Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Bill Williams]

I think it was clear that there is no evidence whatsoever to hypothesyze the statement was "non spontaneous". The statement meets al requirements and criteria as for art. 350 § 7.
The delay of counsel also was perfectly legal and reasonable under art. 104 cpp.
The pro-Knox group should re-calibrate all their claims about this, and make it fit reality instead of their fantasy.

In your mind, everyone you don't agree with is a criminal.

Once again, Machiavelli simply asserts something, does not even try to demonstrate why what he says is even remotely true.

Mignini's own version, in his CNN interview, is that he himself illegally goaded Knox into speaking, even as Mignini had told the police to stop - stop, because Knox needed a lawyer, by Mignini's own admission.

Mignini thinks his "I'll act as if only a notary" gets him off the hook. So does Machiavelli.

The one thing Machiavell does is simply assert things, the one thing he does not do is even try to demonstrate why what he says is remotely true.

 

[Strozzi]

Well, I didn't mean publicly. If someone important made a formal complaint or had information concerning irregularities, such as a senator, the Department would check into it wouldn't they even if the public wouldn't be privy to that information?

The US Embassy would follow up any report they learned of about an American citizen being abused in police or prison custody. An official from the Consular Section, American Citizen Services Unit, visits all Americans in detention on a regular basis. They file reports to Washington and the family is kept informed, unless the American in detention refuses to authorize the Department of State to contact his/her family. The reports are of course confidential/classified in order to protect the American's privacy rights.

Three different officials in the US Embassy in Rome are probably following and reporting on this case.

1. Senior consular officers from the Consular Section's American Citizen Services unit meets with American citizens detained in Italy. This embassy official is concerned that the individual's human rights are being protected and that the individual has access to an attorney, medical care, family communications, etc.
2. An Embassy Political Section officer who covers Italian domestic/internal political issues will follow this case because it is of such a high profile and because enough has come to light as to reveal issues between different Italian agencies and interest groups: police, prosecution, court system, and media.
3. A very large embassy is likely to have a Legal Attache interfacing with the Italian Ministry of Justice. This may be a US Department of Justice offical (often an FBI official on assignment) who is in regular contact with Italian police and justice officials.
   

As I said earlier, some Italians may discuss this case with US diplomats and provide candid personal views of the views of their organization. This information would normally be be confidential or classified to protect the source and content.

The following information is from the website of the US Embassy in Rome:

The accused has the right to immediately consult with an attorney. S/he has also the right to an interpreter. Defense counsel's presence is mandatory during the interrogation of the accused and during all hearings. If the accused does not have an attorney, the public prosecutor’s office or the judge will appoint one (difensore di ufficio) from an available list of attorneys. The public prosecutor must give defense counsel at least 24 hours notice regarding any interrogation, inspection or cross-examination that involves the accused.

An American consular officer will visit any U.S. citizen in jail as soon as possible after his/her arrest. Consular officers cannot obtain a prisoner's release. A consular officer's responsibility is to ensure that the accused is receiving the same treatment that is accorded to anyone facing a similar charge in Italy, that the accused is receiving due process under Italian law, that s/he is not being discriminated against because s/he is American, that s/he is not being mistreated, and that s/he is being represented by an attorney of his/her choice. The consular officer will provide the accused with a list of attorneys from which the accused may select an attorney. It is the responsibility of the accused to reach an agreement with the attorney over fees and conditions of the defense. The U.S. Government and its consular officers are not authorized to meet prisoners' expenses, including attorney's fees.

 

[JREF2010]

But they had Amanda's very special lamp.

Here's another one that I just posted not long ago:

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=597&pictureid=8086[/qimg]

It is claimed that all visible traces of the footprint found with Luminol seen on the left were cleaned up. But the visible shoe print of Rudy Guede seen on the right is untouched. These two prints are in the same place. Look closely at the grout lines and you can match them up. How the hell could anybody do that?!

You always bring such great logical points, but will it be too much for a Quick View Fast Food Trial like Nencini's?

I doubt the Nencini Judges spent more than 5 hrs on the case reading, let alone had any background in forensics. You've spent years looking at it and discussing it.

The illness and vomiting will start when Nencini releases another guessing game report, of his FastFood Drive-Thru Court verdict. Will he include the Crini Poop motive or create his own? I will guess the latter, to save some face from embarrassment.

