Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[toto]

Any reason why this video can't be seen in the UK? "This video is not available in your country" . Is there a transcript somewhere?

Found it here:

https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=10150169643774261

 

[Dan O.]

In the photograph I have seen, the glove is split at the end of the thumb. The tip of the thumb and the thumbnail (which has some random dirt under it) are bare and are touching the clasp. That should be enough to have that evidence disallowed.

Rolfe.

I thought I had all the photos (at least the official ones) but I have not seen that.

 

[Grinder]

Based on the above it doesn't seem like the duodenum argument helps the defense that much. Even if the start of cartoon evidence is accepted there is still time for AK/RS to make their way to the cottage, help Rudy kill Kercher for some completely unknown reason before the duodenum evidence indicates the latest time that Kercher could have been killed.

I know that has been discussed endlessly, but up until now I've been a passive observer and I just don't remember all the arguments. My apologies for that, but what have I got wrong here?

Is the issue here that the arguments have been based on different information about the time that it takes before food begins to pass into the duodenum than Lalli provided?

The TOD by the prosecution was after 11:30 because of Curatolo, Nara and the car breakdown. The duodenum evidence means the case needs to made by 10 pm no later.

So you are right that 9:30 or 10 TOD doesn't mean the computer evidence proves innocence, but it makes the prosecutions original Massei trial theory a no go.

 

[Dan O.]

[IMGL]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=597&pictureid=6976[/IMGL]

Does Quintavalle's mini-market deliver? If so, I would have just called them when they opened at 8 am and asked them to deliver six gallons of bleach and a big plastic bag, size XXL, to the cottage. Nobody would have been the wiser.

like I said earlier, I have evidence of a case for bleach being used in the hall at the cottage. This case is being used to hold papers.​

 

[RWVBWL]

The Silent Truth?

I have always wondered why the entire crime scene, which tells a story that is wholly at odds with the prosecution, is not central to this case.

The answer is that the case centers on what the prosecution puts forth - Amanda's statements, the bra fastener, the knife, the luminol, the bum in the park, the old lady who heard a scream... all the murky, tainted BS that doesn't begin to explain the crime, but can be used to undermine the obvious explanation and prop up the feeble claim that Amanda and Raffaele somehow played a role. That is what the case is all about. That's what we read about, and that is what the defense must attack, point by point.

Meanwhile, the truth sits and stares. It is silent. Lawyers can flap their arms and rant about Amanda the lying she-devil and distract people's attention from the truth. But the truth will never go away.

Guede did it. Amanda and Raffaele are innocent.

This is the silent truth.
Meredith Kercher raped and murdered.


Miss Kercher lies surrounded by incriminating evidence in her small bedroom showing that Rudy Guede did this horrible crime.

Rudy left evidence of himself on the bra lying at Miss Kercher's foot.
He left evidence of himself inside her vagina.


There is no evidence of Amanda Knox inside Miss Kercher's bloody small bedroom.

There is no reliable evidence of Raffele Sollecito inside of Miss Kercher's small, bloody bedroom.




Rudy Guede also left evidence of himself on Miss Kercher's blue sweatshirt jacket.


That pillow seen above,

found lying under Miss Kercher's naked body, has Rudy Guede's palm imprint on it, and bloody imprints of his left sneaker, the same one that left imprints in the hallway. There is a probable semen stain also on this pillow, which Rudy also stepped in. For some reason this was never tested.





Rudy Guede left evidence of himself on Miss Kercher's purse on her bed.
Why was Rudy Guede looking in Miss Kercher's purse?
To call for help? Or steal from Miss Kercher and find the keys to the front door to escape and go dancing?


Staging?
WHAT STAGING?
Tell me, what staging occurred in Miss Kercher's small bedroom?
The only staging I can see is when Rudy Guede undressed Meredith Kercher and placing a pillow underneath her genitalia, raped her as she died.

Why does the Pro Guilt community defend Rudy Guede?!?


Clean up?
WHAT CLEAN UP?
What evidence is left to prove a bloody clean up was done in the apartment?

NONE!



Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are innocent
of involvement in Meredith Kercher's brutal, bloody murder and rape.

That's what The Silent Truth says...

