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Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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How could highest court in Italy get this soooo wrong

Did the Court examine the endless stomach arguments promulgated in prolific rambling diatribes here ??

Did the Court ever get a timeline that FOA fanatics incessantly whined about wanting from any poster who had dared dish up doubts about "the Angel's" innocence.

Did the Court overlook the absolute credibility of each of the many varied (and endlessly varying) explanations that Knox and Raffie proffered for their innocence ??

Did the Court pay any heed to the pricey public relations avalanche paid for by FOA ?

As I glance over recent posts here today, the significant silence from all the previously most verbose FOA fanatics seems to say all that needs to be said.

Finally, too bad Raffie's 'hiking trip' to the border of a Country he hope to escape to was interrupted by Police.
And his hope to have a quickie green card marriage was also foiled.
Those efforts also speak volumes, don't they?:cool:
 
Amazing isn't it, over 4 pages and 200 posts since certain posters claimed that those that believe in innocence would not change their minds if shown the evidence, and in response were challenged to show that evidence. Strangely those posters have posted a number of times since them, but in response to the challenge, something that should be extremely easy and I bet anyone here could do for the JFK Assassination, Apollo Moon landings, or 9/11 attacks, there has been nothing but crickets for those that believe in guilt. Amazing isn't it.

What is missed is that most of us are convinced by evidence, and if they laid it out in a legitimate way we'd switch.

I'm still waiting. Whenever someone points to "weird behaviour" but doesn't address that it's Rudy alone in the room, then they've lost me. Whenever someone says motive is not important, then goes off on pooh, jealousy, ritualistic rites, or sex games or psychopathology they've lost me.

All the while claiming motive is not important.

It should be easy to lay out a case, yet every time someone tries, they have to reinvent it. That's not so bad, really on an obscure forum like this - because we here influence no one, not even ourselves.

What is telling, so far every time a judicial authority in Italy expresses a guilty view, they have to reinvent the crime. My guess is that Nencini will too.

How do you defend yourself from this ever changing set of allegations, which you only find out about after you're convicted?
 
So how does the extradition process work?

I know America doesn’t extradite armed forces personnel or those working for a government agencies like the CIA, what of normal everyday citizens?

Does a judge actually get the court documents or the final ruling of a given case?

Does the Secretary of State office get involved in all extradition requests?

Is the Department of Justice involved in the process?

Does anyone know how many extradition cases America has turned down in recent years?

What happens if Italy doesn’t request extradition, but requests Amanda serves her time in an American jail, is the process different?

I don't think the process is judicial. In a case where there has been a conviction overseas, the treaty provides for a political response to an extradition request. Here is the treaty from which I would quote but the darn document resists copy and paste. Here is a screen shot of clause X 5 instead.



Note the word 'executive'. Then there is this safeguard in clause XI 1:



Note the words 'requirements of this treaty'. What are these? Reassuringly, the preamble suggests there is a 'probable cause' requirement (in article 10). That would be good if it applied here but, as far as I can see, it does not. True, sub-para 3 of article 10 (in fact X) refers to the need to show a reasonable basis for belief in guilt, but that article applies pre-conviction.



Post-conviction, however, the position is different:



There is no reference to para. 3 of article 10, only to the documents enumerated in paragraph 2 which means the probable cause requirement does not apply to requests against already-convicted persons.

The treaty purports to impose an obligation to extradite:



but it nowhere says that upon satisfaction of specified conditions the requested state must extradite. On the contrary it merely obliges any refusal to be accompanied by reasons (thus implying that refusal is permissible even if all conditions have been satisfied since no need for a decision arises until they have been):



So the way I read it, the treaty leaves much in the realm of politics and, in this case, not so much in the judicial sphere, although I don't doubt there will be case law on the interpretation of the application of the treaty to already-convicted persons since I imagine the decisions of executive organs of the US are themselves subject to judicial oversight. So you could have an executive decision to extradite judicially overridden and referred back. We (or many of us) may well be dead before it's all over.
 
Did the Court examine the endless stomach arguments promulgated in prolific rambling diatribes here ??

Did the Court ever get a timeline that FOA fanatics incessantly whined about wanting from any poster who had dared dish up doubts about "the Angel's" innocence.

Did the Court overlook the absolute credibility of each of the many varied (and endlessly varying) explanations that Knox and Raffie proffered for their innocence ??

