Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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Can we please lay off the Italy-bashing? Yes, the recent ISC decision was atrocious. Yes, other recent decisions have been atrocious. So too have been multiple botched court outcomes in Australia, and in the USA, and in Canada and in the UK.

None of us get to throw stones as far as I'm concerned. The recent attacks on Italy are ugly, verge on racism and add nothing of value to the conversation.

I'm of two minds on this. From an empirical POV, you're right. Nothing says "witch hunt" quite like the McMartin Preschool case. They brought in backhoes to dig up non-existent satanic tunnels per the guidance of 3-year-olds. In California, in the late 20th Century.

So, there's that... and I know about it.

But, it seems to me the main point of this travesty in Florence was to protect the pride and honor of the Italian justice system. Certainly that has been a point of emphasis for many Italians who pushed to uphold the convictions. I'm inclined to react. I'll keep your admonition in mind. But can you really blame me?
 
NO!

Italians own the ISC. Italians are guilty of accepting a 60 year old pervert for raping a 11 year old. But please feel free to present a case for Italians ignoring this abhorrent behavior.

News articles? Mass protests in the streets? Anything?

Look when pigs pretend to be human and you wish to defend their right to do so...feel free. Silently pretending that unacceptable behavior is not happening is not a correct response at this point.

ISC hell...what about Mattini, Massei...even Hellmanns perverted convolution?

Sure lots of evil in the world...no matter. To not place blame where it belongs (that would be the silent sheeple of Italy BTW) is shortsighted and apologetic much like Englands Chamberlain hope that Hitler was going to keep his promises..."Peace in Our Time"

Really? Sorry....wake up! Its been 6 years. 6 years of abusive process and a country that seems to be ignorant or uncaring about truth or honesty or even the morals about sex with a 11 year old. Why would you wish to to speak out against this? ( or rather remain silent which seems to be your point)

Please I'm confused. In fact any partner of Italy should also suffer the consequences of the foolishness and corrupt acts of the law of the land in Italy. I disagree that attacking Italy is pointless. Rather there is no point hiding their behavior or pretending it is acceptable.

Its shameful and there are numerous examples of a disinterested low principled rot in the whole society. I defend my position by the lack of protest of a 60 year old being given consideration for love in regards to the rape of a 11 year old girl. Please feel free to defends the Italian reaction.

I say they are morally deficient.

Now list the cases where a whole country like OZ or USA etc get behind a farce as clear as the two I have laid out...RS/Ak and 60 yr old pervert? We can ignore the Scazzi, earthquake scientists, and that clumsy ship captain.

Cite the politicians demanding investigations. The newspapers doing an investigation (really how hard would that be in this matter...be honest) Anything?

How quickly did the 60 year old disappear from the news? Huh? Oh OK. Justin Beaver was a distraction in the news.

To be fair the big news when this came out was about the former race car driver that was seriously injured followed by Beiberhead.

Still, regarding Sabrina and Cosima and the Murder of Avetrana case, no motivation (now 10 months) and still in custody as far as I know. The lawyers said the would appeal to the ISC but I have not heard the result of that one. Just an occasional opinion article is all I have seen. There should be some outrage on that case, in my opinion.

Italians know what a shambles the justice system is in. There was a recent address by one of the justice big wigs bemoaning the backlog of cases and the money the Italian system has had to pay out for these "preventive detentions" that continue to rise at an alarming rate when those in jail are found to be not guilty or the charges simply expire.

Both the money and the man hours spent just on the Meredith Kercher case are a good example of what is wrong with the system. The first level trial seems to me to be almost always for guilt. The level of proof beyond a reasonable doubt is not supposed to be lower but the reality is what it is.

Until the Italian people make enough noise the system will not change. Getting them to care about a case that does not relate to them or theirs appears to be the main issue. I really think this is directly related to the way journalists and news reporting in Italy is threatened by lawsuits.

Just my opinion.
 