 

[Caper]

Geeze... I think it was yesturday I was reading a story in Octomom and how the IRS is going after her stripper and porn earnings.... I thought to myself... I wonder if a porn company has offered Amanda Knox big money to do porn.... Then I figured even a porn company wouldn't be that tasteless.... Sure enough it's the 1st news story I read today after I google her name.

 

[platonov]

Horses for courses

Geeze... I think it was yesturday I was reading a story in Octomom and how the IRS is going after her stripper and porn earnings.... I thought to myself... I wonder if a porn company has offered Amanda Knox big money to do porn.... Then I figured even a porn company wouldn't be that tasteless.... Sure enough it's the 1st news story I read today after I google her name.

Porn companies are not known for their taste AFAIK.

Now admittedly offering a convicted sex killer a gig might appear dubious but she has a lot of 'fans'* out there & the bottom line is the bottom line.

Go figure.

* whose interest could hardly be described as tasteful.

 

[davefoc]

That's what happens when the information is cherry-picked from the hours of testimony. Especially when you are only awake for the prosecution's side. You don't get to hear "the rest of the story":

DEFENSE - AVV . BONGIORNO
QUESTION - Doctor, do you remember having written on February 13, 2008 , may I submit to him , a note to the Public Ministry, which was an errata ?
ANSWER - Yes.
QUESTION - If you can tell the Court what it is ?
ANSWER - Yes , no , it was an errata that was related
with an indication of a ... the time elapsed since the last meal that part of the report was , as I pointed out at least two / three hours , instead properly must be seen as ... should be viewed as no more than two / three hours.
QUESTION - So you're in this note of which ...
ANSWER - In this paper I pointed out that the last ...
QUESTION - I wonder ... also the acquisition, she makes a
correction and says that as a given that she wants to leave on record that this is the death occurred at a distance of no more than two / three hours last meal .
ANSWER - In two / three hours last meal , yes.

Time of Death
The defense argues that the time of death was improperly calculated. Due too errors early on, the time of death cannot be accurately estimated. The prosecution stated the time of death to be close to midnight. The defense argues that the time of death was between 9:30 and 10:00pm. Times were estimated using body weight, temperature and digestion. Dr. Lalli estimated the body weight at just 50 kg upon first viewing the body at the cottage. Dr. Lalli later stated after doing the autopsy that the weight was closer to 55 kg based on his best guess. Dr. Lalli never officially weighed the body. Defense experts stated that the body weighed between 55.4 and 60 kg. When looking at the correct weight along with normal digestion, the defense argues the time of death was between 9:30 and 10:00pm. The ideal weight formulas show her weight to be from 55.4 to 60 kg, with the average at 57 kg. Using this formula produces a more accurate time of death at around 9:30pm.

The court has indicated wrongly that Professor Ronchi testified that it can take 4 to 5 hours for stomach contents to empty, when his actual testimony on October 19, 2009, stated that it takes 3 to 4 hours. The court also concluded incorrectly that there was a failure to allow ligation of the duodenum, that there was slippage after traveling 5 meters in the small intestine so the court found it unreliable that Dr. Lalli found the duodenum empty. However, the court watched the actual autopsy on November 11, 2009, by Dr. Lalli who did correctly close the duodenum to prevent any slippage from the stomach down. The court talks about her eating food and drinking back at the cottage in one section but later says she had no alcohol. The prosecution assumes a mushroom was eaten after she returned home. Based upon experts and medico-legal criterion, Meredith died at 2-3 or 3-4 hours after her last meal which was completed around 6:30pm to 7:00pm. This places the death using 3 hours at 9:30pm to 10:00pm. The only food found in her stomach was consistent with what her friends indicated she ate for dinner that night. The food had not emptied into the duodenum and failed to initiate gastric emptying, which was properly closed by ligation as seen on the video footage. An item of food found in the 3rd distal esophagus was kept in a container but never tested to determine what is was, which likely was an apple from the apple pie desert she ate after dinner and not a mushroom from her home. The defense requests that this sample be tested to confirm what it is. If the sample is apple as the defense believes, the time of death would be closer to the range that the defense suggests, 9:30pm to 10:00pm.

There are discrepancies between time of death estimates based on the stomach beginning to empty argument put forth by the defense and that which can be calculated from Lalli's testimony.