Did the Court pay any heed to the pricey public relations avalanche paid for by FOA ?

As I glance over recent posts here today, the significant silence from all the previously most verbose FOA fanatics seems to say all that needs to be said.

Finally, too bad Raffie's 'hiking trip' to the border of a Country he hope to escape to was interrupted by Police.
And his hope to have a quickie green card marriage was also foiled.
Those efforts also speak volumes, don't they?:cool:

Not really.

I haven't noticed what you have noticed. Most pro-innocence folk seem still to be posting since yesterday. The answer to your first three questions will likely be 'no'. We shall see when the motivation comes out. I make a sportsman's bet with you that will take more than 90 days. Shake?
 
I'm slightly interested on whether there is a constraint on Italian defence lawyers not to go all out to defend their clients if doing so would involve criticising the police or the forensics or simply the "establishment view".

The defence in this case seems to have been very light on the specific points I would have imagined would have been the most likely to lead to acquittals. Did they simply not understand these points, or were they inhibited from pursuing them as a result of internal Italian legal politics?

On the other hand, and I have noticed this in at least one other case, there seems to be a preference for simply sowing doubt, over going wholeheartedly for a single, exculpatory theory of the crime. Sometimes it's almost as if the defence don't want anything to be firmed up, so that they can obfuscate and waffle. However that can blow up in their faces very easily.

I wonder if, once this is all past the final stage, Bongiorno and/or dalla Vedova will go to the press and comment that there was so much evidence against their clients that couldn't be explained away, they were really on a hiding to nothing?

Rolfe.
I was under the impression that the defence lawyers were constrained by defamation laws. Wasn't Amanda sued for defamation when she said she was cuffed on the head? That is another aspect of the unfairness of the proceedings. In my jurisdiction defendants may not lie in the witness box but what they say in the trial is absolutely privileged. Accusations may be freely made without fear. Likewise with the lawyers who can accuse anybody of anything with impunity. The reasons are obvious and are well illustrated in this case. They were framed but the lawyers were unable to say so.

The effect of these and other rules is pernicious. The absence of an unqualified right to disclosure obliges the defence lawyer to justify it. The justification might entail an insinuation of fraud and corruption and that may be the only real justification there is. I believe the defence lawyers may have been baulked by this problem when applying for the raw data, for example. In a system in which the right was unqualified there would be no such difficulty, quite apart from the question of privilege.
 
Stephanie Kercher delivered this.
Amanda Knox will critically analyse her creative writing skills.

"But the verdict has been upheld this time so we hope that ... we are nearer the end so that we can just start to remember Meredith for who she was and draw a line under it, as it were."
 
Did the Court examine the endless stomach arguments promulgated in prolific rambling diatribes here ??
...
If you think this case is going down in the books as anything but a massive miscarriage of justice... I'd like to have some of what you're smokin'. Even the WM3 and CP5 have their detractors though so it's not a big shocker that some can't abandon prior positions tenaciously held against all logic and reason.
 
The saddest part about this case is that Amanda and Raffaele were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. They became suspects simply because they were the first people to enter the cottage after Meredith was killed. If they had gone straight to the festival they were planning to attend they would never have become suspects.
 
Rejoice ??

I note by the way that the BBC line this morning was leading with the family of Meredith Kercher welcomed the verdict, but then went on to say that while Italy may attempt to extradite Knox "at some stage" (they didn't mention anything about Cazzione still having to rule on it), the consensus was that it was extremely unlikely an extradition request would be successful.

Rolfe.

Maybe I am missing something:confused:

After *full* legal process, just verdict and a reasonable sentence was rendered

Are you now suggesting that all law abiding citizens throughout the world should now rejoice with you about extradition technicalities ??
Rejoice that a twice convicted murderess will possibly escape the reasonable jail term that she was rightfully sentenced to ??
Rejoice that a drug addled spoiled brat goes unpunished for horrendously murdering Meredith Kercher?

Really ??:rolleyes:
 
The saddest part about this case is that Amanda and Raffaele were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. They became suspects simply because they were the first people to enter the cottage after Meredith was killed. If they had gone straight to the festival they were planning to attend they would never have become suspects.
I beg to differ. I think Meredith was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
 
Maybe I am missing something:confused:

After *full* legal process, just verdict and a reasonable sentence was rendered

Are you now suggesting that all law abiding citizens throughout the world should now rejoice with you about extradition technicalities ??
Rejoice that a twice convicted murderess will possibly escape the reasonable jail term that she was rightfully sentenced to ??
Rejoice that a drug addled spoiled brat goes unpunished for horrendously murdering Meredith Kercher?

Really ??:rolleyes:
I am happy to be the first to tediously request you explain what they did and when, after all the computer started at 9 26 and she was dead by 10pm.
(prosecutor said this)
 
Maybe I am missing something:confused:

After *full* legal process, just verdict and a reasonable sentence was rendered

Are you now suggesting that all law abiding citizens throughout the world should now rejoice with you about extradition technicalities ??
Rejoice that a twice convicted murderess will possibly escape the reasonable jail term that she was rightfully sentenced to ??
Rejoice that a drug addled spoiled brat goes unpunished for horrendously murdering Meredith Kercher?

Really ??:rolleyes:

Law abiding citizens allover the world who have seen the "evidence" used to convict are not impressed by these convictions. The evidence actually shows inocennce, not guilt.

It's not surprising though, considering Italy's record of human rights violations.
 
I don't think the process is judicial. In a case where there has been a conviction overseas, the treaty provides for a political response to an extradition request. Here is the treaty from which I would quote but the darn document resists copy and paste. Here is a screen shot of clause X 5 instead.

[qimg]http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy57/cwismayer/ScreenShot2014-01-31at113918_zps4228ff0d.png[/qimg]

Note the word 'executive'. Then there is this safeguard in clause XI 1:

[qimg]http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy57/cwismayer/ScreenShot2014-01-31at114036_zps64b59d77.png[/qimg]

Note the words 'requirements of this treaty'. What are these? Reassuringly, the preamble suggests there is a 'probable cause' requirement (in article 10). That would be good if it applied here but, as far as I can see, it does not. True, sub-para 3 of article 10 (in fact X) refers to the need to show a reasonable basis for belief in guilt, but that article applies pre-conviction.

[qimg]http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy57/cwismayer/ScreenShot2014-01-31at115311_zpsd0ffa0ac.png[/qimg]

Post-conviction, however, the position is different:

[qimg]http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy57/cwismayer/ScreenShot2014-01-31at115533_zpsbe96de49.png[/qimg]

There is no reference to para. 3 of article 10, only to the documents enumerated in paragraph 2 which means the probable cause requirement does not apply to requests against already-convicted persons.

The treaty purports to impose an obligation to extradite:

[qimg]http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy57/cwismayer/ScreenShot2014-01-31at120004_zps25abc4b2.png[/qimg]

but it nowhere says that upon satisfaction of specified conditions the requested state must extradite. On the contrary it merely obliges any refusal to be accompanied by reasons (thus implying that refusal is permissible even if all conditions have been satisfied since no need for a decision arises until they have been):

[qimg]http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy57/cwismayer/ScreenShot2014-01-31at120322_zpsaac81658.png[/qimg]

So the way I read it, the treaty leaves much in the realm of politics and, in this case, not so much in the judicial sphere, although I don't doubt there will be case law on the interpretation of the application of the treaty to already-convicted persons since I imagine the decisions of executive organs of the US are themselves subject to judicial oversight. So you could have an executive decision to extradite judicially overridden and referred back. We (or many of us) may well be dead before it's all over.
Anglo

Thank you.
 
Maybe I am missing something:confused:

After *full* legal process, just verdict and a reasonable sentence was rendered

Are you now suggesting that all law abiding citizens throughout the world should now rejoice with you about extradition technicalities ??
Rejoice that a twice convicted murderess will possibly escape the reasonable jail term that she was rightfully sentenced to ??
Rejoice that a drug addled spoiled brat goes unpunished for horrendously murdering Meredith Kercher?

Really ??:rolleyes:


No, really not. I was in fact merely reporting the line the BBC has chosen to take as regards extradition in this case, as a contribution to the debate on that particular topic. In particular, as a counter-argument to posters from non-US jurisdictions who state categorically that extradition will happen and is a mere formality.

However, you're not that far out. I don't regard Amanda Knox as either drug adlled or a spoiled brat, and I am quite certain she did not murder Mereith Kercher.

Clear now?

Rolfe.
 
I beg to differ. I think Meredith was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Yes. This is the first and the saddest in a series of wrong places and wrong times. Although I would say that she had every right to safely be where she was at any time. Rudy Guede was in a place where he had no right to be. His actions are at the root of all this misery.
 
