Merged Global Warming Discussion II: Heated Conversation

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I really wonder about S02 tho. Mind you China growth is also on pause and they are desperate to clean up the air.
Beijing looks worse than London - that has to be having some affect on radiation reaching the surface.

(Phys.org) —Power plant emissions of sulfur dioxide – an atmospheric pollutant with both health and climate impacts – have increased across India in recent years, according to a new analysis of data from a NASA satellite.

The analysis of data captured by an instrument on NASA's Aura satellite found that emissions of sulfur dioxide from Indian power plants have increased by more than 60 percent between 2005 and 2012, according to new research led by Zifeng Lu of Argonne National Laboratory in Lemont, Ill. The study was published online Dec. 5 in the journal Environmental Science & Technology.

India surpassed the United States in 2010 to become the world's second largest emitter of sulfur dioxide, after China, according to emission estimates previously published by Lu and scientists from universities and the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. That same research showed that about half of India's emissions come from the coal-fired power sector.
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China tho are tapering down - good progress given the growth

China realized on paper that they needed curb their emissions during the tenth five-year plan (2000-2005). In the tenth five-year plan for energy conservation and emissions reduction (节能减排第十五规划), they set a target to reduce SO2 by 10% compared to 2000 levels, but sulfur dioxide emissions actually increased 42% during that period. They ********** that one up, but many people probably got shiny BMWs out of all of it.

They did better during the eleventh five-year plan (2005-2010). They actually reduced SO2 by 14% from 2005 levels! This is especially impressive because the economy was developing and electricity generation actually grew by nearly 80% in this time period.
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http://stimulatedemissions.wordpress.com/2013/06/03/sulfur-dioxide-emissions-in-china/
 
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It's truly sick to observe a certain type of person, who obviously is waiting, hoping, maybe even praying, that the temperature of the earth will rise soon, hopefully in a way that will cause suffering. Same for those actually hoping for a large destructive storm to damage a country, so they can point and say "You see? You see what you did? We told you so".

It's even worse that such people consume, each day, the riches of the world, served up by fossil fuels and an infrastructure built with fossil fuels, while they type on a computer made from and using fossil fuels, with electricty from fossil fuels, in warm homes heated by fossil fuels.

All the while decrying fossil fuels as the danger facing us all.
 
As opposed to those who throw up doubt in the continuing hope to delay reaction to climate change. Especially those that are making money out of it such as the GPWF, ALEC, Cato Institute, Heartland, etc. Oreskes called them 'Merchants of Doubt'.
 
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r-j said:
It's truly sick to observe a certain type of person, who obviously is waiting, hoping, maybe even praying, that the temperature of the earth will rise soon, hopefully in a way that will cause suffering.
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Oh, boy ! You will, of course, quote these people ?

I think most people would rather the whole thing be a miscalculation.

Same for those actually hoping for a large destructive storm to damage a country, so they can point and say "You see? You see what you did? We told you so".
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You're going to try the million dollar challenge for mind reading, anytime soon ?

It's even worse that such people consume, each day, the riches of the world, served up by fossil fuels and an infrastructure built with fossil fuels, while they type on a computer made from and using fossil fuels, with electricty from fossil fuels, in warm homes heated by fossil fuels.

All the while decrying fossil fuels as the danger facing us all.
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Speak for yourself. My electricity comes from hydro.
 
I'm not talking about anyone in this thread. That would be horrific to think anyone who is a skeptic would be sitting around hoping and praying for a disaster to happen, or for the planet to somehow heat up quickly, causing massive extinctions and human misery, for the oceans to start accelerating their long rise, or for terrible droughts to occur, starving people and dead cows in the sun, no that would be truly awful.

I was thinking of those poorly educated people who actually are hoping for a global disaster, blogging away, tweeting their fears, ignoring the science.

It's actually makes me feel ill.
 
Belz
Speak for yourself. My electricity comes from hydro.
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Yup mine too plus nuclear - we cleared coal out this year. Course r-j is mighty afeared of nuclear.....it might come down the power lines and irradiate him.