The defense TOD estimate is based on the claim that the stomach begins emptying either 2-3 hours or 3-4 hours after the last meal. So from this information they calculate the TOD as 9:30 to 10:00 by guessing that the time for the stomach to empty is 3 hours and the last meal ended at 6:30 the earlier of the possible times for the end of the last meal. Altogether, if the arguments put forth in this thread about the duodenum emptying are correct, the defense was confused. First they used the end of the last meal instead of the beginning of the last meal for the start time and then they didn't use the testimony of Dr. Lalli who estimated 2-3 hours as the time it takes for the stomach to begin to empty.

Is it possible the reason they listed both 2-3 hours and 3-4 hours as the length of time it takes for the stomach to begin emptying is that the prosecution put on an expert witness that countered Lalli's 2-3 hour estimate with a 3-4 hour estimate or was the defense just confused and conflated the time for the stomach to begin to empty with the time for the stomach to empty completely?

 

[tsig]

No DNA in the murder room where she aided in a violent murder and many PGP theorize Meredith fought back and bloodied her nose yet DNA all over the house where no murder occurred and that is evidence that she was involved?

It seems clear that Amanda shedded DNA as it was found everywhere they looked EXCEPT the murder room. No hairs, no skin cells, no blood (blood on the faucet from Amanda) no prints, no identifiable footprints, etc. yet it means nothing - what again does mean something?

It means that Amanda must have never, at any time, been in Meredith's room.

Or you're wrong about Amanda shedding DNA like an old dog shedding hairs on the furniture.

 

[acbytesla]

Does anybody remember this case?
There was a case where couple in high school murdered another (female) student I believe because of jealousy.
Believe both the boy and girl were slated to go to military academies, one air force and one navy.
Cannot remember enough to get hits off of Google

Edit: Found it
Diane Zamora and David Graham.
Could it be argued that this is a similar crime to what might be argued here
Not that I believe it myself

No Rudy Guede murdered Meredith after being discovered burglarizing the cottage.

Oh, you mean the stupid, totally moronic theory that Amanda was some kind of femme fatale who managed to get her new boyfriend along with a total stranger to murder her new roommate for no reason whatsoever. And she was able to accomplish this through sex alone since she could barely communicate with either one because she had the vocabulary of a 5 year old.

 

[Strozzi]

It means that Amanda must have never, at any time, been in Meredith's room.

Or you're wrong about Amanda shedding DNA like an old dog shedding hairs on the furniture.

Tsig, since Stefanoni did not find Amanda's DNA on Meredith's wrists, arms, clothes, neck, chin, etc., I guess that just proves one thing. Stefanoni forgot to look, right? There couldn't be any other reason for Amanda's DNA not being on Meredith.

 

[Kestrel]

Meredith's last meal starting around 6:30 is consistent with Meredith leaving the party at 8:45 pm and the 2 hour running time of The Notebook, the movie they watched on DVD after eating.

 

[tsig]

Damn when dealing with the Italian legal system you've taken my core argument off the table. Lalli, the original coroner, stated in court that the time to move into the duodenum is 2 to 4 hours. That would put the very outside time to 10:30 if the dinner was not started until 6:30.

The theory of the late TOD developed well into the case as none of the witnesses came forward until month after the murder. The prosecution seemed to change their own much earlier time frame to fit Curatolo and Nara et al. and perhaps the defense was wary to fight for an obvious earlier time as they feared the prosecution were setting them up. Keep in mind I'm not allowed to use incompetence.

For me and many here EVERY piece of known evidence points to an early TOD. Nothing points to a late TOD except fitting in Curatolo and to a lesser extent the ear witnesses.

I wish that the defense would let us in on why they didn't pound the digestive evidence on top of the phone activity, the only witness that saw something at the time (Formica) even if it wasn't Rudy said it was about 10:20.

Perhaps they thought it was so obvious that the 11:30 TOD was ridiculous they didn't bother. It is inexplicable when incompetence is taken off the table.

The possibility that you may be mistaken never enters your mind?

 

[acbytesla]

I think that this is illustrative of one of the interesting things that's come out of the media circus surrounding this case. It's apparent that journalists, commentators, and even legal experts (as in this instance) have routinely misinterpreted, distorted or invented elements related to the case, in order (seemingly) to be "quotable" and "provocative". This behaviour, incidentally, applies to those on both "sides" of the case - there have also been several pro-acquittal/pro-innocence media commentators who have been guilty of similar failings.