In addition, it appears highly likely that the defence teams would have actually damaged their case significantly in the eyes of Nencini's court by arguing for a sole attacker (Guede): if Nencini's court had already decided, via the SC ruling, that there were multiple assailants, then it almost certainly would have viewed all defence "sole-assailant" arguments as invalid on their faces. It sounds like Nencini somehow expected the defence teams to say something like: "The two other assailants were not Knox or Sollecito, and here's evidence that instead they were Mr X and Mr Y". I suspect therefore that the defence arguments - correct in fact - for Guede as sole assailant not only fell on deaf ears (which would be bad enough), but also probably served to destroy the defence's credibility in Nencini's eyes.
Or the defence teams could have said something like …..yes there is evidence to suggest that there may have been others involved, this could have been proved by testing the sperm sample that could have yielded more DNA evidence (perhaps more than there ever was to implicate Raffaele), but you did not bother to test so the opportunity is lost. There also is the question of the now destroyed additional DNA on the bra-clasp that implicates two other males if the evidence is to be interpreted in the same way it was with Raffaele.

So if you take into account that there is no evidence now against Amanda whatsoever and the evidence against Raffaele is totally discredited all you have left is the evidence that either the court refused to examine (the alleged sperm sample) and the now destroyed additional DNA evidence on the bra-clasp so the opportunity was there for the prosecution to evaluate further DNA evidence their failure to do so (IMHO) was to implicate Amanda and Raffaele and no-one else!

One wonders if the unidentified DNA on the bra-clasp was greater that the alleged sample of Meredith on the knife! If so, what were to prosecutions reasons for ignoring that DNA in favour of pursuing the much more flimsy evidence of Meredith on the knife...other than cherry-picking!
 
I’ve been reading Steve Moore’s article on double jeopardy. It raised a few question in my mind.

If double jeopardy exists as he says it does then surely Amanda is clearly feeling it’s effects right at this moment. In fact surely the double jeopardy came into play as soon as the recent trial was endorsed by the Italian Supreme Court in March 2013. Since she has now been found guilty then surely the double jeopardy is more clearly defined.

The point that I am trying to make is that the US government should not wait until Italy applies for extradition to make a judgement on whether double jeopardy is an issue or not. They need to make it clear where they stand regarding the double jeopardy laws in Amanda’s case simply because she is feeling that threat and jeopardy right at this present time, therefore if the laws exist to protect her she should be informed of this by the action of her lawyers! Any delay in this matter exacerbates the jeopardy and puts her under needless fear!

I’m a Brit so I am not sure how these thing work over there but surely the relevant government department can be lobbied to take urgent steps to safeguard the rights of one of its own citizens! Not to do so may imply that the double jeopardy laws do not apply in this case inviting more negative comment and speculation. On the other hand if the double jeopardy laws do not offer her protection, she has the right to know promptly so that her lawyers can prepare her for the possibility of extradition regardless of how tough that will be. Waiting only prolongs the agony in this case. Your government needs to be decisive one way or the other!

Hoots!
 
I don't know whether De Felice made the "buckled" quote in English, or whether he said it in Italian and it was then translated into English.

However, what I DO know is that it is hugely unlikely that a national newspaper would invent (or even falsely embellish) a directly-attributed quote made by a named individual in a high position of authority. They simply have too much to lose from doing so - not only in terms of legal action, but also in terms of future relationships with authority institutions (in this case, the Italian State Police). I therefore tend to strongly believe that De Felice actually did say these words or their direct Italian equivalents.

Newspapers invent quotes sometimes, but only if they are put into the mouths of relatively powerless (and usually demonised) people, and where the invented quotes do not make any potentially-libellous accusations. But neither of these applies to the De Felice quote. He really said it.
He made the statement in Italian and I am satisfied, having spoken to one of the reporters who recorded what he said, of the accuracy of that record and of the translation.
 
I'm of two minds on this. From an empirical POV, you're right. Nothing says "witch hunt" quite like the McMartin Preschool case. They brought in backhoes to dig up non-existent satanic tunnels per the guidance of 3-year-olds. In California, in the late 20th Century.

So, there's that... and I know about it.

But, it seems to me the main point of this travesty in Florence was to protect the pride and honor of the Italian justice system. Certainly that has been a point of emphasis for many Italians who pushed to uphold the convictions. I'm inclined to react. I'll keep your admonition in mind. But can you really blame me?

Not sure about the US, which is after all 50 separate criminal jurisdictions, doubtless of variable quality, but I believe my system to be far superior to the Italian variant. I can certainly think of some poor court of appeal decisions of ours but nothing close to the ISC's hypocritical, pseudo-intellectual and intellectually dishonest reversal of Hellman, to mention just one of many particularly Italian problems the proceedings have thrown up.
 
Not sure about the US, which is after all 50 separate criminal jurisdictions, doubtless of variable quality, but I believe my system to be far superior to the Italian variant. I can certainly think of some poor court of appeal decisions of ours but nothing close to the ISC's hypocritical, pseudo-intellectual and intellectually dishonest reversal of Hellman, to mention just one of many particularly Italian problems the proceedings have thrown up.

Just observing Machs posts, there seems to be some save face at all costs feeling deeply rooted in the national psyche.

I'm reminded of the reporter that traveled to....ummm....whereever the Boston bomber was from in Russia... The reporter spoke about how everyone was thoroughly convinced the bombers were set up and how the bombing was a CIA plot... I just couldn't believe how collectively blind such a large group of people can be... and that's how I kind of view Italy right now... In large part collectively blind. Sure there are travesties of justice in every country.... The Norfolk Four is one of the worst I've seen in modern justice... and I guess that case had the sort of collective blindness I'm talking about... at least in law enforcement... But it didn't seem to stretch across the nation like the Knox case.
 
Can we please lay off the Italy-bashing? Yes, the recent ISC decision was atrocious. Yes, other recent decisions have been atrocious. So too have been multiple botched court outcomes in Australia, and in the USA, and in Canada and in the UK.

None of us get to throw stones as far as I'm concerned. The recent attacks on Italy are ugly, verge on racism and add nothing of value to the conversation.

Its hard to do that at times, because this is an Italy legal system...

But it was Hellman and the courtroom of Italians that also acquitted.

The likes of Monica Napoleoni and Fathead Mignini abusing some of the Italian anti-freedom of speech laws are hard to grasp, so Italy needs to address this bs bullying law who allows shutting down websites and the like or filing charges against so many people because they simply speak their opinion.
So some Italy bashing seems a wake up call and is needed. The witch hunt type approach is absurd, the likes of Edgardo Giobbi shouldnt be in office, if the likes of him can say what he said on film and the Italian Govt finds that ok...maybe more bashing is needed?
 
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Not sure about the US, which is after all 50 separate criminal jurisdictions, doubtless of variable quality, but I believe my system to be far superior to the Italian variant. I can certainly think of some poor court of appeal decisions of ours but nothing close to the ISC's hypocritical, pseudo-intellectual and intellectually dishonest reversal of Hellman, to mention just one of many particularly Italian problems the proceedings have thrown up.

The English speaking system IMO does a far better job of diminishing the chances of convicting an innocent person and of protecting the process against outside influence. Not to say that those don't happen in the English-speaking system, but overall that system is much better.
 
Can we please lay off the Italy-bashing? Yes, the recent ISC decision was atrocious. Yes, other recent decisions have been atrocious. So too have been multiple botched court outcomes in Australia, and in the USA, and in Canada and in the UK.

None of us get to throw stones as far as I'm concerned. The recent attacks on Italy are ugly, verge on racism and add nothing of value to the conversation.

A noble and rational suggestion, which we can see has been immediately rejected by some.....
 
A noble and rational suggestion, which we can see has been immediately rejected by some.....

My suggestion would be to focus on the evidence in the case rather than taking pot shots at people making comments.

I think we get along well enough to discuss the evidence if you want to.
 
Pardon me, but I find this about as logical as Bill Clinton's quibbling about the definition of the word is when he needed to distract attention from his sexual abuse of an intern.
Consensual act between two adults. If you wish to suggest he abused his position as president, there are other threads for that. What you stated there is inaccurate.
What difference does it make ?????............
unless you simply cannot accept fact that Knox is a twice convicted murderer:(
That is also inaccurate. It appears they she was convicted for one murder, once. The rest has been an appeals process.

A noble and rational suggestion, which we can see has been immediately rejected by some.....
Regret to disagree with you, amigo. Kevin added "racist" to a bash based on nationalism/chauvinism. He thus weakened a valid appeal to knock off the Italy bashing. (I concur with the appeal). Italian is not a race.

@RandyN
A suggestion: breathe.
Dragging in the case about the old man and the 11 year old muddies the waters regarding a case that has to do with young adults and murder.
 
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This is a good reason I support efforts like Injustice Anywhere. A careful examination of the evidence in these cases should be something that anybody that is concerned about wrongful convictions should look into. Some of these folks could really use the support of people that have made such an examination and believe the conviction was not just. Hope to see you join this effort soon.
 
Part III

"The enormous prison population in the United States partly reflects harsh sentencing practices contrary to international law, Human Rights Watch said today in its World Report 2013. The sentencing practices include disproportionately long prison terms, mandatory sentencing without parole, and treating youth offenders as adults. The US maintains the world’s largest incarcerated population, at 1.6 million, and its highest per capita incarceration rate.

Human Rights Watch research in 2012 found that the massive overincarceration includes a growing number of elderly people whom prisons are ill-equipped to handle, and an estimated 93,000 youth under age 18 in adult jails and another 2,200 in adult prisons. Hundreds of children are subjected to solitary confinement. Racial and ethnic minorities remain disproportionately represented in the prison population.

"The United States has shown little interest in tackling abusive practices that have contributed to the country’s huge prison population,” said Maria McFarland, deputy US program director at Human Rights Watch. "Unfortunately, it is society’s most vulnerable – racial and ethnic minorities, low-income people, immigrants, children, and the elderly – who are most likely to suffer from injustices in the criminal justice system."


http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/01/31/us-injustices-filling-prisons
 
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Seriously, Vibio. What is your opinion about allowing people who have a monetary interest in a guilty finding to participate in the part of the legal proceedings where guilt is decided? Do you think that this could interfere with a defendant's right to a fair trial?
 
Even more reason to advocate for reform and innocence. Presently I am following two cases in the US, two in Italy, and one in Canada which I am convinced the accused are innocent. It is one thing to point out problems and another to join in an effort to do something about those problems.
 
Nencini's post-verdict remarks - if reported correctly - appear to show the root cause of the convictions. They also appear to have massive relevance to any upcoming ECHR application.

What Nencini appears to have said is along these lines: the SC tells us that two other people were involved in the murder (in addition to Guede). We (Nencini's court) accept this unconditionally. Our job was therefore to establish whether these two other people were Knox and Sollecito, or whether there was credible evidence of two other people being involved. If we had decided that two other people (i.e. other than Knox and Sollecito) were the two other assailants, we would have had to show compelling evidence to support that hypothesis. We had no such evidence. We could only therefore conclude that the only reasonable conclusion is that two other assailants were Knox and Sollecito.

If that's a correct interpretation of Nencini's remarks, then it looks like exceptionally strong grounds for a successful ECHR application right there.

As more becomes known about how Nencini's panel of judges/lay-judges worked, it's not only this. I believe you are correct, that Nencini instructed the other seven panel members on what the ISC stipulated... so that every time the defence brought up the unlikelihood of multiple attackers, Nencini and the other seven would go back and say, "well, they just wasted our time - we've already been directed to find multiple attackers."

There's more. Now, all the caveats need to be put into place about Nencini talking to reporters... like Hellmann in the days following the acquittals.

Nencini also reports that one of the lay judges came to him quite confused. She was being confused by everything she was seeing on television.

WTF!?

Now before Machiavelli drops in to give us a lecture on the role of the lay-juror, apparently they are there to vote with their feelings and overall "osmotic" sense of what this case is about, complete with conversations over dinner with family, coffee with friends, and perhaps even what the priest says about the case at confession. I guess in this way the lay-judges "represent the community".

This is what is so hard for North Americans to understand. In our system, this would have got that woman kicked off the jury. We have sequestering, we have instructions to refrain from discussing the case even amongst fellow panel-members until the cases have been completely rendered.

Yet here, at least according to Nencini - meditated through a newspiece so all cautions should be in place - a juror is basically asking, in my mind, how she should vote.

Given that Nencini also hedged on if this had been a unanimous verdict, there's this nightmare scenario that this was a 5-3 vote. Do the math on that one.
 
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