Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

Status
Not open for further replies.
For everyone's interest, here is Machiavelli's admission that stomach content analysis is 90% accurate; in that in 90% of cases the stomach empties in 2 to 2.5 hours.

He then says this does not describe "the totality of cases". In layman's terms, he's speaking of the other 10%!!!!

He's also saying that for one to defend themselves from an allegation, the defence needs, "it needs to be basically "certain" in order to work..."

Aside from turning burden of proof on its head - Machiavelli describes well Cassazione's flawed reasoning for overturning Hellmann's acquittals.

The core of his reasoning? That TOD is irrelevant. Yes, he said that.

Read on.

Since you insist, I'll try to be very quick.
Follow me.

a. The stomach content argument is a defense argument, which is brought up as evidence - as a certain element of counter-evidence - against an already esptablished set of incriminating evidence. Therefore, it should have a very high quality, a very high standard; it needs to be basically "certain" in order to work.

b. About this argument, there are two big problems:

1. the inference is intrinsically imprecise, for multiple reasons. Yes, it is true that in 90% of cases or more stomach empties within 2-2.5 hours, however this is not the totality of cases, and there have been mistakes assessing TOD of up to 12 hours based on stomach contents. This is because the datum suffers of multiple uncertainities, both about the person conditions and about circumstances, and - not irrelevant - even about a true knowledge about time of last meal.
For example, digestion may well be blocked for negative incidental factors. For example, a condition of stress or fear (like a roommate organizing a prank or any other disturbing circumstance like people argueing or smoking or having a threesome in the dining room). It can also suffer a block because of improperly baked house-made bread.

Also, the same datum suffers uncertainty about the time at which Meredith actually ate. Because what we have defined in papers is a non-continuous meal starting around 18.30 and finished at about 20.00. The slogan put forward, that as for digestion time the only thing that matters is the time of the first bite, is quite nothing more than that, a slogan. There is no scientific proof that the fact that you go on eating for an hour and a half, this won't delay the emptying of the stomach. Are you sure the ingestion of further food doesn't delay the start of emptying? I'm not sure, actuall nobody is sure about that, and it would be unreasonable to assume that the lenght of the meal does not influence the delay of stomach emptying.
In adition to that, we must say that there is actually no information not even about when Meredith actually gave the "first bite", because some of the English girls remember more or less - very imprecisely and based on inference - about the approximate time when the first entry (pizza) was ready, but all three were doing othr things meanwhile (watching photos etc.) and nodbody knows the actual time when Meredith even begun to eat.

2. a second problem, beyond the intrinsic imprecision of the datum, is its lack of relevance. The problem is, that the TOD itself is irrelevant. It may be relevant as for Curatolo's credibility in terms of his seeing the right people, some may deduce. But as for the rest of the evidence, there are ample time frames both later than 22.30 as well as earlier (and again, I stress the concept that time of death is not the same thing of the beginning of the aggression, and beginnning of aggression may not be the same time of the time of beginning of the "situation" that lead to the aggression: even the "earliest" non-fatal but just stressfull event might cause emotion and stersss causeing a digestive delay).
The point is that TOD is an irrelevant element itself, because the defenadants have no alibi beyond 20.40. It makes no difference actully, when they killed her, and it may not be possible to know with certainity at what time it happened.

In conclusion, for the set of above said reasons, stomach content is not a piece of evidence capable to overturn the evidence set and is basically irrelevant.
 
Last edited:
I thought I read a rant against people called "demonstrable liars and idiots". Maybe you call 'pretzel' an argument which you can't answer to. I note down that I am the aggressive guy.



What a logical reasoning.

Incidental notes, just to drop in something. Novelli and Balding are probably two among the three top experts of bio-statistical methods applied to DNA forensics in Europe, Stefanoni is a member of ENFSI, certified iso 9001 and 17024; you could see a picture of Vecchiotti's refrigerator, she does not even have a freezer equipped with a temperature log, and not even with thermometer, and does not even protect samples with airproof wrapping. This should not require the adding of further comment.
You have plenty of evidence before your eyes about who is a proven liar; but as pother said, I can show people the evidence but you can't force someone to see it.

It's not my fault if some people are idiots. They are not a rare endangered kind.

There are people here who say Sabrina Misseri is innocent and Michele did it. Such is the state of their rational faculties. I know there are people who like Mario Spezi. His trial for the Narducci sidetracking case, set by the Supreme Court, is scheduled for April 8th (but he won't be able to attend, I think his helath is very bad). Would you like me to post an English translation of some document about Mario Spezi?

All Europe? Looks like Europe is in trouble then since Novelli whores himself out to confirm the quality of Stefanoni and Biondos work.


