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Nailed: Ten Christian Myths that show Jesus never existed

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pakeha

No cult with beliefs and hagiography points to anything but their own existence, especially, as in this case, when there's no independent source to confirm the historicity of either a mythicised man, or a humanised myth.
I think the problem is trickier than you give it credit for being.

Consider the Acts of Perpetua and Felicitas, surely a work of hagiography, dated to very shortly after the time of the events reported, and mostly attributed to eyewitness, directly or by authorial interview. On the one hand, much of what happens in the story seems plasuible (especially if we take the protagonists to be, ironically, adherents of the later-condemned heresy of Montanism, which the text supports but does not assert).

On the other hand, there is a pronounced supernatural dimension to the story, especially a series of four visionary dreams by Perpetua during her imprisonment (supposedly told in her words). The last of these is "symbolically fulfilled" in her supposedly factual death (unexpectedly by sword, as parallels her dream, rather than by animal combat, as she was sentenced).

So, hardly any time seems to have elapsed between event and narration, and there is already supernatural content. How can this be? The story is being told for nearly the first time, and it has already acquired "improvements." Let us assume arguendo a historical Perpetua.

The events, as they (by assumption) happened, were undertaken with conscious supernatural intent. BTW, supernatural intent is displayed "on both sides" in the story. The authorities wanted the execution to be a pagan religious ritual, with the Christians cast in the roles of priests of Saturn and priestesses of Ceres. (That didn't happen - was it really ever proposed?)

As the events happened, a "meaning" was imputed to them, and that supernatural meaning "stuck" to the factual narration. For example, Perpetua's animal combatant was a "mad" cow, a rare and unexpected treat for the crowd in the arena, whose availability despite her rarity was attributed to the intervention of supernatural forces. (And yet unusual female animal combatants are a prominent feature in female martyrology of less secure historicity, compare Thecla.)

If events as they happen are taken to be meaningful indications of supernatural activity, then the narration of them can be expected to contain supernatural elements, along with claims of the miraculous (for events that are merely rare and uninvestigated).

So, you tell me, was there a real Perpetua? If so, do we more reliably arrive at her biography by "scraping away" indigestible parts of the hagiographical narrative, or instead by imagining the worlds, and the Christian women in them, where those elements are expected to appear in a narrative like this?
 
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Still you demonstrate that you don't understand what "Consensus" means in this context. Show me a University that teaches Carrier or Doherty's MJ. There are none, so you can't sorry.

Your statement is highly illogical and is completely irrelevant.

A consensus among Scholars would not require all of them to teach a University.

Brainache said:
Carrier and Doherty don't teach History at University and their MJ is very different to your 2nd century hoax scenario.

Marcion's Myth Son of God was different to Valentinus' Son of God which was different to Justin's Jesus, the Son of God.

Apologetic writers admitted there were multiple irreconcilable versions of Myth Jesus.

Multiple irreconcilable versions of Jesus are very good indications that the Jesus character was a Myth--a character with no established and no known historical evidence.

Can you remember how many versions of Romulus there were in Roman Mythology?
 
Your statement is highly illogical and is completely irrelevant.

A consensus among Scholars would not require all of them to teach a University.
The point being made is that those of them who do teach, don't teach Carrier or Doherty's myth scenarios.
 
The point being made is that those of them who do teach, don't teach Carrier or Doherty's myth scenarios.

That is precisely how we know that there is NO consensus. There are Scholars who do not agree and have not conceded that there was an HJ.

We already know the history of the Quest and that it had multiple failures and multiple irreconcilable versions of HJ.

Even today, some Scholars argue that HJ was a resurrected character.

It is obvious that you don't know what "consensus" means.
 
That is precisely how we know that there is NO consensus. There are Scholars who do not agree and have not conceded that there was an HJ.

We already know the history of the Quest and that it had multiple failures and multiple irreconcilable versions of HJ.

Even today, some Scholars argue that HJ was a resurrected character.

It is obvious that you don't know what "consensus" means.

Sad.

Just sad.
 
pakeha


I think the problem is trickier than you give it credit for being.


Consider the Acts of Perpetua and Felicitas, surely a work of hagiography, dated to very shortly after the time of the events reported, and mostly attributed to eyewitness, directly or by authorial interview. On the one hand, much of what happens in the story seems plasuible (especially if we take the protagonists to be, ironically, adherents of the later-condemned heresy of Montanism, which the text supports but does not assert).

