Merged Global Warming Discussion II: Heated Conversation

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The elephant in the room....geoengineering..

Climate engineering: Minor potential, major risk of side-effects?
Date:
February 25, 2014
Source:
Helmholtz Centre for Ocean Research Kiel (GEOMAR)
Summary:
Researchers have studied with computer simulations the long-term global consequences of several 'climate engineering' methods. They show that all the proposed methods would either be unable to significantly reduce global warming if CO2 emissions remain high, or they could not be stopped without causing dangerous climate disruption.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/02/140225122519.htm

Do we tinker more than we already have with the climate??? :boggled:
 
Nope, nothing in there about climate models predicting the colder winters. ....
The evidence that climate models + science! predict a trend of colder winters (posted 24th February 2014).
...
"For example, a climate model can tell you it will be cold in winter, but it can’t tell you what the temperature will be on a specific day – that’s weather forecasting."
...
"In a more recent press-release, Vladimir Petoukhov and Vladimir Semenov, argue that Global Warming could cool down winter temperatures over Europe, and a reduced sea-ice extent could increase the chance of getting cold winters." and they based that on their climate model
(my addition for those too lazy to click on links :D)
 
Following links provided :

The recent overall Northern Hemisphere warming was accompanied by several severe northern continental winters, as for example, extremely cold winter 2005–2006 in Europe and northern Asia. Here we show that anomalous decrease of wintertime sea ice concentration in the Barents-Kara (B-K) seas could bring about extreme cold events like winter 2005–2006. Our simulations with the ECHAM5 general circulation model demonstrate that lower-troposphere heating over the B-K seas in the Eastern Arctic caused by the sea ice reduction may result in strong anticyclonic anomaly over the Polar Ocean and anomalous easterly advection over northern continents. This causes a continental-scale winter cooling reaching −1.5°C, with more than 3 times increased probability of cold winter extremes over large areas including Europe. Our results imply that several recent severe winters do not conflict the global warming picture but rather supplement it, being in qualitative agreement with the simulated large-scale atmospheric circulation realignment. Furthermore, our results suggest that high-latitude atmospheric circulation response to the B-K sea ice decrease is highly nonlinear and characterized by transition from anomalous cyclonic circulation to anticyclonic one and then back again to cyclonic type of circulation as the B-K sea ice concentration gradually reduces from 100% to ice free conditions. We present a conceptual model that may explain the nonlinear local atmospheric response in the B-K seas region by counter play between convection over the surface heat source and baroclinic effect due to modified temperature gradients in the vicinity of the heating area.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2009JD013568/abstract

My bold, obviously. Models suggesting an increased probability of cold winter events over parts of the Northern Hemisphere due to loss of Arctic sea-ice, which as we all know is due to the enhanced greenhouse effect caused by humanity's industrious activity.

Of course, cold in one part of the Northern Hemisphere is accompanied by warmth in others, since Nature abhorrs a vacuum. This year, for instance, it's been very warm in Alaska and, I believe, Greenland, certainly Svalbard. Western Europe has been remarkably warm, I can vouch for that. So to speak of "cold winters" hemispherically is vague at best, and globally is meaningless. Cold events locally are just weather; their frequency is climate. If the frequency increases that's climate change.

All these cold events will occur against the backdrop of AGW, of course, so new records will be few and far between (though no doubt some blog has a handy list available). Warm records, on the other hand, will become increasingly commonplace. For details see the graphs Trakar provided above.
 
The evidence that climate models + science! predict a trend of colder winters (posted 24th February 2014).
"In a more recent press-release, Vladimir Petoukhov and Vladimir Semenov, argue that Global Warming could cool down winter temperatures over Europe, and a reduced sea-ice extent could increase the chance of getting cold winters." and they based that on their climate model
(my addition for those too lazy to click on links :D)

Your desperation is obvious. Just quote the part that supports your false claim. Quit playing dumb, and show us the evidence. It's not hard, when you actually have a source, a reason for your claim.

You have none, that is obvious. And what you did find, I'm sure after a long search, actually supports what I have been saying for a year now. Is that why you won't simply link to the paper. You know, the one paper that you think might support your claim.
 
It's entirely possible, of course, that we won't see an increased frequency of winter cold events due to Arctic sea-ice reduction. It's a subject of much debate and research but there's not enough data available to check against. Reduction only got going seriously in 2005, and 2007 was when it really shifted up. Regional winter experiences since then are of no real significance.

