Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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Charlie Wilkes said:
It will.

If experience is any guide, it will take quite a few years. People will retire and move on, but the truth of what happened will never change. Someday, Amanda and Raffaele will be legally exonerated.

It took Lindy Chamberlain 32 years. I'm hoping we can do better for Amanda and Raffaele.
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RandyN said:
In any country injustice can happen, but most can safely rely on the free press and news to be the watchdog looking into suspicious activities even from within a foul government.

Italy has no such safety available. And so your pessimistic view is quite warranted IMHO.
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There are too many people who are willing to defend the prosecution. There are too many people willing to defend the law enforcement. There are too many people who argue that they must be guilty because that is what the judge or jurors believe. There are too many people willing to defend Stefanoni despite her methods and lab being discredited by others. There are too many people who cite false evidence, remain ignorant, and are not able to think critically or logically. There are too many people who claim she is guilty because of the false witness statement and they have the backing of "accredited" individuals like Alan Dersoswitz (sp?) or whoever that O.J. lawyer is. I mean, Nencini admits his jurors watched and read tabloid fodder, but people still defend. It seems a lost cause.

On websleuths, I saw someone say it does not matter how they collected the bra clasp because Raffaele's DNA was not supposed to be on it (they know this how ... ?) There is a video of them contaminating it and yet they will argue that it is not contamination because Stefanoni said so, lol. Nevertheless, this proves that Sollecito murdered Kercher to them.

And they can't be reasoned with.
 
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theoretically it's possible...

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RandyN said:
Yes, funny you didnt know about the dead skin cell thing then. No DNA in poop either ...just saying.
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FROM: http://forensicsciencecentral.co.uk/dna.shtml

Sources of DNA Evidence & DNA Extraction

"In terms of forensic DNA analysis, there is a variety of possible sources of DNA evidence. The more useful sources include blood, semen, vaginal fluid, nasal secretions and hair with roots. It is theoretically possible to obtain DNA from evidence such as urine, faeces and dead skin cells, though this is often classed as a poor source due to the lack of intact cells and high levels of contaminants preventing successful analysis. Such samples will be collected depending on the type of sample... "

d

ETA: I can find more cites if you want
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RandyN said:
Yes, funny you didnt know about the dead skin cell thing then. No DNA in poop either ...just saying.
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I'm not sure of either of these things. Poop frequently carries other cells along with it outside the body and very frequently small amounts of blood. And I was under the impression that hair brushes are sometimes used to get DNA to identify accident victims. I've read that it is often difficult to get DNA from either but it is sometimes possible.

??????????? Am I just reading the wrong materials?

I just saw that Amy NINJA d me.
 
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They're looking for hair roots...

acbytesla said:
I'm not sure of either of these things. Poop frequently carries other cells along with it outside the body and very frequently small amounts of blood. And I was under the impression that hair brushes are sometimes used to get DNA to identify accident victims. I've read that it is often difficult to get DNA from either but it is sometimes possible.

??????????? Am I just reading the wrong materials?
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No you're not. I quoted from this source in a post a couple post above yours:

http://forensicsciencecentral.co.uk/dna.shtml

When they're going through hair brushes, they're looking for hair with roots. That has DNA. but not hair. Red blood cells don't have DNA, but white blood cells do,

d

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AmyStrange said:
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FROM: http://forensicsciencecentral.co.uk/dna.shtml

Sources of DNA Evidence & DNA Extraction

"In terms of forensic DNA analysis, there is a variety of possible sources of DNA evidence. The more useful sources include blood, semen, vaginal fluid, nasal secretions and hair with roots. It is theoretically possible to obtain DNA from evidence such as urine, faeces and dead skin cells, though this is often classed as a poor source due to the lack of intact cells and high levels of contaminants preventing successful analysis. Such samples will be collected depending on the type of sample... "

d

ETA: I can find more cites if you want
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Hair with roots does not equal dead hair, but thanks for the basic DNA lesson which has been gone over for the last several years here. We also knew about the red blood cell thing. I am unconvinced about dead shed skin cells. I am not sure about poop though. I know in this case the poop did not reveal Guede rather the paper he wiped with did.


No more cites are necessary... that's alright. Theoretically you would make a great Italian prosecutor....theoretically... :-)
 
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dust and skin

Dust, which is partially made of skin cells, does have DNA, as Toothman et al. showed back in 2008. Skin cells are not an ideal source of DNA, possibly because the loss of integrity of the nucleus leads to degradation of the DNA. There was a short thread in theScience forum almost four years ago on this subject. On the other hand cheek cells are a good source of DNA.
 
kcoh said:
There are too many people who are willing to defend the prosecution. There are too many people willing to defend the law enforcement. There are too many people who argue that they must be guilty because that is what the judge or jurors believe. There are too many people willing to defend Stefanoni despite her methods and lab being discredited by others. There are too many people who cite false evidence, remain ignorant, and are not able to think critically or logically. There are too many people who claim she is guilty because of the false witness statement and they have the backing of "accredited" individuals like Alan Dersoswitz (sp?) or whoever that O.J. lawyer is. I mean, Nencini admits his jurors watched and read tabloid fodder, but people still defend. It seems a lost cause.