Can you tell us Stefanonis qualifications and certifications in Nov 2007 please? The proven liar is Stefanoni. She lied in court about the quantification of sample 36b. How can you deny this?

Vecchiotti is far more educated and qualified than Stefanoni ever thought about being. Do you stand behind Stefanonis wrapping of the mop?

DNA is best stored in a dry state. Not refrigerated or frozen as the clownish Stefanoni did.

BTW the bra clasp was stored in a tube filled with buffer solution and not simply in a damp state...it is another indication of her incompetence.

If you reread you will understand what js202 said "There is an aggressive pattern that is integral to your posting" means your posting and opinion and argument is aggressive...not you personally. Get over yourself please. Calling your argument aggressive is well within the MA.

Spezi is irrelevant to this case as is Sabrina Misseri. They are simply all Italian citizen victims (much like RS) caught in the corrupt, illogical web that calls itself the Italian judicial system.

Our citizen meanwhile is safe and sound at home. What you Italians decide to do with each other is irrelevant to us except to show us why it would be foolish and risky to invest anything at all in Italy. The laws are a mess and the courts are staffed by shameless fools not governed by anyone apparently.

Meanwhile, the citizens have coffee and discuss the love between a 11 year old girl and her 60 year old boyfriend. :-) Perfect!
 
For everyone's interest, here is Machiavelli's admission that stomach content analysis is 90% accurate; in that in 90% of cases the stomach empties in 2 to 2.5 hours.

He then says this does not describe "the totality of cases". In layman's terms, he's speaking of the other 10%!!!!

He's also saying that for one to defend themselves from an allegation, the defence needs, "it needs to be basically "certain" in order to work..."

Aside from turning burden of proof on its head - Machiavelli describes well Cassazione's flawed reasoning for overturning Hellmann's acquittals.

The core of his reasoning? That TOD is irrelevant. Yes, he said that.

Read on.
The following is straight from the link Hotnostrills supplied when arguing for guilt recently. This shows cognitive dissonance in the extreme to argue one way then post this.

"The discussion ... should help to explain why it is difficult to state with any precision how long ingesta remains in the stomach, small intestine and large intestine. Nonetheless, there have been many studies on GI transit, and the table below presents rough estimates for transit times in healthy humans following ingestion of a standard meal (i.e. solid, mixed foods). 50% of stomach contents emptied 2.5 to 3 hours Total emptying of the stomach 4 to 5 hours
50% emptying of the small intestine 2.5 to 3 hours
Transit through the colon 30 to 40 hours "

The highlighted part is sufficient information. Therefore when Meredith got home at 9, unstressed, by all available corroborative evidence, her digestive state was statistically already extreme, to have 0% stomach emptying. Raffaele was using his computer 30 minutes after this. In all honesty, how can this be dismissed by Machiavelli? Is Maresca aware of all this? Will Lyle Kercher do this study? It is exceptionally straight forward. It makes the bra clasp et al irrelevant. I know it is just repeating what you are saying Bill, but seems to me the simplest get out of jail free card.
 
Maybe I can explain? LondonJohn, there could be another meaning to what Coulsdon meant. After watching Vogt's documentary, maybe what Coulsdon meant to say was "That was interesting. I"ll have some more Ripple.". :p

("Ripple" was the cheap American wine drunk in U.S. television comedy sketches.).

Ripple wine....it still cost just a $1.09.
 
The following is straight from the link Hotnostrills supplied when arguing for guilt recently. This shows cognitive dissonance in the extreme to argue one way then post this.

"The discussion ... should help to explain why it is difficult to state with any precision how long ingesta remains in the stomach, small intestine and large intestine. Nonetheless, there have been many studies on GI transit, and the table below presents rough estimates for transit times in healthy humans following ingestion of a standard meal (i.e. solid, mixed foods). 50% of stomach contents emptied 2.5 to 3 hours Total emptying of the stomach 4 to 5 hours
50% emptying of the small intestine 2.5 to 3 hours
Transit through the colon 30 to 40 hours "

The highlighted part is sufficient information. Therefore when Meredith got home at 9, unstressed, by all available corroborative evidence, her digestive state was statistically already extreme, to have 0% stomach emptying. Raffaele was using his computer 30 minutes after this. In all honesty, how can this be dismissed by Machiavelli? Is Maresca aware of all this? Will Lyle Kercher do this study? It is exceptionally straight forward. It makes the bra clasp et al irrelevant. I know it is just repeating what you are saying Bill, but seems to me the simplest get out of jail free card.

This is the alibi for Raffaele. Raffaele is the alibi for Knox. Caso Chiuso.
 
What is also notable about that recording is how dependant Knox and the police were on faithful interpretation.