This is not like the prediction that an enhanced greenhouse would cause global warming, which has been confirmed by decades of observations. And it's not over yet, obviously.
 
It's entirely possible, of course, that we won't see an increased frequency of winter cold events due to Arctic sea-ice reduction.
Anything is possible. If you claim global warming might make it colder, or it might make it warmer, you pretty much can't go wrong.

Or "it might be warmer some places, but colder other places", that is also some good science there.

Or maybe "there will be more extreme weather", or "more heat means more chaos", that kind of science is really good, it is impossible to ever be wrong.
 
My bold, obviously. Models suggesting an increased probability of cold winter events over parts of the Northern Hemisphere due to loss of Arctic sea-ice, which as we all know is due to the enhanced greenhouse effect caused by humanity's industrious activity.

Oh there is no doubt at all that after the fact, many researchers are trying to build and adjust climate models to try and both explain the colder winters, as well as predict what will happen.

That isn't the claim that was made.

If you are honest, it's not hard to state what has happened, and is happening.

Climate models did not predict colder winters, but in fact the greatest warming was expected in winter, in high latitudes, and in the arctic.

They were wrong, however the other factors involved may also be the reason, as many ideas are being exchanged to explain the cooling that the SST data shows, the surface stations show, the ocean readings show, and satellite measurements of the troposphere clearly show.

That is another issue.

Since the colder winter trend has become undeniable, models are being used and ideas flung about to explain it, and also claim causation from global warming. Which is hilarious since there isn't actually any warming to blame it on for over a decade.

be that as it may, climate models did not predict what happened.

What we are seeing, and is slowly being introduced here, is that currently new models are being used to predict colder winters, but only by the mechanism of global warming. These are not the climate models that predicted the warmer winters, obviously.

But it is an after the fact effort, since somebody has to explain why it's gotten so much colder in the NH in winter.

It's truly shameless that somebody is already trying to claim "this was predicted all along", by the same climate models that predicted warming in winters.

It's a really big lie. Good luck with it.
 
Anything is possible. If you claim global warming might make it colder, or it might make it warmer, you pretty much can't go wrong.

Or "it might be warmer some places, but colder other places", that is also some good science there.

Or maybe "there will be more extreme weather", or "more heat means more chaos", that kind of science is really good, it is impossible to ever be wrong.

If you make up strawmen, you can easily debunk them. Models only work at large scales, due to the limitations of technology. Stamping your foot and demanding specific predictions for every location till you get blue in the face isn't going to really achieve anything.
 
Oh there is no doubt at all that after the fact, many researchers are trying to build and adjust climate models to try and both explain the colder winters, as well as predict what will happen.
Northern Hemisphere winters have not been particularly cold for a long time, so what exactly is "colder winters" referring to?

If you mean winters in the contiguous US you're referring to weather events, and climate models cannot be expected to predict weather events. Climate and weather are not the same thing.

If you don't mean that, please elucidate.

That isn't the claim that was made.
The claim that was made, as I recall, was that climate models haven't predicted these weather events. That is true, but they wouldn't be expected to. What they can predict are changes in frequencies of certain weather events, such as polar air incursions over the US during boreal winter. That, presumably, is the claim you're demanding be backed up.

As you now know, researchers in 2009 and 2010 used climate modelling to examine what might be expected to happen as Arctic sea-ic retreated, and concluded that this might lead to an increase in frequency of cold weather events in some regions during boreal winter, due to polar air incursions. Which substantiates the fact that climate models have indeed been used to predict this change - correctly or not we don't yet know. A few cold snaps over parts of the contiguous US are hardly sufficient evidence on which to judge.

If you are honest, it's not hard to state what has happened, and is happening.
Some people find it hard. Articuacy varies.

Climate models did not predict colder winters, but in fact the greatest warming was expected in winter, in high latitudes, and in the arctic.
In winter and in the Arctic, which is what we've experienced. Also at night, which again has been confirmed.

They were wrong, however the other factors involved may also be the reason, as many ideas are being exchanged to explain the cooling that the SST data shows, the surface stations show, the ocean readings show, and satellite measurements of the troposphere clearly show.
The SST data does not show that at all. There is no Arctic cooling - far from it - winters have warmed faster than summers, and nights have warmed faster than days. There are decades of data to demonstrate that.

That is another issue.
It's not a thing at all.

Since the colder winter trend has become undeniable ...
It was never even tenable.

... models are being used and ideas flung about to explain it, and also claim causation from global warming. Which is hilarious since there isn't actually any warming to blame it on for over a decade.
There has been continuous global warming since the mid-70's, and that naturally includes the last decade.

There have been more polar incursions in the last few years compared to the previous 15 or so, when there were very few. Researchers are using models as tools to investigate whether some mechanism might be causing that. If one exists, understanding it will aid in predicting the regional impact of the warming which is yet to come, but apart from the practical benefits there's the desire to know and understand. It may be a chance cluster, we may see no more of them for another decade, or we may see them every few years or more. Apart from waiting to find out, modelling is the only practical means to investigate.

A leading contender for such a mechanism is the reduction of Arctic summer sea-ice extent, via changes to the vertical air-transport profile and thus to cyclonic and anti-cyclonic patterns. This reduction is undeniable, whatever one might believe about there being no warming going on while it's happened. Opinions are mixed on the mechanism, and even on the need to explain anything anyway.



be that as it may, climate models did not predict what happened.
Actually the first suggestions that this might happen came from modelling work done before the recent cluster of polar incursions. So technically they did. But in truth global climate models don't predict this detail. They provide the general picture from which regional models can work on that detail.

What we are seeing, and is slowly being introduced here, is that currently new models are being used to predict colder winters, but only by the mechanism of global warming. These are not the climate models that predicted the warmer winters, obviously.
To a great extent they are, and why not? Winters are getting warmer in both hemishperes.

But it is an after the fact effort, since somebody has to explain why it's gotten so much colder in the NH in winter.
Actually nobody does. It's not a thing.

It's truly shameless that somebody is already trying to claim "this was predicted all along", by the same climate models that predicted warming in winters.
It was suggested by some modelling work done on the Artic region, with particular reference to the meteorological effects of reduced summer sea-ice. Global models wouldn't be expected to predict such detail, but they did, of course, predict the warmer winters we've experienced. That's part of the big picture.

It's a really big lie. Good luck with it.
It is, in fact, true that some modelling suggested an increase in frequency of polar incursions before this recent cluster began. It didn't convince many people, and still hasn't, but there it is.
 
If you make up strawmen, you can easily debunk them. Models only work at large scales, due to the limitations of technology.
Ultimately, limited by its digital nature. Only the big bad analogue model is precisely correct at every point.

That said, climate models have done remarkably well in their short existence. Modelling of bulk ice in all its varieties, not nearly so much, but the problem is inherently much more difficult. Ice people will be much better at it by the time it's pretty much all gone.
 
Your desperation is obvious. Just quote the part that supports your false claim. Quit playing dumb, and show us the evidence. It's not hard, when you actually have a source, a reason for your claim.

You have none, that is obvious. And what you did find, I'm sure after a long search, actually supports what I have been saying for a year now. Is that why you won't simply link to the paper. You know, the one paper that you think might support your claim.

You have a strange view of science. Science is a progression of knowledge.
 
But it is an after the fact effort, since somebody has to explain why it's gotten so much colder in the NH in winter.

oh has it?

Winter Heat Swamps Alaska : Image of the Day
earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=83032‎
Feb 4, 2014 - In January 2014, record-breaking heat left Alaskans dealing with ... Spring-like conditions set rivers rising and avalanches tumbling. This map ..

Meanwhile on the other side of the North Pole in Siberia…

All-time record monthly warm temperatures have been observed at many sites in the Siberian states of Yakutia and Kamchatka. In what is normally the coldest permanently inhabited place on earth, Oymyakon (various spellings), saw its temperature rise to a February record high of -12.5°C (9.5°F) on February 9th (previous record was -15.3°C/4.5°F in February 2010). The normal high temperature at this time of the year should be around -42°C (-51°F). Oymyakon also holds the world record (along with Verkhoyansk) for the coldest temperature ever measured on earth at an inhabited site: -67.7°C (-90°F) set on February 6, 1933 (almost exactly 80 years ago).

Other all-time monthly records have been set at:

Petropavlovsk-Kamchatski: 5.3°C (41.5°F) on Feb. 3 (previous record 5.0°C/41.0°F on Feb. 19, 1986)

Pevek: 5.6°C (42.1°F) on Feb. 8 (previous record 1.4°C/34.5°F on Feb. 28, 2008)

Magadan: 3.2°C (37.8°F) on Feb. 8 (old record 2.5°C/36.5°F in February 1968

Omolon: 2.9°C (37.2°F) on Feb. 7 (old record -0.6°C/30.9°F on Feb. 1, 1985). This is the first time this site has ever risen above freezing during the month of February.

Okhotsk: 2.0°C (35.6°F) on Feb. 7 (old record 1.9°C/35.4°F in February 1985

Keyes: 3.7°C (38.7°F) on Feb. 6 (old record 3.0°C/37.4°F on Feb. 28, 1982).

http://www.wunderground.com/blog/we...n-siberia-brazil-and-cold-in-us-upper-midwest

In other regions from Alaska to Eastern Europe, record or near record warmth and dryness have settled in with a large swath of eastern Europe showing average temperatures more than 6 degrees Celsius above the seasonal average. Over the extreme northern Pacific, adjacent to Alaska and the Bering Sea, seasonal temperature range from 4-12 degrees Celsius above average. And it is this extreme northward invasion of warm air that is displacing polar and Arctic air masses toward the east and south, putting much of the US in the firing line for strange and severe winter weather.

so which NH winter are you referring to??.....sloppy language as usual, glaring failure to comprehend even a modicum of climate science so basics have to be patiently explained over and over and over again.
That fact is not speculative, it is easily discerned by reading the last few pages.

Models predict more extreme weather events......specific regions are not modelled as yet and it won't be the north first, the monsoon affects billions of people and if it gets out of whack there will be serious problems.

The Arctic Dipole link was provided innumerable times.

The continental US is NOT COTU.....get over it.:rolleyes:
 
Oh there is no doubt at all that after the fact, many researchers are trying to build and adjust climate models to try and both explain the colder winters, as well as predict what will happen.

That isn't the claim that was made.

If you are honest, it's not hard to state what has happened, and is happening.

Climate models did not predict colder winters, but in fact the greatest warming was expected in winter, in high latitudes, and in the arctic.

They were wrong, however the other factors involved may also be the reason, as many ideas are being exchanged to explain the cooling that the SST data shows, the surface stations show, the ocean readings show, and satellite measurements of the troposphere clearly show.

That is another issue.

Since the colder winter trend has become undeniable, models are being used and ideas flung about to explain it, and also claim causation from global warming. Which is hilarious since there isn't actually any warming to blame it on for over a decade.
be that as it may, climate models did not predict what happened.

What we are seeing, and is slowly being introduced here, is that currently new models are being used to predict colder winters, but only by the mechanism of global warming. These are not the climate models that predicted the warmer winters, obviously.

But it is an after the fact effort, since somebody has to explain why it's gotten so much colder in the NH in winter.

It's truly shameless that somebody is already trying to claim "this was predicted all along", by the same climate models that predicted warming in winters.

It's a really big lie. Good luck with it.

Do you believe that the laws of physics have changed and that the earth has stopped warming? Do you think that CO2 has ceased to be a greenhouse gas? Was the last decade not the warmest on record? I should point out as well that the last year below the 20th century mean was 1976.
What climate scientists have said is that there will be a reduction in winters with extreme cold temperatures not that they would disappear. Here in the UK we had a long run of mild winters followed by a couple of cold winters. this year we are back to above the norm temperatures with plants flowering early again.
Another point is that if you want to take issue with scientists and meteorologists explanations for the extreme cold weather in the USA then you have to say why they are wrong. Do you think that arctic temperatures above the norm cannot cause the abnormal jet stream behaviour that brought the cold weather?
 
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There'll be water problems this summer whatever happens now, but an El Nino this autumn would probably bring relief - and with it some different problems.

Regarding cold weather in the Eastern US, I think it's worth pointing out that, while extreme, it's not out of the ordinary. This sort of thing has happened before. What's actually remarkable is how remarkable so many people think it is, which rather suggests we've developed a new sense of what's ordinary. Which, in turn, suggests that the climate has changed.

There are those who'll say that climate is always changing, but I'm old enough to remember when it didn't.

Well, southern California has gotten enough rain that they are now having to do a lot of prep work in between the wet bands that keep sweeping the west coast, trying to avoid some of the worst of the inevitable mudslides and flashfloods. But, yeah, they certainly don't feel nearly as bad as "normal" winters of the '60s and '70s (but back then, I walked five miles to school every day,...uphill,...both ways!).

Seriously, part of the reason these "OMG frozen water is falling from the skies in January!" arguments are compelling to a large segment of society, is because in the US the median (and mean) age is somewhere around 37. Forty years ago was the mid-seventies, People who can remember 30-40 years earlier than that are relatively rare. Face it, we're outliers, but I guess that beats being out(right)liars!
(pardon me, I'm in good spirits this evening)
 
I see r-j maintains his COTU stance.

Winters in Canada have not gotten colder - they are an average of 2.1 C warmer than 50 years ago.
Winters in many regions have shown record warmth this year.
Your position is unsupportable.

The cold part of the Arctic dipole is offset by extreme record warmth in some regions for a month or more.

A cooling trend in NA winter would show steady gains in sea ice.
Instead we've seen record after record low extent broken and this year Arctic sea ice REDUCTION in February due to exceptional warmth.

Your thesis is as full of holes as an ice cube in boiling water......nice if it would do the same vanishing act.....this NH winter getting colder idea is unsupportable.

A wavering jet stream and more frequent Arctic dipole events are bringing weather extremes. As expected from a warming atmosphere and ocean.
 
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...As far as I know, earlier climate models did not have the ability to model climate on small enough scales get to stuff such as winter temperatures. I think that modern models are able to model seasonal conditions (as mentioned in your link, r-j). At least the modeling that I can find about cooling winters seems recent.

A couple of results from the first page at Climate Change Science Search Engine
with 'climate model cooling winters':
* How reliable are climate models? just has "For example, a climate model can tell you it will be cold in winter, but it can’t tell you what the temperature will be on a specific day – that’s weather forecasting.".

* Cold winter in a world of warming? (2010)


I know why you can't find a single source that says what you claimed. It's simply not true.

Personally, I don't go to blogs to research science, but if your search skills leave you no other option, state university libraries and librarians can be very helpful.
 
Do you believe that the laws of physics have changed and that the earth has stopped warming? Do you think that CO2 has ceased to be a greenhouse gas?
Does this mean you are ready to actually have a discussion about these things?

For starters, lets clear the table of all nonsense, because like yourself, I don't care for it.

Can we agree on some facts? Correct me if you think any of the following isn't true.

CO2 is a greenhouse gas. It is opaque to certain bands of IR but transparent to visible and UV light. CO2 molecule absorb certain wavelengths, and either warm other molecules by collision, or re-radiate the same energy, in all directions. CO2 is heavier than "air", but mixes well, even in the stratosphere.

Some of the CO2 we can measure in the atmosphere is from fossil fuels that people have burned, or from making concrete, and we know with out a doubt the increasing levels are partly due to these source. Land use also has decreased the natural uptake of CO2, further increasing the amount in the air.

CO2 levels are higher now that at any other time humans have been around. In fact, the best evidence says it has been a very long time since levels were this high. It is not a natural increase. There is no doubt from a scientific view on this.

How's that for a start? And that was off the top of my head.
 
Because I love science, and facts, and reality. You talk about evidence, especially some I know nothing about, I will love you. Forever. Even if you are insulting and rude, if you bring the science, I don't care.

You show me I am wrong, I will admit it, incorporate the data, and be a better scientists for it. I hate being wrong.

If you bring nothing but opinion, and talk down to me, and refuse to provide evidence, refuse to explain your reasoning, I will shred you. Just like any other woo woo.

It's up to you.

Reality is the only source of science.
 
If you make up strawmen, you can easily debunk them. Models only work at large scales, due to the limitations of technology.
I didn't say anything about scales, I am questioning a claim, not making one. Ironic that you just used a strawman argument.
Stamping your foot and demanding specific predictions for every location till you get blue in the face isn't going to really achieve anything.
Another strawman. The only thing my feet are doing is a kicking. Not too hard, but enough to get you to move it. if you have any evidence that "CLIMATE MODELS PREDICT COLDER WINTERS", lets see it.
Another point is that if you want to take issue with scientists and meteorologists explanations for the extreme cold weather in the USA then you have to say why they are wrong.
Logical fallacy. You can state somebody is wrong with out explaining to them why they are wrong. For example, if somebody claims that a high pressure system in the NH spins counterclockwise, I am not going to explain why I tell them they are delusional. Nor do I have to answer their demands for evidence to support "my claim", because that is also a logical fallacy. If you say something false, like "Climate models predicted colder winters", it's on you to try and make that pig fly.
 
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