On websleuths, I saw someone say it does not matter how they collected the bra clasp because Raffaele's DNA was not supposed to be on it (they know this how ... ?) There is a video of them contaminating it and yet they will argue that it is not contamination because Stefanoni said so, lol. Nevertheless, this proves that Sollecito murdered Kercher to them.

And they can't be reasoned with.
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Well, no. They can't be reasoned with, but honestly they're a teensy little sliver of a mostly apathetic public. At the moment they seem to be kind of full of themselves, and I expect that will continue for some months, as we watch for the Nencini court to issue whatever it can to justify its bizarre ruling.

Then the SC will have its say, and then we'll see what happens. I fully expect them to be ecstatic if Raffaele -- an innocent, honorable person -- is jailed.

But they aren't the reason this is happening. I notice that Amanda includes a few of their ravings on her blog post comments, probably to expose the vicious nature of what she must deal with to a more general public. It's a good strategy, because in that context they come across as truly awful human beings.

Which they are.
 
Mitochondrial DNA

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GWCarver said:
Mitochondrial DNA can be extracted from hair without the follicle. That is how the hair stuck to the pliers in Scott Peterson's boat was connected by the prosecution to either Laci Peterson or her mother.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/bombing/hair2.html
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Thank you GW. Mitochondrial DNA is a very interesting subject,

Mitochondrial DNA (DNA in organelles) is how scientist proved all dogs were genetic descendants of gray wolves:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2775109/
http://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/issues/99jul/9907dogs2.htm


Here's a wiki on Mitochondrial Eve:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve

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Could Raffaele file a lawsuit in an Italian court against Stefanoni demanding that she produce the datafiles related to the bra clasp? She was ordered by Hellman to produce it and it should be in the evidence file. She ignored a direct order from the Hellman court to produce evidence. Italian scientists can provide supporting statements that it is critical to examine the datafiles to know the validity of the results.

Sue her and her office for a staggering amount - Euros 100 million - and make it ten times that if she failes to produce the evidence before he is arrested and returned to prison. It will take ages to work its way through the Italian court process and he may not win but it should make the point that she has withheld the evidence. It should make headlines in Italy, result in editorial discussion of forensic evidence, and call attention to the missing datafiles.
 
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kcoh said:
There are too many people who are willing to defend the prosecution. There are too many people willing to defend the law enforcement. There are too many people who argue that they must be guilty because that is what the judge or jurors believe. There are too many people willing to defend Stefanoni despite her methods and lab being discredited by others. There are too many people who cite false evidence, remain ignorant, and are not able to think critically or logically. There are too many people who claim she is guilty because of the false witness statement and they have the backing of "accredited" individuals like Alan Dersoswitz (sp?) or whoever that O.J. lawyer is. I mean, Nencini admits his jurors watched and read tabloid fodder, but people still defend. It seems a lost cause.

On websleuths, I saw someone say it does not matter how they collected the bra clasp because Raffaele's DNA was not supposed to be on it (they know this how ... ?) There is a video of them contaminating it and yet they will argue that it is not contamination because Stefanoni said so, lol. Nevertheless, this proves that Sollecito murdered Kercher to them.

And they can't be reasoned with.
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No, they can't be reasoned with. But they are followers, a mob. They don't get to decide.

It's worth reading about the Dreyfus Affair, the Lindy Chamberlain case, the Birmingham Six, and other high-profile miscarriages of justice. It took years, but the outcome was the same in every case.
 
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Strozzi said:
Could Raffaele file a lawsuit in an Italian court against Stefanoni demanding that she produce the datafiles related to the bra clasp? She was ordered by Hellman to produce it and it should be in the evidence file. She ignored a direct order from the Hellman court to produce evidence. Italian scientists can provide supporting statements that it is critical to examine the datafiles to know the validity of the results.

Sue her and her office for Euros 100 million, and make it ten times that if she failes to produce the evidence before he is arrested and returned to prison. It will take ages to work its way through the Italian court process and he may not win but it should make the point that she has withheld the evidence. It should make headlines in Italy, result in some editorial discussion of forensic evidence, and call attention to the missing datafiles.
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I don't know about Italy, but here in the US, you can file a lawsuit for ANY REASON, and before anyone goes crazy on me, YES YOU CAN, BUT IT DOESN'T MEAN IT WILL RESULT IN A COURT CASE. It may get thrown out as a result of summary judgement or for some other reason.