I can only guess how Nencini towered over everyone in the deliberation room, but thats another odd Italian thing, having the Judge in the deliberation room. We'll never know...

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

This is a perfect example of how Machiavelli thinks like a two year old. He's smoshing everything together as if it all has to happen at once. Like the claim that the same person cannot leave both bloody shoe prints in the hall and a bloody foot print on the mat. That is simply stupidity beyond belief. But that was Mignini's argument. Mignini was aparently arguing in front of a bunch of two year olds that didn't know better and he got away with it. Making that argument here makes Machiavelly look like the two year old. It's time to grow up Mach.

You should check out some of the cattle mutilation sites.

They follow the same kind of blinkered, puerile thought process. They aren't trying to prove what happened. They are trying to disprove the obvious explanation for what is shown in their photos, which is scavenging by rodents. No no no! It's gotta be something else, something complicated and mysterious, and here are all the many (stupid) reasons why...

 

[Bob001]

.....
Police questioned Harris over a period of 27 hours, during which Harris said she was threatened, pushed, called names and denied food, water and use of a bathroom.
.....

Seems like a good place to re-post links to the ACLU's "bust card:"

You have the constitutional right to remain silent. In
general, you do not have to talk to law enforcement officers (or
anyone else), ....

https://www.aclu.org/drug-law-refor...acial-justice/know-your-rights-what-do-if-you
https://www.aclu.org/files/kyr/kyr_english.pdf [printable pamphlet]
https://www.aclu.org/files/assets/aclu_kyr.pdf [printable wallet card]

 

[Bob001]

....
Three different officials in the US Embassy in Rome are probably following and reporting on this case.
...

I have never read anything that says when U.S. authorities first took notice of this case. When did Amanda or her parents first contact the embassy or consulate? Did she get any official advice from anybody before she was arrested (other than her mother telling her to get on the train to Germany)?

 

[HotNostril]

A few more than that, and a newbie just today not even on the list yet.

Bill Williams603
acbytesla470
Grinder 452
Diocletus415
Machiavelli403
Strozzi 367
Mary_H 309
AmyStrange254
RoseMontague250
Kaosium224
Dan O. 203
anglolawyer202
LondonJohn187
Chris_Halkides183
RandyN 182
Charlie Wilkes128
CoulsdonUK110
andreajo108
Rolfe 107
Poppy101697
JREF201093
Samson87
Antony 82
moodstream77
NancyS 75
MDDVS 74
Wildhorses74
davefoc 71
codyjuneau68
Vibio 59
kwill 57
Ampulla of Vater55
toto 53
Briars 53
katy_did51
Skind 50
RWVBWL46
bolint 43
moije2 42
GreyFox42
Matthew Best40
js202 38
The Central Scrutinizer38
Welshman36
bri1 35
Kestrel 35
christianahannah35
MichaelB34
snook1 34
Planigale34
Bob001 30
Kevin_Lowe29
Desert Fox28
GWCarver25
Caper 25
platonov 24
icerat 23
lionking 22
charlatan22
billyryan22
smkovalinksy21
yimyammer20
Katody Matrass18
LBR 18
tsig 17
Paninaro16
Dougm 16
michellesings14
lamasheen14
HumanityBlues12
griffinmill12
Nessie 11
lane99 11
Strawberry10
Magister10
moogspaceport9
LashL 9
Sergei Walankov8
Belz... 7
PhantomWolf7
HotNostril6
Darth Rotor6
babycondor5
TomG 5
stilicho 4
pilot padron4
NoahFence4
Teddy20074
Ogantai 4
BaileyBell4
e740JPH4
syllogism4
Bruce Fisher3
Arthur Wilson3
whoanellie3
Dr. Imago3
jhunter11633
Doghouse Reilly2
EeneyMinnieMoe2
Soapy Sam2
Methos 2
Onofarar2
spartacus2
Sonia 2
souldonut2
Loss Leader1
dudalb1
16.51
kcoh1
el buscador1
NewtonTrino1
angrysoba1
yeti1011
dogjones1
db24311
Jungle Jim1
Cain1
zooterkin1
wasapi1
Sherlock Holmes1
maddyalou1
Skeptic Ginger1
crescent1
misteratunta1
Wattson1
TofuFighter 1

And that is just the current thread

I'm on the above list and I believe Knox was treated fairly.