Was there a translator at this interview who saw it as her mandate to "mediate" a chaotic scene between cops and accused? Did she need to place herself into the interrogation with her own experiences of memory loss?


Hey Bill Williams,
I read last night that Amanda slandered that mediator, err, translator:
Perugia Shock said:
Meanwhile we have appreciated even more Mignini's high legal knowledge.
Amanda didn't say who hit her. No problem for Mignini, the slander is against all policeman who stepped around during her questioning, and against the interpreter, who didn't translate properly and even suggested her to remember about Patrick.
How many crimes were you able to spot out in Amanda's statements while she was trying to defend herself? One? You are no good at law. Mignini saw six crimes and, together with Comodi, sued Amanda again.


Link:
http://web.archive.org/web/20100806...06/touch-and-go-in-court-for-amanda-knox.html
 
LJ - I remember your point and I got it at the time. What are the mechanical actions she would have to go through to delete this message? Good question. And when did she do it? Her account is she noticed the message and replied straightaway, no doubt delighted she did not have to go to work. She might have been sufficiently anal, I suppose, to have deleted the incoming text at once, but, if she didn't, then when did she? Did she habitually engage in deleting sessions, maybe first thing in the morning? When? Would the SIM card keep a trace of what happened to the message?

The other thing is that this was neither the first nor the last time she said she saw Patrick's message. She had already said so on 10 Nov when speaking to her mother and she said so again when giving evidence. She has been persuaded that she deleted the message but she is wrong. She is, even now, still trusting the cops. As are people on this forum.


I think LJ and Tesla would remember this better than me especially since I still don't bother myself with a "smart" phone and get along quite well with a dumb phone (mine can be submerged in water so naw)...but back in 2007 and earlier the memory on these phones was rather more limited and IIRC one could set a sort of "auto delete after read" default button on these limited memory phones. Am I correct about that and could that explain what may have happened?

I mean, I like Anglos theory and all...I just find it hard to believe those associated with this case were that intelligent frankly. Sneaky, slippery and willing to act corruptly? Sure just like their mafia teachers...but some of this sounds like PGP claiming Knox is at once an idiot and a mastermind both. When what she was actually is simply a younger naive young girl.

Now it appears that the IJS will say and do anything to uphold this ridiculous case... which has the effect of shining an ever brighter light upon them IMHO.

The press had the BBC documentary laid out yesterday...mixed blood, bloody footprints, etc...all Russell/Vogt/Magnini isms...

The question is...how given such strict libel/slander/defamation laws in GB is it possible for The BBC to get away with this? Cant they be sued? They are presenting provably false information about an ongoing trial. Not in England but with English parents as active participants in the case against the wrongly accused and now subjected to even more already disproved and false evidence.

Why it seems as if Yummi might have a hand in producing this documentary. Crazy I know.

ETA a question...Can one buy a copy of "Waiting To Be Heard" in GB yet?
 
Last edited:
"La Manina"

I'm thoroughly convinced that the bra clasp was a plant and the placement in a liquid buffer solution and a plastic bag was Stefanoni's way of insuring that her work could never be checked by an outside body. This was her way of limiting the discovery of her corruption so she would never go to jail for her actions in this case. Stefanoni may be a total boob, but she knows better than to do this. Combine this and the strange way that the bra clasp became a piece of evidence and you know what happened.

This way the most that will happen to her is that she is criticized for her incompetence


Gosh, I sooo miss FS's postings!
I mean, who else would help inform us of this:
COMODI: “ONLY ONE POSSIBILITY REMAINS: THAT THE POLICE PUT A BIT OF DNA ON IT”

A few choice quotes from Frank:
Perugia Shock said:
But Comodi, who now knows about DNA, excluded every possible contamination for knife and bra clasp and explained that “in the end only one possibility remains: that the scientific police put a bit of DNA on the bra clasp…”. And she challenged the jury: “Would you dare assume that?”.
She gave to the jury and lawyers an interesting idea.
We know that in other countries the problem of police framing people is well known, and it happens all the time. And in Italy?


THEY CALL IT ‘LA MANINA’
Cops Condemned for Planting Evidence
For the Genoa G8 affair a bunch of cops entered the school where the protesters were staying, and found (reminds you something?) some molotov bottles…

When it became clear those molotovs couldn’t have been in that school the prosecutor certainly wans’t afraid of a couple of cops, and accused them of having planted that evidence and produced false statements.
This time other cops came in help of the accused cops, up to the chief of the police.

Not a problem for the prosecutors who managed to condemn all of them. In the appellate trial 48 cops were convicted: the low ranks who planted the evidence and the superiors who didn’t arrest them, chief of the police included.