On the other hand, there is a pronounced supernatural dimension to the story, especially a series of four visionary dreams by Perpetua during her imprisonment (supposedly told in her words). The last of these is "symbolically fulfilled" in her supposedly factual death (unexpectedly by sword, as parallels her dream, rather than by animal combat, as she was sentenced).

So, hardly any time seems to have elapsed between event and narration, and there is already supernatural content. How can this be? The story is being told for nearly the first time, and it has already acquired "improvements." Let us assume arguendo a historical Perpetua.

The events, as they (by assumption) happened, were undertaken with conscious supernatural intent. BTW, supernatural intent is displayed "on both sides" in the story. The authorities wanted the execution to be a pagan religious ritual, with the Christians cast in the roles of priests of Saturn and priestesses of Ceres. (That didn't happen - was it really ever proposed?)

As the events happened, a "meaning" was imputed to them, and that supernatural meaning "stuck" to the factual narration. For example, Perpetua's animal combatant was a "mad" cow, a rare and unexpected treat for the crowd in the arena, whose availability despite her rarity was attributed to the intervention of supernatural forces. (And yet unusual female animal combatants are a prominent feature in female martyrology of less secure historicity, compare Thecla.)

If events as they happen are taken to be meaningful indications of supernatural activity, then the narration of them can be expected to contain supernatural elements, along with claims of the miraculous (for events that are merely rare and uninvestigated).

So, you tell me, was there a real Perpetua? If so, do we more reliably arrive at her biography by "scraping away" indigestible parts of the hagiographical narrative, or instead by imagining the worlds, and the Christian women in them, where those elements are expected to appear in a narrative like this?

Good questions, eight bits.
The answer to the first is that Perpetua, Felicitas, Thecla and a long etc. are simply elements in pious and supposedly edifying narratives.
I live in Spain, where saints were manufactured from thin air back in the day, so this is nothing new or surprising or even implausible.

The answer to the second, in my pre-coffee state, would be the second option. Rather than saying 'imagining' I'd say deducing, using literary analysis and confirming any deductions with archeological remains, records of the period and accounts from independent source.

The trouble with the Jesus hagiography is that it stands alone, so the most parsimonious take, as far as I can see, is to label it as dubious until we have more information.
 
... The trouble with the Jesus hagiography is that it stands alone, so the most parsimonious take, as far as I can see, is to label it as dubious until we have more information.
To the contrary, fortunately. It exists in four versions containing both shared and independent sources. And by studying the disparate content of these sources, much may be learned.
 
No cult with beliefs and hagiography points to anything but their own existence

Well I guess you've made up your mind, then.

Not really, Belz...
I follow biblical archeology as closely as I can, awaiting what will turn up next.
The desciphering of that 1st century library in the Villa of the Papyri is one of the most exciting possible sources for information about the 1st century I know of.

Thus far, there's nothing to confirm the Jesus hagiography outside of the texts and the cult themselves, AFAIK.
Obviously, YMMD.

Anyway, I'm off to make some coffee and explore the ""Jesus Story: A peice of History that bugs me" thread. The JREF is goldmine of information!
 
To the contrary, fortunately. It exists in four versions containing both shared and independent sources. And by studying the disparate content of these sources, much may be learned.

Of course you're right, Craig B.
Thanks for the heads-up about my clumsy and confusing redaction.
What I meant to convey was that the Jesus hagiography stands alone, without outside confirmation of its historicity.

Obviously you're right about the much may be learned , otherwise I'd ask myself why are we here rather than doing Sudoko.
 
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pakeha

The trouble with the Jesus hagiography is that it stands alone, so the most parsimonious take, as far as I can see, is to label it as dubious until we have more information.
Putting aside for another time that parsimony is a pre-systematic guide to truth, OK, so it is "dubious." Is the issue in equipoise, or is there any strict ordering among any of the alternatives, according to your estimation?

"No, just equipoise" is responsive, but hardly obligatory.

On the merits, I wouldn't have mentioned Thecla and Perpetua in the same post except that I find that their prospects for historicity to be starkly contrasting. Perpetua has a strong constituency for having been a real person. Thus, Jesus hagiography does not so clearly stand alone; and if not, Perpetua gives us what we so miss in Jesus' case, a truly fresh report of the actual supposed events.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/actsperpetua.html

And no "outside confirmation," not even a tomb (the place where she was traditionally said to have been buried has not had an easy history, maybe some of her is still there, maybe not).
 
Not really, Belz...
I follow biblical archeology as closely as I can, awaiting what will turn up next.
The desciphering of that 1st century library in the Villa of the Papyri is one of the most exciting possible sources for information about the 1st century I know of.

Thus far, there's nothing to confirm the Jesus hagiography outside of the texts and the cult themselves, AFAIK.
Obviously, YMMD.

Anyway, I'm off to make some coffee and explore the ""Jesus Story: A peice of History that bugs me" thread. The JREF is goldmine of information!

We're talking historicity, here, not hagiography.
 
To the contrary, fortunately. It exists in four versions containing both shared and independent sources. And by studying the disparate content of these sources, much may be learned.

The four versions of the Gospels that you use are not compiled from 1st century copies but from 4th century or later Codices.

You seem to have no idea that there is no actual evidence for any version of the Gospels or Pauline writings before the 2nd century or later.

Essentially, based on the existing dated evidence the Temple fell c 70 CE before the Jesus story and cult originated.
 
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The four versions of the Gospels that you use are not compiled from 1st century copies but from 4th century or later Codices.

You seem to have no idea that there is no actual evidence for any version of the Gospels or Pauline writings before the 2nd century or later.

Essentially, based on the existing dated evidence the Temple fell c 70 CE before the Jesus story and cult originated.

Still waiting for your evidence dejudge. Or a fleshed out version of your scenario.

You still haven't told us: Who, what, where, when, or why.

Will you ever?
 
dejudge said:
The four versions of the Gospels that you use are not compiled from 1st century copies but from 4th century or later Codices.

You seem to have no idea that there is no actual evidence for any version of the Gospels or Pauline writings before the 2nd century or later.

Essentially, based on the existing dated evidence the Temple fell c 70 CE before the Jesus story and cult originated.


Braianche said:
Still waiting for your evidence dejudge. Or a fleshed out version of your scenario.

You still haven't told us: Who, what, where, when, or why.

Will you ever?

Stop the lies.

I have shown the list of the registered and dated NT manuscripts that have been recovered.

None of the stories of Jesus and cult are dated to the 1st century pre 70 CE or before the Fall of the Temple of the God of the Jews.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...i#List_of_all_registered_New_Testament_papyri
 
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Stop the lies.

I have shown the list of the registered and dated NT manuscripts that have been recovered.

None of the stories of Jesus and cult are dated to the 1st century pre 70 CE or before the Fall of the Temple of the God of the Jews.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...i#List_of_all_registered_New_Testament_papyri

Still waiting for your evidence dejudge. Or a fleshed out version of your scenario.

You still haven't told us: Who, what, where, when, or why.

Will you ever?
 
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What monstrous fables.


I laid out the evidence.

1. The Temple of the Jewish God fell c 70 CE.

2. Stories of Jesus and cult are found in the 2nd century or later

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...i#List_of_all_registered_New_Testament_papyri

The evidence is there for everyone to see.

Yes, we can both copy and paste until we get banned for spamming, but you still have not provided an answer to the question.

A list of texts does not tell us who, what, where, when, or why.

When will you attempt to support your ludicrous assertions?

Or, are you admitting that you cannot support them?

Because, if you could support them, the expectation at this Forum is that you will support them. This has not happened after repeated requests.

We are left with one conclusion: You cannot support your position, therefore we are free to dismiss it as the ignorant raving it so obviously is.

Thank you for participating.
 
Yes, we can both copy and paste until we get banned for spamming, but you still have not provided an answer to the question.

A list of texts does not tell us who, what, where, when, or why.

When will you attempt to support your ludicrous assertions?

Or, are you admitting that you cannot support them?

Because, if you could support them, the expectation at this Forum is that you will support them. This has not happened after repeated requests.

We are left with one conclusion: You cannot support your position, therefore we are free to dismiss it as the ignorant raving it so obviously is.

Thank you for participating.

What big lies.

I have answered your questions.

I have laid out the evidence.

Is is not an accepted historical fact that the Jewish Temple of their God fell c 70 CE?

Did I not show you the list of the dated NT manuscripts that have been recovered and that none of them are dated to c 70 CE?

You seem to have some hidden agenda because of the quantity of open remorseless fallacies that you post.
 
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