It is apparent to me that for a large section of the media community (particularly in mass media, and especially in broadcasting mass media), the cult of personality, quotability, memorability and "provactiveness" matter far more than a sober analysis. It's a pretty potent illustration of the Marshall McLuhan maxim "The medium is the message". I think that people such as Dershowitz and others make a conscious choice to abdicate their powers of balanced analysis in favour of a deliberate adoption of a powerful, trenchant position when it comes to their media personas. It's sad, but it's probably an inevitable outcome of the cult of personality and the increasing fight for attention in a 24-hour multi-media age.

Precisely. I think it also demonstrates how lazy people are and just how much misinformation is out there. Dershowitz epitomizes this. He never bothered to learn actual details for informed sources. Instead he relied on the easily available tabloid trash. The news channels are also looking for conflict to make any story sexy and interesting and two people agreeing is not interesting.

I look at Dershowitz laziness in not learning the actual facts combined with his desire to be relevant and in the public eye responsible for him spouting off his nonsense. I see Dershowitz tactically making the calculated decision to "counter" his normally expected defense position so the media would be interested in his position and put him on tv.

Seriously, if Dershowitz a famous defense attorney had come on tv and declared that Amanda "falsely confessed" and this is another clear case of a police coerced confession and overzealous prosecution as you would expect, they probably would have never used him. So now, like Mignini et al, he's boxed in.....but still on tv.

 

[Grinder]

It means that Amanda must have never, at any time, been in Meredith's room.

Or you're wrong about Amanda shedding DNA like an old dog shedding hairs on the furniture.

No, it doesn't mean that. If Meredith cleaned her room occasionally, Amanda could have left DNA multiple times but none was found after the last cleaning by Meredith. Since Meredith would not have been cleaning up blood there would be no trace of her mopping or however she cleaned. We have been told for years that she was very concerned about cleaning.

They found Amanda's DNA all over her bathroom and on the common floors. They didn't seem to find copious quantities of Filomena's or Laura's DNA in the common areas. They didn't find Rudy's DNA in abundant quantities AFAIK in the kitchen or hallways but we know he was there.

 

[davefoc]

Does anybody remember this case?
There was a case where couple in high school murdered another (female) student I believe because of jealousy.
Believe both the boy and girl were slated to go to military academies, one air force and one navy.
Cannot remember enough to get hits off of Google

Edit: Found it
Diane Zamora and David Graham.
Could it be argued that this is a similar crime to what might be argued here
Not that I believe it myself

No Rudy Guede murdered Meredith after being discovered burglarizing the cottage.

Oh, you mean the stupid, totally moronic theory that Amanda was some kind of femme fatale who managed to get her new boyfriend along with a total stranger to murder her new roommate for no reason whatsoever. And she was able to accomplish this through sex alone since she could barely communicate with either one because she had the vocabulary of a 5 year old.

While I liked acbytesla's answer I didn't think it went to the point of Desert Fox's post.

The claim is that there has never been a murder similar to the murder that RS & AK are alleged to have committed. And Desert Fox's question is whether the murder by the couple in his example might be a similar crime.

I don't think so. Jealousy was the motive in the case put forth by Desert Fox and that has never been alleged as a motive in the Kercher murder case. The couple in Desert Fox's example also seem to have known each other for much longer than the six days that Sollecito and Knox knew each other. And the big difference, and maybe this was acbytesla's point, is that there wasn't a third party that actually committed the murder while the couple participated in some unknown way.

There is also the issue that in some scenarios Knox is accused of participating in some way of the rape of her female roommate. This kind of crime seems to be extremely unusual and it would be unique in this case given that Knox and Sollecito are nothing like the people that are known to have committed this kind of crime and had known each other for such a brief period of time.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

the problem of how to clean blood selectively has never been answered

Speaking honestly, I don't thoroughly understand,with any sort of real confidence, how the DNA found mixed with AK's in the room with the broken window can be dismissed. It's found mixed in more than one spot, correct?

I can't wrap my head around all the excuses made for RS's DNA on that clasp.

