Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Kaosium]

Do you think they do /will accept the 9 26pm cartoon in the motivation? If so there is quite a gap to fill in between 8 40 and 9 26. Amanda has been confirmed guilty carrying a knife. Will the report suggest she persuaded Raf to abandon the cartoon, meet up with Rudy, complete the murder, and get all the people and phones out of the house before 10pm. The phones seem necessary to be in human possession till 10 15.
I am thinking the motivation is quite constrained now, and a preemptive rebuttal can be formulated.

I'm not sure how Nencini will write his Motivations, however I can't wait to read it!

 

[lane99]

Please expand. Which cases, and how do they relate to what he has written with Mark Olshaker and said in interviews about the Knox case?

For starters, the murder of Christine Jessop. Where John Douglas appears to have tailored his "profile" to help build a case against a suspect the police already had in mind.

It's one of the most egregious miscarriages of justice in Canadian history. And when Douglas was asked to participate in an inquiry into how it occurred, he turtled.

And you're the one that invoked Douglas' supposedly unchallengeable reputation. Well, in fact, his track record is about as good as Sylvia Browne's.
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[acbytesla]

HotNostril has made about 60 posts here since yesterday. Blank assertions of guilt, but no effort to prove anything.

She has also made some recent posts in another JREF forum about her New Jersey governor, Chris Christie. HotNostril, I think Christie needs your help again.

Isn't that interesting Strozzi? It is typical guilter behavior. The simple fact is the argument never actually holds up to scrutiny. It's really embarrassing.

Most people Strozzi are not honest. Not that they are really trying to deceive people. Just that they are first lying to themselves. I think back to some of the great scientists in history that publicly rebutted some new discovery. Einstein for years said that quantum mechanics was bull. Remember his famous quote "that God doesn't play with dice"? this statement was to refute quantum mechanic's expression that you could tell where an a electron at a specific moment in time, but you could describe it in terms of probability.

But today we have an entire industry based on electrons.

Einstein held to his wrong headed belief for years. None of these guilters or prosecutors are any different. They made a declaration and everything is about proving that they were right instead a search for truth.

Hot Nostril refuses to think about it. She doesn't challenge her ideas and is offended if anyone else challenges them. Whereas, someone who is intellectually honest thinks about those challenges. Hot Nostril doesn't. This is all about being right. She argues to maintain her self esteem.

She will never open her mind.

 

[Desert Fox]

There is enough circumstantial evidence that the clasp was part of the bra that was saturated in Meredith's blood and aspirated drops on the front of the cups (including the lower half of the cups indicating that she was lying on her back when she was choking on her own blood) that I see no point in even considering that possibility. Why would someone fabricate a duplicate of the clasp so they could plant it as evidence when they could just waltz in through the open front door on November 14 and grab the original.

I have know a few girls who might break a bra clasp, leave it on a dresser, and it ends up on the floor and forgotten about. This is me just asking about dotting the "I's" and crossing the "T's"

I have trouble believing though that the invetsigators did not grab such an item though

 

[Dan O.]

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I'm not so sure he didn't. maybe after throwing away the phones, his adrenalin started to return to normal and he figured since he was gonna probably get busted anyway and he left without any money and decided to go back...

There's no proof, but there's also no proof he didn't.

And like I've said over and over, this is just my opinion,

d

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He didn't even flush the damn toilet. That's the proof that he didn't return after the adrenalin rush subsided. Can you cite any case where the perp returned to the scene of a murder except to clean up evidence of his involvement? Rudy knew where the police could find evidence of him in the cottage. He wrote it down for us while he was in the German jail. If he could do that weeks after he murdered Meredith, he could have done a better job of cleaning it up while it was still fresh.

Or, do you think he left to grab the kabob so he could come back leave his crap in the toilet as his alibi that he was taking the crap when a stranger came in and murdered his girl.

No, your opinion fails the sniff test.

 

[acbytesla]

Twenty years ago (maybe even ten), they might have been convicted but the US has been rocked by a number of major cases involving false confessions and no good evidence. It has hopefully shaken the court system.

I still think it wold be possible to get an arrest and a conviction, it just wouldn't have made it past the appeal.

 

[Strozzi]

I have know a few girls who might break a bra clasp, leave it on a dresser, and it ends up on the floor and forgotten about. This is me just asking about dotting the "I's" and crossing the "T's"

I have trouble believing though that the invetsigators did not grab such an item though

Some countries have a basic forensic science infrastructure but have never put in place standards. We have seen enough to know that Stefanoni went through the motions because of the importance of the crime, but that it was a facade to make it appear everything was done to scientific standards.

 

[Caper]

Twenty years ago (maybe even ten), they might have been convicted but the US has been rocked by a number of major cases involving false confessions and no good evidence. It has hopefully shaken the court system.

Less likely... But I definitely think it can happen. Though I don't think Italy have a presence of organizations like the innocence project like you do in the States.

 

[Desert Fox]

I'm not talking about all the evidence they destroyed, just the computers. The defense says Raffaele's computer shows their presence at Raffaele's through the night. Amanda's computer had photos of Meredith and her together in friendly relations, which is evidence to counter any allegation that they did not get along.

Let us say that Amanda and Meredeth were not getting along.
She has been there for a couple of months.
Has a new boyfriend, just try to move in with him.
Might very well have gone that way anyway if not for the trial for the murder of Meredeth.

 

[lane99]

Wha't's good for the goose

And this means what if they were wrongly convicted?

BTW. So were the West Memphis 3, the Central Park 5, Debra Milke, Ryan Ferguson and countless other.

This is a skeptics forum where people are expected to posit an argument and then demonstrate how it is true...