 

[acbytesla]

I'm on the above list and I believe Knox was treated fairly.

That's fine to hear. But the fact say differently Amanda was not allowed to see a lawyer for more than a week after being arrested.

That is in conflict with the US Embassy rules for treating American suspected of a crime. That alone shows that they weren't.

Strozzi posted them

The accused has the right to immediately consult with an attorney. S/he has also the right to an interpreter. Defense counsel's presence is mandatory during the interrogation of the accused and during all hearings. If the accused does not have an attorney, the public prosecutor’s office or the judge will appoint one (difensore di ufficio) from an available list of attorneys. The public prosecutor must give defense counsel at least 24 hours notice regarding any interrogation, inspection or cross-examination that involves the accused.

 

[HotNostril]

It's an ode to confusion, not some meticulously crafted and calculated sophistry. She was barely out of her teens! She was sitting in solitary being denied a lawyer and trying to explain what the stress, exhaustion, yelling, hitting and untruths she'd been told had done to her mind the night before.

At any rate you did at least notice the repeated ambiguity. There should be points for that even though it seems to come across as some sinister plot...


Back to the point. When being thrown into solitary and denied access to a lawyer is there any documentation that she was aware that this would be used against her in court?

I think she was more than happy to volunteer up her false accusations. I don't believe she was hit or tortured.

It's my opinion she believed she was smarter than everyone else and the bare bones of the story she concocted with RS would hold up. She was wrong. Their story rapidly unraveled under ordinary police interrogations.

She was not a stupid young woman but... like many before her...she overestimated her intelligence and ability to manipulate.

 

[HotNostril]

I am not sure if they are innocent or guilty. I change my mind every other day. It is that confusing to me. Some make the argument that since they were found guilty twice, that must mean they are beyond a reasonable doubt. It is a convincing argument. Now the U.S. State Department declares that there was no wrongdoing. However, a lot of it seems nearly impossible. No one has answered this question for me yet. How was it possible for them to wipe away their own DNA from the crime scene whilst leaving Guede's? I do not understand how this is possible.

IMO it's entirely possible that this started out as a prank. One similarly previously carried out by Knox here in the USA. They alone knew where exactly they were standing and what their respective roles were. How hard would it be to go back and clean those areas?
It appeared to me that the surfaces were cleaned, but not well enough, because traces did remain.

Something binds them and it isn't the "truth" .....it's the lies.

 

[kwill]

I think she was more than happy to volunteer up her false accusations. I don't believe she was hit or tortured.

It's my opinion she believed she was smarter than everyone else and the bare bones of the story she concocted with RS would hold up. She was wrong. Their story rapidly unraveled under ordinary police interrogations.

She was not a stupid young woman but... like many before her...she overestimated her intelligence and ability to manipulate.

And you have a right to your opinion, absolutely. How does it match up against the Catholic priest who met with her every week for four years? That's hundreds of times, hundreds of hours. Have you met Amanda Knox, even one time? Spent 10 minutes with her, ever? Five minutes? One minute?

The priest compares her to Nelson Mandela.

Honestly, how dare you make a character judgment about someone you don't know and never will?

 

[Bill Williams]

IMO it's entirely possible that this started out as a prank. One similarly previously carried out by Knox here in the USA. They alone knew where exactly they were standing and what their respective roles were. How hard would it be to go back and clean those areas?
It appeared to me that the surfaces were cleaned, but not well enough, because traces did remain.

Something binds them and it isn't the "truth" .....it's the lies.

So, let's get this straight. Someone who did not speak the language, whose only foray into the illicit side of life was an April Fools prank, and a party fopr which they were ticketed!.....

... outsmarts seasoned cops, in a foreign language!

Ok. That does not sound remotely possible.

Perhaps one might also want to address stomach contents - that this horrible event was over by 9:30 pm on the night in questions.

How hard would be be to go back and clean those areas? You may have missed the point - it is a clean which erases two of three DNA signatures!

 

[HotNostril]

Brave or foolhardy

Too little too late...it wouldn't benefit him now to turn on her.

In for a penny, in for a pound.

 

[Bill Williams]

I think she was more than happy to volunteer up her false accusations. I don't believe she was hit or tortured.

It's my opinion she believed she was smarter than everyone else and the bare bones of the story she concocted with RS would hold up. She was wrong. Their story rapidly unraveled under ordinary police interrogations.

She was not a stupid young woman but... like many before her...she overestimated her intelligence and ability to manipulate.

That's a strange opinion to hold.

You see the issue isn't, really, what her beliefs were. The issue is what the cops' beliefs were. They believed she, "buckled and told us what we already knew," and then they acted on that. They ran out and arrested the wrong man, on the confused word of a foreigner, struggling with the language. With a translator who said at trial she acted as a mediator.

 

[Desert Fox]

I think she was more than happy to volunteer up her false accusations. I don't believe she was hit or tortured.

Do you believe that innocent people never make false confessions?
Do you believe the only way they will do so is being struck or tortured?
Favorite US trick is to tell a person they failed the polygraph.
Of course, a polygraph is no more than smoke and mirrors itself.

 

[HotNostril]

Most others have covered most issues but there are quite a number of people who under questioning have made false confessions under questioning. I am extremely skeptical on any trial based on confessions.



If you never looked them up, really should look up the Norfolk Four

Except...it was not a confession, it was a false allegation against a man she knew was innocent and lies. Very common, run of the mill, deflection tactic made by guilty suspects all the time.

Same thing with her alibi that she was unable to stick to...RS wasn't able to consistently state "we went nowhere, we stayed in all night"

 

[Bill Williams]

Amanda Knox authority attacks Winterbottom's trailer for "The Face of an Angel"

This is how it works.

First - you create a myth out of whole cloth. Let's call that myth, "Foxy Knoxy".

Second - you then report on this myth that you created as if it is something factual.

Third - you pass on through the media uncritically what the prosecution tries to stick to this myth. Repeat steps one, two and three as necessary.

THEN - you monetize it. You make a film, where the journalists who did all this myth-making become the heroes for reporting the "truth", the very truth they created to begin with.

From Candace Dempsey:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/amanda-knox-author-blasts-salacious-677647

"It is hilarious to see reporters who made money on ‘Foxy Knoxy’ -- the caricature they created -- be recast as heroic truth-seekers horrified by the media circus and focused on the victim --if only," says Dempsey. "Not only were the colpevolisti (pro-guilt) journalists obsessed with Amanda and her family, but too often they typed up whatever nasty rumors police and prosecutors were putting out. Even the Times of London sometimes did that. Meanwhile, the bullying prosecutor Giuliano Mignini sued countless reporters for criticizing him."

 

[acbytesla]

I think she was more than happy to volunteer up her false accusations. I don't believe she was hit or tortured.

It's my opinion she believed she was smarter than everyone else and the bare bones of the story she concocted with RS would hold up. She was wrong. Their story rapidly unraveled under ordinary police interrogations.

She was not a stupid young woman but... like many before her...she overestimated her intelligence and ability to manipulate.

Why do you believe she wasn't hit? Because the police said they didn't? I can give you lots of examples where American police have hit and coerced false statements, false accusations and false statements from suspects. If it happens in the US, what makes you think that Italy is immune to such abuse?

And what story? That she remembered Patrick Lumumba killing Meredith? You know that this isn't true. So what part of their stories unraveled? Are you proud that police are able to coerce false statements? Because that story is clearly false.

And what about Raffaele's statement is false? That Amanda may have left while he was sleeping. How is that false? Other than logic later explains that unless Amanda is picking locks, it is impossible?

 

[Desert Fox]

It appeared to me that the surfaces were cleaned, but not well enough, because traces did remain.

Assuming you can do it without leaning any signs of cleaning, you rarely remember exactly where you touched.

Several people with a forensic background have told you that it is effectively impossible.

Perhaps you could show an accepted case where a crime scene was completely cleaned of the evidence of one or more persons while leaving the evidence of another behind? While you are at it, maybe you could show a case that is all even similar to what is proposed?

Fact is that lone individuals going into homes, raping and then killing a woman are pretty well known.

 

[Desert Fox]

Too little too late...it wouldn't benefit him now to turn on her.

In for a penny, in for a pound.

While we are in fantasy land, maybe the original prosecution is right and reading Harry Potter makes you a Satanist who likes to make ritual sacrifices.

No, the reason why he did not turn on her is that neither of them is guilty.
What I was saying is that he is either daring or foolhardy for going back to Italy.
Amanda would have been nuts to do it.