Same with the knife. I don't care the test couldn't be replicated. It was there and it was a match to Meredith. If RS didn't, with his own words, didn't put her blood on that knife ...maybe I could get over my suspicion.

I can't explain away the bare very clear footprint on the bathmat. Let's say for the sake of argument it's Rudy's...how did it get there? Did he fly? It was obviously a naked foot covered in blood. Who cleaned up the other bare footprints going into the bathroom?
Are we to believe he showered? Where were his cloths and shoes when he showered? How did he move from A-B?
The phone call to her mother @3am. That's some coincidence.

There's more...I'm pressed for time.

The mixed DNA in Filomena's room is in Rep. 177. Rep 176 also has a weak profile that may be Amanda's. One of these two electropherograms also has additional alleles. Unfortunately, the authorities did not take Filomena's and Laura's reference profiles; therefore, we cannot say whether or not the additional DNA was deposited by either roommate. You asked for routes of transfer for Raffaele's DNA, and we provided them. Those are not "excuses," in any reasonable sense of the word.

With respect to the knife, it highly questionable to consume all of a sample without express permission from the defense. In some jurisdictions specific guidelines cover this situation (see the ABA guidelines, for example), as some have pointed out. How is it possible that Meredith's DNA survived on the blade during all of the cleaning that a blood-covered knife would require, only for 100% of the remaining DNA to be collected when the FP swabbed it? As Bruce Budowle, Elizabeth Johnson, and others have pointed out, such an occurrence is not believable.

I think we covered the 4:47 AM phone call, except to point out that Comodi was no better than misleading and deceptive in the questions she asked. IMO that is also on very shaky ethical ground.

 

[Dan O.]

Is it possible the reason they listed both 2-3 hours and 3-4 hours as the length of time it takes for the stomach to begin emptying is that the prosecution put on an expert witness that countered Lalli's 2-3 hour estimate with a 3-4 hour estimate or was the defense just confused and conflated the time for the stomach to begin to empty with the time for the stomach to empty completely?

Is the defense confused or is it Massei? Massie would be quoting from the defense summary so I would reffer to that transcript to get a more accurate representation of their position. I find even 2-3 hours not to be representitave for T(lag). It's not been uncommon for posters to substitute T(1/2) when talking about gastric emptying time and I wouldn't be surprised to find Lalli had done the same.

If you had a name for this hypothetical expert of the prosecution I could search for his testimony.

 

[Dan O.]

It means that Amanda must have never, at any time, been in Meredith's room.

Or you're wrong about Amanda shedding DNA like an old dog shedding hairs on the furniture.

Or somebody doesn't understand the significance of when a sample contains a mix of normal and LCN DNA.

 

[Grinder]

Meredith's last meal starting around 6:30 is consistent with Meredith leaving the party at 8:45 pm and the 2 hour running time of The Notebook, the movie they watched on DVD after eating.

I do believe that the girls said 6.

British friends of Meredith, occurred between 6 pm and 8 pm and did not include mushrooms. (starting a 6)

In any case, it was indicated that a farinaceous meal would require 6 to 7 hours (see report of Umani Ronchi, Cingolani, April, page 45). Consequently, assuming that Meredith began to eat at around 6 pm, the gastric emptying could have occurred around midnight, or even later. The responses given by experts, on precisely this point, at the November 27, 2007 hearing before the GIP during the pre-trial phase were even more clarifying. Specifically, with reference to the pizza and thus to the foodstuffs that Meredith would have begun to eat at around 6 pm on November 1, 2007, Professor Umani Ronchi spoke of a gastric-emptying time of 6 to 7 hours (page 46 of the transcripts of the [182] statement of said hearing). With even greater expository efficiency, Professor Cingolani emphasised that the criterion of stomach contents is the most untrustworthy, the most unreliable criterion for determining the time of death, since it can result in variations that can go from 1 to 12 hours, or even more (see the hearing testimony of November 26, 2007, page 55).
​

The second quote from Massei may explain why the defense hasn't pushed the digestive evidence. The way the Italian system seems to work once something is in the record it is almost impossible to get it changed. The 11:30 time of Curatolo was created by Massei yet seems to remain until today.

The Massei court clearly didn't see the significance of when chyme STARTED to move out of the stomach but rather discuss complete emptying of the stomach.