Oh wait do so many things in the house.....little cabin in the woods maybe?? :rolleyes:

The world is moving to carbon neutral - not as fast as it might but good progress is being made.

Even big rich companies

Apple and the Environment
From reporting our entire carbon footprint to finding ways to reduce that footprint, Apple takes a comprehensive approach to environmental responsibility. Product by product, facility by facility, we report on our progress every year. So you can see what we’re doing — and what we’ve done — to make a difference.

Renewable Energy
Apple’s data centers are 100 percent powered by energy from renewable sources — solar, wind, hydro, and geothermal. And so are many of our corporate facilities. The ultimate goal is to power all Apple facilities entirely by renewable energy
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more
https://www.apple.com/environment/

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Is there some climate science about?

Y'know like Global Dimming II thanks to SO2.
 
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Haig said:
The oceans are not warming either unless you count the guesstimates from before accurate measurements were available.
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That suggests some hypocrisy, Haig - are you going to discard all of the solar data before accurate measurements (e.g. satellite data) were available just because they are your "guesstimates :rolleyes:?
Of course we do not!

There is no "unexpected anomaly of non-warming of the ocean". There is the fact that measurements of the ocean heat content show that it has increased and is still increasing.

The NOAA Global Ocean Heat and Salt Content web page has more information for you to ignore or deny, Haig.

Or if you like popular accounts: 135 Years of Records Reveals Deep Ocean Warming from Scientific American
Her Majesty's Ship Challenger set sail in 1872. Stripped of her guns and outfitted for science, her mission was to sail around the globe sampling as she went.

Among other scientific triumphs, the Challenger gathered the first global set of ocean temperature readings, more than 260 in all. The British expedition measured from the surface to a depth beyond 900 meters.
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FYI, Haig, that is about 100 years of records before the fairly steady increase in ocean heat content (0-2000 meters) from the 1980's.
 
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and Argo has

NOAA 200th Feature Story: Argo Floats
celebrating200years.noaa.gov/magazine/argo/welcome.html‎

By contrast, the distribution of nearly 3,000 Argo floats (below) creates a more uniform and closely spaced worldwide sampling distribution of approximately ...
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http://celebrating200years.noaa.gov/magazine/argo/welcome.html

that's a lot of data points and in addition to the monitoring by ocean ships on the major shipping lanes.
 
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Haig said:
Climate Change - It's the Sun stupid :cool:
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You do not have to cite people determined to show their ignorance of climate science, Haig :eek:!
Or repeat the inability to understand the simple fact of Sun & climate: moving in opposite directions
In the last 35 years of global warming, the sun has shown a slight cooling trend. Sun and climate have been going in opposite directions. In the past century, the Sun can explain some of the increase in global temperatures, but a relatively small amount.
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What about "In the last 35 years of global warming, the sun has shown a slight cooling trend", and that global warming happened over that period can you not understand Haig?
 
Perhaps because because he's a scientist being demeaned by............fill in the appropriate pejorative.

•••

Do you have any constructive supported climate science knowledge to offer?
 
"Global Cooling: Is an Ice Age Coming?" climate denial myths

Haig said:
Global Cooling: Is an Ice Age Coming?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Av_DAeTP6r4
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Haig, can you tell the difference between a news story determined to drive up ratings and the actual scientific literature?

Lots of fear mongering and climate denial myths.

Let us see - the known fact that Antarctic sea ice is increasing!
Is Antarctica losing or gaining ice?
While the interior of East Antarctica is gaining land ice, overall Antarctica has been losing land ice at an accelerating rate. Antarctic sea ice is growing despite a strongly warming Southern Ocean.
...
In summary, Antarctic sea ice is a complex and unique phenomenon. The simplistic interpretation that it must be cooling around Antarctica is decidedly not the case. Warming is happening - how it affects specific regions is complicated
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Citing Antarctic sea ice as if it were evidence for global cooling is ignorant to say the least.

A lie about the "Arctic ice is growing": Ice isn't melting
Ice mass loss is occuring at an accelerated rate in Greenland, Antarctica and globally from inland glaciers. Arctic sea ice is also falling at an accelerated rate. The exception to this ice loss is Antarctic sea ice which has Peen growing despite the warming Southern Ocean. This is due to local factors unique to the area.
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So what if sun spot activity is unusually low? We can predict what effect that will have on the climate: Are we heading into a new Ice Age?
The warming effect from more CO2 greatly outstrips the influence from changes in the Earth's orbit or solar activity, even if solar levels were to drop to Maunder Minimum levels.
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The reporter makes a big mistake about the Sun currently being in a Maunder Minimum.

Paranoia about the IPCC "suppressing" some research, some unnamed politicians removing the global warming pause from the draft.

Then the inanity that GW is a "cash cow" for climate scientists and environmental groups implying that climate scientists thus suppress any mention of the actual global temperatures :eek:.
Followed by more politics rather than science. Wow - for some reason a greener economy is bad! But then we have the real world: The economic impacts of carbon pricing
Climate economics research shows that in reality, we are harming the economy by failing to implement CO2 limits.
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r-j said:
It's truly sick to observe a certain type of person, ....
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Luckily there are no such type of people here to make you sick, r-j :jaw-dropp!

Hopefully there are none of the type of people who are so attached to political ideals or just plain denial that they cross their fingers and hope that the body of climate science that says that global warming is ongoing and will continue is wrong :rolleyes:.

Fossil fuels are of course a danger facing us. They are a contributor to the increase in CO2 that is a major driver of the global temperature rise.
 
I'd think you would have a lot of hydro potential in the South Island.

I was pleased Ontario moved from 25% coal 10 years ago to none this year.

My real disappointment is with Japan and Germany and their nuclear foolishness.
Tho at least Germany is really accelerating renewable and I suspect Japan will very quickly

I also suspect Japan will wake up soon enough ....and is

"A number of applications have already been made for the restart, so we would expect about 10 reactors to be restarted within 2014 and another five to 10 in 2015 and then we would have probably a 15% contribution to electricity coming from nuclear," said Stephen Church, managing partner of JI Asia in Tokyo.
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Given the poor record of the nuclear providers this is certainly not a bad pause to renew oversight.

Be nice if Germany could do the tranistion without coal. Certainly their electricity use per capita is admirable.

Sweden has nuclear, hydro and biomass so far ahead on transition.....we could be in Canada given the massive resources including nuclear but we have a seriousl brain dead gov in power with only 37% support to get into a majority. :mad:
 
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r-j said:
...

It's even worse that such people consume, each day, the riches of the world, served up by fossil fuels and an infrastructure built with fossil fuels, while they type on a computer made from and using fossil fuels, with electricty from fossil fuels, in warm homes heated by fossil fuels.

...
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Yes. We're typing on our computers, and using fossil fuels because this is the time and the society that we were born into.

The point isn't to don sackcloth and wander into the wilderness looking to live like an aesthetic. We're a part of this society and we're just trying to get our fellow countrymen and leaders to admit there's a problem so we can begin to work on solutions.

And that's the shame of it. The really interesting discussions will be centered around how we decide to face it, what our options are and how significantly we're willing to change ourselves in order to mitigate the effects of our lifestyles.

Yet here we are, still decades later in the same stupid discussions just trying to convince people that the problem is real and that something needs to be done.
 
I don't think we need to change lifestyles...we have the technology to move to carbon neutral while reducing carbon use dramatically.

Swedes are not exactly freezing in the dark - they have the second most competitive economy in the world and yet lead the world in the move to carbon neutral - they and few other countries intend to be there by 2050.

I'm sure the whale oil supporters had similar handwringers about transition. :rolleyes:

Boeing just applied to use 50% bio-diesel from vegetable waste for their jet fuel.
The US Military is moving forward on a number of fronts to reduce hydrocarbon fuel use.

It's the noisy Koch and company chattering class that is the biggest barrier.

I find it ironic he is demanding the high end wine industry be regulated while fighting tooth and nail against regulation of his use of the atmosphere as a free sewer. :mad:
 
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