So, we are not talking a single one this time, but the variety of cops, the naturalness with which they were making crimes, falsifying evidence and statements, lying in court, shows that such behavior is not an exception at all.

‘They think they are covered by immunity’, Genoa judges explained. In truth they can be covered by immunity, in case of a dishonest chief, or prosecutor, or judge, who act as their accomplices. But then another court comes, Italian or European, and it may even happen that it sends all of them to jail without any problem….

Even Our Friend

“They were fabricating evidence to be used when needed’, the court of Florence explained, when sentencing the cop Giuttari and the prosecutor who had trusted him, Mignini.

So, in Italy too, the phenomenon of planting evidence exist. Papers even gave it a name, la manina, a “little hand” that drops the piece of evidence at the right place or manipulates it in the right way. The Italian courts above, in front of impossible evidence, understood that cops had fabricated it.

For our case, the possibility Comodi alluded to with her ambiguos sentence would explain everything. Will the jury dare?


Link:
http://web.archive.org/web/20110929...ains-that-the-police-put-a-bit-of-dna-on-it”/


Interesting article, eh ACbyTesla?
 
I thought it was the motive that was irrelevant....so now its the Motive and TOD that are irrelevant? ok, I'm trying to follow here. What is relevant cartwheels?

Yes and luminol footprints leading from nowhere and going to nowhere and not from blood. So the cartwheels and the bloodless bloody footprints. Got it?
 
Ok... I'm just watching the doc. RG says Meridith invited him over....... How did he supposedly do this? Phone... facebook.... email? Seems like something that would be provable.
 
Yes, that's essentially how I saw it (and yes, those words were spoken by Guede's lawyer Biscotti).

However, I would expand upon what you're suggesting: in my opinion, this "documentary" left (intentionally, in my view) the uninformed viewer with the feeling that Guede really did play only a minor role in the attack and murder. It let Biscotti's words go unchallenged, as it let Mignini's and Comodi's words about the dynamic of the attack go unchallenged.

In my view, there was a real and concerted effort by this programme to minimise the whole "Guede element". And I think there was a deliberate effort to convince the uninformed viewer that Knox was the prime mover and prime actor in the attack and murder.
Yes, that's the impression I was getting as well. I wouldn't say they were unchallenged (Guede's supposed role) because the verdict essentially disbelieving the account was reported immediately after. However, his account through his lawyer was given a disproportionate amount of airtime, and his lawyer's musings also.

I agree with you that anyone watching this would come away from it convinced of Knox's guilt as the main protagonist.
 
Ok... I'm just watching the doc. RG says Meridith invited him over....... How did he supposedly do this? Phone... facebook.... email? Seems like something that would be provable.

Guede claims that he was invited over the night before while chatting MK up at a Halloween party. No witness saw this however.
 
Last edited:
I never heard a thing about TOD.... or how RG went dancing... or his Skype confession.... or RS computers last use.... in fact they left a lot of stuff out.
 
I never heard a thing about TOD.... or how RG went dancing... or his Skype confession.... or RS computers last use.... in fact they left a lot of stuff out.
Yes Caper, it is really surprising that they left out the bit where Raffaele is at home using his computer while Meredith lies dying, because that is the unimpeachable truth, so inadmissible. Time for the young and the restless to grab this case by the scruff of the neck.
 
Yes, that's the impression I was getting as well. I wouldn't say they were unchallenged (Guede's supposed role) because the verdict essentially disbelieving the account was reported immediately after. However, his account through his lawyer was given a disproportionate amount of airtime, and his lawyer's musings also.

I agree with you that anyone watching this would come away from it convinced of Knox's guilt as the main protagonist.


Sure they would. Anyone not familiar with the facts could easily believe AK was involved going by this BBC/NBC disaster against facts.

But it was not RG lawyer who presented the most BS. In fact the biggest liar and misinformer... who also went completely unchallenged... was Comodi. She is a lying snake.

Mixed blood was a direct lie. Although Gino came off as an idiot as well she never made it clear that nothing proved mixed blood at all. She was more like...so what if there was mixed blood. WTH? At this point?

Comodi was the worst. I would love to freely interview her. Mignini kept his mouth shut better which shows he must have learned something.

These are slick crooks. Course it is easy when you are pitched only softballs by cheating lying pitchers like Russell and Vogt and Hubby...err and company.

If I were the defendants I would sue the hell out of NBC, BBC, Vogt, Russell and company. They produced an unbalanced pack of lies during an ongoing case. They certainly know and understand there was no evidence of mixed blood. No evidence of any footprints attributable to AK or RS, etc...and yet they claim that openly. Two knives, 40 wounds, even Superman could not do that says Comodi. This woman is a lying liar. A true toilet.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom