Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[andreajo]

As fascinating as it is to read about cases in other countries, does anyone have any examples of wrongful convictions within the Italian justice system that are comparable to what many say has happened to Raffaele and Amanda?

The Sarah Scazzi case has been mentioned a number of times in this thread. I don't know more about it than I have read here.

 

[Rolfe]

Where are the mods? Rolfe is constantly subverting the thread with veiled references to Lockerbie.

Yes, Dreyfus lay across a fault line between secular/republican and christian/monarchist France and one can see our case eventually having a similar effect across the left-right divide in Italy. We pro-innocence folk thus find ourselves aligned with the right, I think, which may not suit everybody. Still time to bail out and go over to the Dark Side I guess.

Oooh, better stop talking about the Norfolk Four as well.... And Dreyfus....

I don't entirely follow your assertion that the pro-innocence side in this case is "aligned with the right", though. Evidence? (Not that I'm exactly known for following political leads when making up my mind on such matters.)

Rolfe.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Odell Titsdale or Odell Titsworth, what does it matter

So, people who falsely confess do incriminate others who are likewise innocent, depending entirely on what the police want to hear. Anyone could come up with a long list of cases.

Charlie Wilkes,

To your list I wonder whether we could add Karl Fontenot and Tommy Ward. They named another accomplice whose name they did not get correct.

 

[anglolawyer]

Oooh, better stop talking about the Norfolk Four as well.... And Dreyfus....

I don't entirely follow your assertion that the pro-innocence side in this case is "aligned with the right", though. Evidence? (Not that I'm exactly known for following political leads when making up my mind on such matters.)

Rolfe.

I think we had agreed, or had it explained to us, that the magistracy running the panto over there was left wing. That makes us right wing. Simples. I have no better evidence than that.

 

[LondonJohn]

Charlie Wilkes,

To your list I wonder whether we could add Karl Fontenot and Tommy Ward. They named another accomplice whose name they did not get correct.

Another interesting comparator.

I think that it's entirely relevant to be examining US/UK instances of coerced false confessions/accusations, for three main reasons:

1) These countries obviously share many similarities with Italy in terms of industrialisation and democratisation. They would probably be invalid comparator countries if we were looking at a case in (say) Central African Republic or Burma, but I consider that Italy is similar enough to render the comparison valid and relevant.

2) There's a certain universality to the way in which coercive authority figures can force people to say/do things that on the face of it would seem utterly illogical and self-incriminating for a truly innocent person to say/do.

3) In my opinion, the US and UK are both far better (not perfect, but far better) at identifying, remedying and publicising these sorts of miscarriage of justice than is Italy. If that's true, then by definition we are going to know about many more such cases from the US and UK than from Italy. To me, the Italian criminal justice system looks to be so institutionally broken and unfit-for-purpose that it's extremely likely that there are a significant number of as-yet-undiscovered miscarriages of justice within the system.

 

[LondonJohn]

I think we had agreed, or had it explained to us, that the magistracy running the panto over there was left wing. That makes us right wing. Simples. I have no better evidence than that.

Yes: according to Machiavelli, this political tribalism appears to have a massive influence on how justice is administered in Italy.

Of course, in a properly-functioning democracy, the administration of justice is entirely colour-blind to political affiliations, personal doctrines or interpersonal relationships. These factors may have an effect on how legislation is formulated and passed into law, but should never have any influence on how that legislation is practised and administered.

Only in tinpot regimes (possibly those with legacies of Fascism and Marxism-Communism, and/or where organised crime has a foothold in large parts of the country) would the actual application of criminal justice be susceptible to adverse influence from political affiliations and so on. Oh, hang on...........

 

[Bill Williams]

OK. What was the dream? I want to know the details before I will believe it. Provided it's a credible dream then fine, it should stand as conclusive proof of his story. Put him under the lights and start pulling his toenails out, then his teeth, until he squeals.

Don't bother asking, A.L. The guilter fall back position is the even though it was R.E.M. sleep, Mignini did not actually dream because of tight budgetary reasons.

What I want to know from Mach is why it is not theft when Rudy robbed a corpse.

 

[Bill Williams]

Another biased whinge from Vogt:

http://www.theweek.co.uk/europe/amanda-knox/57202/knox-and-sollecito-justice-revisited-prime-time


It must be immensely painful for Vogt to have come to the sad realisation that no major media outlet wants to buy her reports on this case, and that instead she must make do with the crumbs of a moribund under-the-radar publication and her own website. Perhaps if her journalism had balance, integrity and talent, she might be able to make a living from it.

I wonder if she really thinks she's channeling Woodward and Bernstein and is simply the victim of some sort of vast obstructive conspiracy among the mainstream media? Or whether she's at least intelligent enough to realise that she doesn't cut it as an investigative journalist? Either way, don't give up the day job, Andrea.......

All the while the "approximate reporter", which is what Machiavelli called Barbie Nadeau, has been successful in monetizing this..... must eat Vogt alive!

Winterbottom never asked Andrea for her comprehensive theory. Barbie didn't have one either so the libretto is about the journalists themselves! !!

Speaking of which, the trailer is out and it mentions "sex on a train".

This game of whack-a-mole factoids is eternal.....

 

[Sergei Walankov]

In Britain, it's very much the right-wing media that's baying for Knox's blood, fuelled as always by nationalistic chauvinism. Whereas the liberal press, namely The Guardian and The Independent, is highly sympathetic to Knox, correctly seeing her persecution as a feminist issue. But in Italy, the left can only view the case through the prism of its anti-Americanism.

 

[Skind]

If if it was me, that's the only thing I would would want to talk about, and I would never let an opportunity pass to affirm my alibi. They don't do the most obvious thing, which makes me very suspicious.

And you'd find yourself very quickly coming under suspicion by people such as yourself for talking about nothing else. Any minor discrepancy would be pounced on.

You'd also find yourself running out of people willing to interview such a dull, boring, repetitive interviewee.

 

[Skind]

Why is that?

Dunno - In what interviews have they actually been asked about it explicitly?

 

[Rolfe]

I think if anyone in a situation like this was constantly banging on about where they say they were when the crime took place, and that was one of the disputed points of the case, you'd get a lot of people declaring that they found that monomania really suspicious.

If I was Amanda I'd be banging on about how the post mortem results showed that Meredith had been killed soon after she returned home, and most certainly before the car broke down outside the cottage. And yet I was originally convicted on the basis of a time of death close to midnight!

But hey, what do I know? I'd probably be putting my head in a noose saying that, according to some people.

Rolfe.

 

[Skind]

So when you're innocent of murder, and sentenced to 25 years, and facing an extradition fight, and also improbably have people lining up to interview you, you're going to assume the general public has read your book to explain what you were doing on the night of the murder?

Personally, I'd want to cover the evidence, or lack of it, rather than my alibi.

Stating my alibi relies on people believing me in order to be effective, and always brings up the questions about proof.

You can cut through all this by talking about the evidence first. If the evidence is weak, your alibi doesn't matter.

Stating your alibi is a high risk move (it will be heavily inspected), for little benefit (anyone who doesn't believe your alibi won't believe the subsequent discussion of the evidence) and it's unlikely to convert anyone. Also, it's exactly what you'd expect a guilty person trying to appear innocent would do.

So, it appears Knox and Sollecito don't repeatedly state their alibis for the simple reason that they're not stupid and they understand interviews better than you do.

 

[GreyFox]

To the recording dispute...
Is there an example where the Perugia police used recording during interrogation for other people?
I mean not bugging, but interrogation where the interrogators are also heard, as in the Mignini interrogations in the jail.

Don't you think that the amount of wiretaps used (39,000) shows how bad they wanted to get these two to talk about the murder. Yet they have ... nothing .
Mignini didn't say that they don't record interrogations as your suggesting ? In fact he said in his CNN interview that they did not record the Interrogation due to budget constraints.

So you want us to believe that of all the time and money spent on this (39,000 wiretaps) and the one time they crack and say what the PLE need for a conviction... the recorder wasn't running ????

Makes as much sense as them having the capability to remove all but Guedes DNA on a spur of the moment Random rape/killing .

The whole case is built on R.E.M sleep (dreams) of the prosecutor who foolishly announced to the press that the case was closed when he still didn't have the DNA results that told a different story.

 

[Bob001]

.....
Are there any comparable cases where there was a murder involving multiple assailants where they successfully remove the traces of all but one person? Can it actually be done in a short time frame? Make most sense just to clean it all up.
.....

How would that even be possible? If more than one person was in the same place at the same time, you might identify, say, shoe prints, but how would you separate fingerprints, blood, DNA, hairs, clothing fibers, etc., etc. and eradicate some but leave others? The allegation that Amanda and Raffaele cleaned up their own traces with a mop and bucket and left Guede's is truly delusional.

 

[Dan O.]

Thank you, I did not have this document.
I'm reading it.
-------------------
Added:

Now I've read the relevant parts.
Not much details in the whole text, but it seems that at 21:26 Naruto crashed after a few moments of viewing.
So at best it may prove the last interaction at 21:26.

Where is this factoid coming from? If Naruto crashed it should have been noted in the postals report along with the VLC crashes that occured at about 05:30 (Massei 327). They missed the opening of Naruto because the Encase doesn't look at the finder metadata.

 

[Grinder]

Thank you, I did not have this document.
I'm reading it.
-------------------
Added:

Now I've read the relevant parts.
Not much details in the whole text, but it seems that at 21:26 Naruto crashed after a few moments of viewing.
So at best it may prove the last interaction at 21:26.

So that would mean that Amanda went alone if she was on the video, BUT she and Raf were together in the plaza as per Curatolo at 9:27-8.

Are you dropping Curatolo?

 

[Skind]

You're entitled to your opinion. My bet is that they both worked with experts on giving interviews and my bet is that they were told. "Be yourself and answer the questions that are put to you."

My guess is their experts are more knowledgeable than you or me.

Yes, maybe the might have had access to a PR company of some sort.....

 

[Bob001]

To me, the Italian criminal justice system looks to be so institutionally broken and unfit-for-purpose that it's extremely likely that there are a significant number of as-yet-undiscovered miscarriages of justice within the system.

To what degree does it warp Italian justice to have a judge sitting on the jury? Are ordinary citizens prepared to challenge and contradict a judge in deliberations? Or does the judge pretty much decide the jury verdict?

 

[Rolfe]

Guess....

Rolfe.