Sometimes a threat of a lawsuit (in the US) is enough, but that's not always true.

If Italy is like the US, I'm sure Raffaele could file a lawsuit, and actually I think that would be a good idea for the reasons you give, but I wouldn't go for a million dollars. I would go for 1 euro plus court and lawyer cost.

That might get more attention, but that's just me,

d

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Charlie Wilkes said:
No, they can't be reasoned with. But they are followers, a mob. They don't get to decide.

It's worth reading about the Dreyfus Affair, the Lindy Chamberlain case, the Birmingham Six, and other high-profile miscarriages of justice. It took years, but the outcome was the same in every case.
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I will read about these cases.

kwill said:
Well, no. They can't be reasoned with, but honestly they're a teensy little sliver of a mostly apathetic public. At the moment they seem to be kind of full of themselves, and I expect that will continue for some months, as we watch for the Nencini court to issue whatever it can to justify its bizarre ruling.

Then the SC will have its say, and then we'll see what happens. I fully expect them to be ecstatic if Raffaele -- an innocent, honorable person -- is jailed.

But they aren't the reason this is happening. I notice that Amanda includes a few of their ravings on her blog post comments, probably to expose the vicious nature of what she must deal with to a more general public. It's a good strategy, because in that context they come across as truly awful human beings.

Which they are.
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The mentality of PGPs rolls over into real life. They are only mirroring the kind of thought process and flawed reasoning that the people involved in this case are.
 
Strozzi said:
Could Raffaele file a lawsuit in an Italian court against Stefanoni demanding that she produce the datafiles related to the bra clasp? She was ordered by Hellman to produce it and it should be in the evidence file. She ignored a direct order from the Hellman court to produce evidence. Italian scientists can provide supporting statements that it is critical to examine the datafiles to know the validity of the results.

Sue her and her office for a staggering amount - Euros 100 million - and make it ten times that if she failes to produce the evidence before he is arrested and returned to prison. It will take ages to work its way through the Italian court process and he may not win but it should make the point that she has withheld the evidence. It should make headlines in Italy, result in editorial discussion of forensic evidence, and call attention to the missing datafiles.
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I don't suppose there's any such thing as 'contempt of court' in Italy?
 
AmyStrange said:
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I don't know about Italy, but here in the US, you can file a lawsuit for ANY REASON, and before anyone goes crazy on me, YES YOU CAN, BUT IT DOESN'T MEAN IT WILL RESULT IN A COURT CASE. It may get thrown out as a result of summary judgement or for some other reason.

Sometimes a threat of a lawsuit (in the US) is enough, but that's not always true.

If Italy is like the US, I'm sure Raffaele could file a lawsuit, and actually I think that would be a good idea for the reasons you give, but I wouldn't go for a million dollars. I would go for 1 euro plus court and lawyer cost.

That might get more attention, but that's just me,

d

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I'd sue for the 100 million Euros but make it clear publicly that I would agree to an out of court settlement that included the EDF files for the bra clasp and the knife. That way you don't appear to be greedy but are willing to swing a big stick.
 
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AmyStrange said:
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I don't know about Italy, but here in the US, you can file a lawsuit for ANY REASON, and before anyone goes crazy on me, YES YOU CAN, BUT IT DOESN'T MEAN IT WILL RESULT IN A COURT CASE. It may get thrown out as a result of summary judgement or for some other reason.

Sometimes a threat of a lawsuit (in the US) is enough, but that's not always true.

If Italy is like the US, I'm sure Raffaele could file a lawsuit, and actually I think that would be a good idea for the reasons you give, but I wouldn't go for a million dollars. I would go for 1 euro plus court and lawyer cost.

That might get more attention, but that's just me,

d

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Amy, I think Raffaele should sue for a stunning amount to produce bigger headlines and demonstrate how much additional damage he is about to suffer further as a partial result of Stefanoni's failure to produce what should be exculpatory evidence. The Euros 100 million equates to US $ 136 million. That should justify 30 point headlines, don't you think?

Maybe Italian news and talk shows will bring on Italian scientists to discuss in terms the average Italian can understand the issues of the DNA analysis and why you need clean equipment to examine it, how contamination occurs, what it means when the DNA of 3 other males is on the clasp, why you should not preserve a cloth and metal bra clasp by immersing it in a liquid-filled storage container, etc.

Could he take such a lawsuit immediately to ECHR if it is thrown out of court in Italy on a summary judgement that prevents him from appealing in an Italian court?

I wish Machiavelli were here as he may know the legal process.
 
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andreajo said:
I don't suppose there's any such thing as 'contempt of court' in Italy?
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I dunno, but we do know there's such a thing as 'contempt of prosecutor.'

How many total people did Mignini file charges/start investigations on regarding this case? I lost track when it exceeded 20.
 
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