Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Mary_H]

My sister who is a lawyer and consequently uninterested in this case ("criminal law is dismal"), has said to me that there is judicial truth and external reality. The court case is it's own little universe and the only facts are those presented to and accepted by the court. One of the problems here is that essentially unless the argument was presented in the first court it is difficult to present new evidence subsequently. The ISC was restrictive in allowing arguments. In common law jurisdictions the fact that the prosecution expert failed to follow protocol would have been interpreted in the defendants favour. Here good faith is assumed so the defence had to prove contamination etc. I don't think I am doing her explanation justice. Essentially unless you get it right at the beginning you are always disadvantaged.

Anyway, really can not think this is anything other than a scandalous miscarriage of justice. The saddest thing is that the structural faults that allowed this to occur will go unaddressed.

As said above it will be interesting to see what sort of convoluted logic is needed to justify the decision given the lack of evidence.

I think this makes it more likely the ECHR case will proceed.

I like your sister's explanation, or your presentation of it. I think Italy needs to make up its mind whether it wants to fight its legal cases the old way or the new way. They are still confused about how it's done. In this case, the prosecution was never required to present a cohesive case with solid evidence. That just ain't right.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

why should Guede's trial affect Amanda's and Raffaele's trial?

Assuming the sentence is upheld after appeal, which (granted) is a rather large assumption, she will be going back. The US government asks Italy for extradition quite frequently; it's very unlikely that the US would not reciprocate if asked.

One obvious problem for such a request is that the Court of Cassation used Guede's legal process (where both prosecution and defense had a reason to argue for multiple attackers) as a reason to throw out Hellmann's verdict. What opportunity to defend themselves did Amanda or Raffaele have to defend themselves in Guede's legal proceedings? I would say essentially none. Italy would have to answer for this nonsense and much more if it wants Amanda to be extradited. I am more worried about Raffaele at this point.

 

[Kaosium]

Depends a bit on the political climate of the US at the time it comes up. A conservative administration would view Amanda as a spoiled liberal who committed murder and should be put to death. They will not even look at the scientific evidence and will dismiss out of hand allegations of police and prosecutorial misconduct. They might even make a show of it with a perp walk.

They're also more inclined to listen to former FBI agents, directors of the FBI lab and less likely to view foreign court systems as infallible in regards to American rights. Especially ones whose Supreme Court includes a (literally) Communist honorary president who wants to put America on trial for 911.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I wonder who is foolish enough to fear Amanda Knox.

Meredith Kercher, if Knox hadn't already murdered her.

 

[anglolawyer]

I agree. In hindsight, one would prefer that the term Kafka-esque be reserved for matters where it is truly apt, and this is such a matter. In Sollecito, it is clear the Italians will cheerfully sacrifice one of their own in order to be "right".

No doubt Knox's attorneys did her a disservice this time by having respected a thing which deserved no respect, but I thought Bongiorno was appropriately confrontational, didn't you?

No, I thought she seemed washed up. It is common in many jurisdictions to change horses after a defeat. It's like a boxer who gets a bad beating. The case needed fresh eyes after Cassazione. But, money is a huge factor. A new legal team has to learn the case from scratch and that costs big time. Another problem has been separate defences for the two of them. They had the same defence and thus no conflict of interest. There is no reason why they should have been separately represented. That will have doubled the cost.

 

[PhantomWolf]

She wasn't tried a third time, it was the third stage of the process. Double jeopardy doesn't apply.

This, however Extradition requires going through an Extradition Hearing and it might be possible to fight that based on a Miscarriage of Justice. In that I suspect that you'd have to actually prove a miscarriage of Justice, which is a high standard, though I think there is quite a bit of evidence for one. I suspect that this is heading for the ECHR which is not as likely to be as friendly to the Italian methods as their own courts are.

 

[RoseMontague]

A court of law twice says she did. Their opinion kind of takes precedence over yours.

The truth is not necessarily what a court of law says. Most people who want the truth will look at the evidence and make their own decision. One court has found her innocent and her appeals are not exhausted. She will get a new panel for the next ISC session. There will be a motivation report issued by this court within 90 days. Perhaps this time you will stay around and discuss the courts reasoning.

 

[Mary_H]

Early days, we’ll just have to wait for the translation of the judge’s motivation report, so 90 + days. I guess crisis management will start cranking up in America winning hearts and minds; then of course there is Raffaele he’ll have until the Italian Supreme Court ratify or reject the verdict.

Raffaele and Amanda are in very different places figuratively and literally.

ETA:- Gosh, Amanda will be on BBC2 – Newsnight apparently.

I forgot to note what Raffaele's new sentence is. And did they say what he was convicted of? Or charged with?

 

[Diocletus]

Wow. Senator Cantwell has already come out with a statement that she is disappointed. She's clearly invested here.

Having a US Senator on your side is no joke.

 

[js202]

Really kind of stupid for the Italians to turn this into a potential international incident. The case is hardly worth the trouble.

Looking back, the ISC easily could have ended the thing and isolated the issue to Perugia. No one would have cared in the long run.