BTW, have you posited an argument and demonstrated it is true that Debra Milke was wrongfully convicted? If by "wrongfully convicted" you mean she didn't commit the act of which she was accused, I don't see how you could have. Since, to an exceedingly high probability, she did.
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[RoseMontague]

For starters, the murder of Christine Jessop. Where John Douglas appears to have tailored his "profile" to help build a case against a suspect the police already had in mind.

That's not how he describes it in his book Journey Into Darkness. He says he gave them a profile and that matched a suspect the cops had in mind, not that he tailored the profile to fit a suspect. I don't think your claim that he appears to have tailored his profile is exactly proof that he did so. Do you have proof of this?

 

[Samson]

I read every post an evaluate it based on my limited understanding of the material.
I have more doubts now than I did previously..so my participation isn't just to stand stubbornly in defense of my opinion.
The personal insults take away from otherwise interesting & thought provoking points being made.
I've found it's not a great idea to insult those you're trying to educate or change their opinion.

This is monumental, and I am being serious! A victory of sorts for JREF and its purpose.

 

[AmyStrange]

Agree to disagree...

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He didn't even flush the damn toilet. That's the proof that he didn't return after the adrenalin rush subsided. Can you cite any case where the perp returned to the scene of a murder except to clean up evidence of his involvement? Rudy knew where the police could find evidence of him in the cottage. He wrote it down for us while he was in the German jail. If he could do that weeks after he murdered Meredith, he could have done a better job of cleaning it up while it was still fresh.

Or, do you think he left to grab the kabob so he could come back leave his crap in the toilet as his alibi that he was taking the crap when a stranger came in and murdered his girl.

No, your opinion fails the sniff test.

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I think it's possible, maybe not probable, but still possible. You don't. We'll probably never agree on this, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

The bottom line, I believe Amanda and Raffaele are innocent of the murder,

d

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[Desert Fox]

I still think it wold be possible to get an arrest and a conviction, it just wouldn't have made it past the appeal.

Less likely... But I definitely think it can happen. Though I don't think Italy have a presence of organizations like the innocence project like you do in the States.

Not sure on the appeal process. . . .Look at how long a fight it was for the Norfolk Four.

I think the further south you go, the more likely it is also for conviction on bad evidence. The less likely as well than any judge will be willing to support innocence.

Maybe we need a nationwide evidence review board before it goes to trial.
Needs to be a group of experts out of state. Maybe even remove names and such, just the actual evidence.

Some countries have a basic forensic science infrastructure but have never put in place standards. We have seen enough to know that Stefanoni went through the motions because of the importance of the crime, but that it was a facade to make it appear everything was done to scientific standards.

I was pretty taken aback when I read that the clasp was taken a month and a half after the initial investigation.

 

[RoseMontague]

BTW, have you posited an argument and demonstrated it is true that Debra Milke was wrongfully convicted? If by "wrongfully convicted" you mean she didn't commit the act of which she was accused, I don't see how you could have. Since, to an exceedingly high probability, she did.
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The conviction is largely based on the testimony of a corrupt cop who is pleading the fifth. The rest of the evidence is really iffy, imo. She has been released and I seriously doubt there will be a retrial. Just my opinion.

 

[lane99]

South Carolina, I believe, is in the USA

I still think it wold be possible to get an arrest and a conviction, it just wouldn't have made it past the appeal.

Tell that to Billy Ray Cope. His conviction for raping and murdering his daughter was recently upheld on appeal.

The issues in his case are strikingly similar to those in the Knox case. And he is no more likely to be guilty than Knox.

I know there's a certain agenda behind the assertion that the Knox case couldn't happen in the US. There just isn't a lot of truth behind it.
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[Desert Fox]

BTW, have you posited an argument and demonstrated it is true that Debra Milke was wrongfully convicted? If by "wrongfully convicted" you mean she didn't commit the act of which she was accused, I don't see how you could have. Since, to an exceedingly high probability, she did.
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Let us say she did do it. . . .
All you have is the testimony of an officer who has eight cases of lying about confessions.

 

[Matthew Best]

Well, in fact, his track record is about as good as Sylvia Browne's.
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If it's as bad as that, why do you always, always mention the exact same case?

 

[Caper]

Not sure on the appeal process. . . .Look at how long a fight it was for the Norfolk Four.

I think the further south you go, the more likely it is also for conviction on bad evidence. The less likely as well than any judge will be willing to support innocence.

Maybe we need a nationwide evidence review board before it goes to trial.
Needs to be a group of experts out of state. Maybe even remove names and such, just the actual evidence.



I was pretty taken aback when I read that the clasp was taken a month and a half after the initial investigation.

I think a program should be designed to educate prosecutors.... In order to become a prosecutor.... And it seems prosecutors aim only to prosecute... Rather then justice.

 

[acbytesla]

Not sure on the appeal process. . . .Look at how long a fight it was for the Norfolk Four.

I think the further south you go, the more likely it is also for conviction on bad evidence. The less likely as well than any judge will be willing to support innocence.

Overall, I'd say you were right. But if you look through the featured cases at the National Registry of Exonerations, you will find quite a few from Illinois and New York, even California.

Maybe we need a nationwide evidence review board before it goes to trial.
Needs to be a group of experts out of state. Maybe even remove names and such, just the actual evidence.

I like this idea. Totally blind.

I was pretty taken aback when I read that the clasp was taken a month and a half after the initial investigation.

That clasp would get thrown out in a blink of an eye in the US. It violates standards for chain of evidence. And let's not get started about the fact that Stefanoni to this day has never presented the EDF files.