes from the Bible and revelation .
2. Paul gives some details of the appearances of Jesus (when and who).
3. He explicitly excludes the Bible as the source of these details.
4. It is very unlikely these details come from revelation (ecstatic?).
5. It is very likely that the appearances come from another source.
6. The appearances subject was a weapon of power in the Early Christianity.
7. Paul had an important reason to highlight the direct sources of his gospel and dismissed the actual human sources. That is to say, he pretended the rank of "apostle".
8. First conclusion: Paul had more natural sources that those he would like to admit.
9. The appearances and the crucifixion matters were connected by force.
10. Second conclusion: Paul got some accounts about the crucifixion from human telling.
OK, well I don’t want to spend much (if any) time debating a list of claims like that, but first of all -
- what you are trying to do with a list such as that, is simply trying to
” read between the lines" of what Paul’s letters actually do say (and say very clearly, explicitly, and unarguably), to make a complete guess saying you think that Paul really meant the total and complete opposite of what he actually said.
You are guessing about that. Why are you guessing?
We do not need to guess. Because Paul's letters are very,
very, clear on his source of Jesus belief. And as a matter of fact, we have it as actual undeniable ancient physical Papyrus script in P46 dated to around c.200AD. That's physical 2000 year old evidence of what those words really do say ... it's not a mere guess!
However, even apart from that - I don’t think the above 1-10 items help you anyway. For example (without spending even more excess time on this), re 2 to 7 in your list - what details do Paul’s letters give about the
"appearance" of Jesus? And where do his letters say this did not come from his religious beliefs (i.e. visions and scripture etc.)?
OK, so apart from the various quotes already given so many times, which unarguably show that Paul absolutely insists that his knowledge of Jesus came from no man, and just to briefly summarise that from memory, we have Paul writing to say -
came
“from no man”
was
“not of human origin”
by him
“consulting no man”
and
“nor was I taught it”
but that he got it because -
“God was pleased to reveal his Son in me”
that Jesus was -
“crucified, buried and rose on the third day”
all
“according to scripture”
and because it
“is written”
... and where even Paul’s brief mention of a last supper, which IIRC is just about the only other information he actually gives about Jesus, was said to come to him directly
“Personally from the Lord himself” (see the final quoted passage below from Corinthians) ….
…. And even Apart from all of that, all of which is absolutely unmistakeable and unarguable (and NOT guesswork!), below from Galatians-2 is something again directly and even more explicitly declaring that he definitely did not get his beliefs about Jesus from that Jerusalem group .. and it is hard to imagine any statement clearer or more definite than this, as follows below from Galatians 2 -
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians 2&version=NIV
Galatians 2
New International Version (NIV)
Paul Accepted by the Apostles,
Then after fourteen years, I went up again to Jerusalem this time with Barnabas. I took Titus along also. 2 I went in response to a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain. 3 Yet not even Titus, who was with me, was compelled to be circumcised, even though he was a Greek. 4 This matter arose because some false believers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves. 5 We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you.
6 As for those who were held in high esteem—whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not show favouritism — they added nothing to my message. 7 On the contrary, they recognized that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the uncircumcised,[a] just as Peter had been to the circumcised. 8 For God, who was at work in Peter as an apostle to the circumcised, was also at work in me as an apostle to the Gentiles. 9 James, Cephas[c] and John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised. 10 All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I had been eager to do all along.
The above is Paul’s account of that 2nd trip to Jerusalem. The first trip, which Paul said occurred three years after his vision, only says the following -
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal.+1:13-24&version=ESV
Galatians 1:13-24
English Standard Version (ESV)
18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and remained with him fifteen days. 19 But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord's brother. 20 (In what I am writing to you, before God, I do not lie!) 21 Then I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia. 22 And I was still unknown in person to the churches of Judea that are in Christ. 23 They only were hearing it said, “He who used to persecute us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy.” 24 And they glorified God because of me.
That’s all that Paul says about that first mission to Jerusalem. That is supposed to have taken place circa.38AD. And clearly there is absolutely nothing there to indicate that Paul needed to be told anything, or was told anything, that he did not already know and had not already been preaching for the past three years about Jesus.
And that is apart from the fact that both the above passages come from Paul writing Galatians, supposedly written circa 55AD-60AD. So he is writing both those passages, about both his 1st and 2nd Jerusalem missions, around 20 years after his vision and supposedly 20 years after he been all over the place preaching that Jesus was executed and rose from the dead. And where, as is unmistakeably shown above, he writes about that very specifically saying that those people in Jerusalem certainly did not tell him anything he did not already know and was not all already preaching about Jesus.
And finally, Paul’s mention of the last supper, which he again insists came to him from no man, but instead directly and “Personally from the Lord himself” -
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+11:22-25&version=PHILLIPS
1 Corinthians 11:23-25
23-25 The teaching I gave you was given me personally by the Lord himself, and it was this: the Lord Jesus, in the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread and when he had given thanks he broke it and said, “Take, eat, this is my body which is being broken for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” Similarly when supper was ended, he took the cup saying, “This cup is the new agreement in my blood: do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.