But now we've got this weird situation where the Italian government is aggressively going after an innocent US citizen (and one of its own) . . . for what reason? Diplomatically, this is a very odd situation. They have to realize that the process is now going to be looked at by people outside of Italy, and the process isn't pretty. I guess we get to see where it goes now.

In a word, the whole thing is backward. On one hand, stunningly so. But a legion of apparently functional idiots have climbed aboard behind the wrong side and adamantly ridden along for six years, so I guess one shouldn't be too surprised by the gutters into which civilization can still sink. The irresistible call of the primordial ooze, I suppose.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

And the vast majority of people will still think they are innocent.

The "vast majority of people" have no idea who any of them are.

 

[Mary_H]

No, I thought she seemed washed up. It is common in many jurisdictions to change horses after a defeat. It's like a boxer who gets a bad beating. The case needed fresh eyes after Cassazione. But, money is a huge factor. A new legal team has to learn the case from scratch and that costs big time. Another problem has been separate defences for the two of them. They had the same defence and thus no conflict of interest. There is no reason why they should have been separately represented. That will have doubled the cost.

Peter Quennell said Giulia Bongiorno is a water-carrier for the mafia. I wouldn't fire her if she were my attorney.

 

[Kaosium]

Meredith Kercher, if Knox hadn't already murdered her.

Rudy Guede murdered Meredith Kercher, they've already caught him. They just tried to pretend the two kids they took into the backroom in the middle of the night and abused were still involved despite the fact everything they arrested them on was bogus or mistaken.

So no one has to fear Amanda Knox, she didn't have anything to do with it, Raffaele neither. He's in a real bad way now, because he lives in what's become a third world judicial system.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

The way Kenneth Bae is convicted of trying to overthrow the government of North Korea?

Wow, I'm surprised it took this look for someone to make that comparison. Do you know for a fact that Kenneth Bae wasn't trying to overthrow the government of North Korea? If so, how do you know this? Because someone told you?

 

[CoulsdonUK]

I forgot to note what Raffaele's new sentence is. And did they say what he was convicted of? Or charged with?

25 years for Raffaele.

 

[acbytesla]

The "vast majority of people" have no idea who any of them are.

You're kidding right? There has only been about a dozen prime time specials in the US about Amanda Knox. Not to mention probably at least a hundred thousand articles minimum written about this case.

You'd have to be living under a rock in the US not to have at least some understanding of this case.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Statement from Amanda Knox

First and foremost it must be recognised that there is no consolation for the Kercher family. Their grief over Meredith’s terrible murder will follow them forever. They deserve respect and support.

"I am frightened and saddened by this unjust verdict. Having been found innocent before, I expected better from the Italian justice system. The evidence and accusatory theory do not justify a verdict of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Rather, nothing has changed. There has always been a marked lack of evidence. My family and I have suffered greatly from this wrongful persecution.

"This has got out of hand. Most troubling is that it was entirely preventable. I beseech those with the knowledge and authority to address and remediate the problems that worked to pervert the course of justice and waste the valuable resources of the system: overzealous and intransigent prosecution, prejudiced and narrow-minded investigation, unwillingness to admit mistake, reliance on unreliable testimony and evidence, character assassination, inconsistent and unfounded accusatory theory, and counterproductive and coercive interrogation techniques that produce false confessions and inaccurate statements.

"Clearly a wrongful conviction is horrific for the wrongfully accused, but it is also terribly bad for the victim, their surviving family, and society." link.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

statement from Lyle Kercher

Meredith's brother Lyle Kercher, in court to hear the verdict, said that although the ruling was never going to be "a case of celebrating", it was "the best we could have hoped for".

He told journalists the family's feelings were mixed in the knowledge that the sentence still had to be upheld by the highest appeals court in Italy. "It's hard to sort of feel anything at the moment because we know realistically it's going to go to a further appeal by the defendants, probably sometime in spring, so I think we were already prepared for that before this evening's decision," he said.

Asked if they felt any satisfaction at seeing the convictions upheld, he said: "Satisfaction inasmuch as this is what the prosecution's been working for and we've supported what they've been doing throughout.

"As we've said in the past, no matter what the verdict it was never going to be a case of celebrating anything. That's probably the best we could have hoped for. This is what we've been working towards."

The family's lawyer, Francesca Maresca, said there would be a press conference with Kercher's relatives on Thursday. "I hope this is justice for Meredith and for her family." from previously linked article

 

[Mary_H]

25 years for Raffaele.

Thanks, Coulsdon.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Curiously the US news channels I have access to here (Fox, CNN, ABC and MSNBC) etc didn’t lead with the verdict; the Boston bomber and Justin Beiber lead, I guess that will change.

I've had CNN on all day. I was watching when they broke the news. I figured Amanda Knox would dominate for the rest of the day. Then.....nothing. They went back to interviewing some guy about the ice storm in Atlanta. I don't think they've mentioned it since (although I have left the room a few times). I know the CTers will find this hard to accept, but the vast majority of people just don't care.