I just wanted to post a little note, especially for the lurkers out there who have maybe come to this case relatively recently.
Everytime there's a big event in this ongoing miscarriage of justice, a particular JREF poster comes over here to gloat and call those posters who believe in innocence Conspiracy Theorists.
Usually, conspiracy theories take the form of a group of people who question an authority's 'version' of a set of events. This case is unusual, because here we have the authority (police and prosecution) advancing a conspiracy theory, and a group of people who question this version. Pro-innocence posters are thereby the anti-CTers!
In the UK, the Criminal Cases Review Commission was set up because there had been a 'critical mass' of wrongful convictions overturned thanks to the investigation, analysis, and support of small groups of supporters, from friends and family of the accused / convicted, lawyers, experts, and members of the public prepared to give up their time to familiarise themselves with the details of a particular case, and the types of evidence in question. This has somewhat improved the chances of the wrongfully accused, as CCRC can compel the court of appeals to hear an appeal in full. However, the problem then becomes, not every case attracts this kind of support, and the CCRC don't have the resources to do the kind of work that the lucky few have dedicated supporters and advocates to do. Sure, Innocence Projects are helpful, but again, there's a distinct lack of resources there too.
Are the CCRC 'CT-ers' too?! Were the UK pandering to CT-ers when they set it up?! Are those lawyers working in Innocence Project CT-ers too? How about people who supported Ryan Ferguson? The Central Park 5? Stefan Kiszko? Barry George?
When we're discussing this case in a forum that's supposed to be about critical thinking, skepticism, and evidence-based thinking, it's almost unbelievable to me that posters with over 44,000 posts on this forum can come to this thread and criticise the people upon whom a fair and honest and transparent justice system depend. People who, whether they give any other kind of support or have any other kind of involvement in the case, do a public service in discussing the case, on the whole, with an admirable level of intellectual honesty and integrity, rigour, and in a way that's responsive to evidence, science and reason. The whole of this discussion is a permanent record that anyone, from Amanda, Raffaele and their families, the Kerchers, or just anyone interested in miscarriages of justice can read, and that is a good thing.
Mistakes in investigatory practice and approach usually happen quite early in criminal cases that end in wrongful convictions, especially when a police force is ill-prepared to handle a particularly high-profile or serious crime. Police incompetence which strays into corruption is endemic. Look at the Met's Sapphire Unit in the UK; supposed to be a flagship unit of the UK's most high-profile force, policing a 'world city', not a smallish provincial police force suddenly having to deal with an extremely brutal high profile crime. From the BBC (talking about the Independent Police Complaints Commission- what's Italy's version of this, by the way?):

"The watchdog has carried out five previous inquiries into Southwark Sapphire command.
Meanwhile, Det Con Ryan Coleman-Farrow, who was based in Southwark, was jailed for 16 months last October for failing to investigate rape and sexual assault claims and falsifying police records.
A second officer, based in Islington, north London, is still under criminal investigation.
In total, 19 officers from across London have been disciplined, including three who have been sacked." http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22300360

So that's 1, possibly 2 sets of criminal charges, 3 dismissals, and a further 16 who have been disciplined. Of course, this is a slightly different kind of incompetence than the type on display in Perugia / Rome. In a slightly different context. But the type of incompetence on display in Perugia does cohere with other similar situations involving wrongful convictions for murder: deception, manipulation and aggression in interrogation of often young, often vulnerable 'suspects' who believe they are witnesses, and are often classified as witnesses by authorities because of the legal implications of doing so, resulting in false 'confessions' or accusations that do not cohere with the other evidence, or if they do it is because of information passed (sometimes) inadvertently from interrogators, sloppy forensics, and misinterpretation of forensics, suspect-centric DNA work, lack of discovery on scientifically important documentation from police run or affiliated labs, tunnel-vision in the investigation, reliance on behavioural 'evidence' when not supported by physical evidence or witness evidence, involves multiple suspects even when the crime was actually committed by one individual.
Anyone who has studied miscarriages of justice can see all the classic hallmarks displayed in this case. For that poster to come here and call us CT-ers is unbelievably socially unaware of what actually goes on in our justice systems, and displaying that kind of ignorance on JREF of all places, should be hilarious. But all it actually does is make me sad and angry in equal measure.
 
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