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Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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One of the difficulties of placing the murder after 10PM is that the site where the phones were found was occupied by the cops. Somebody might want to prove me wrong but it just seems that walking up to an active crime scene covered in blood and lobbing a couple of cell phones in would be a particularly bad idea. If anyone does try this, please have someone video it from a safe location so they can post it.
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Perhaps. However, it appears to me that:

- We do not the have the officially recorded time for the bomb threat phone call to Lana's house (where Meredith's cell phones were found in the yard).

- We do not have the officially recorded time for Lana's subsequent call to the police.

- We do not have the official police report showing police arrival and departure times to/from Lana's house.

- We do not have independent verification of the police's explanation that the call was a boy's prank.

Maybe the same TV station that demonstrated climbing up to Meredith's window was easily doable, and that it was impossible for Nara to have heard someone running on the stairs, will track down the official records regarding the bomb threat phone call. It might turn out to be significant also.
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LBR is incorrect in saying the TOD was not brought up by the defense or Hellmann. It is covered in the Hellmann report at the link below. He bases the TOD primarily on the cell phone evidence (TOD before 10:13PM)

“If it is so important, why does the Hellmann report not even mention the topic of gastric emptying and TOD?”

This is the exact question I asked, RoseMontague. I was aware that H discussed the TOD, but not in relation to food being absent from the duodenum. If you are correct, then perhaps I missed it in my readings.
 
Have you made a minimal acknowledgment of the messages most of these posters have tried to convey about why they trust their knowledge?

Yes, and I remain open, and have even more doubts with regards to guilt because of this TOD information.
 
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Yeah, I think he's gone, bri1. He's over at TJMK and the PMFs asking them to apologize to . . .

I didn't find your erroneous assumptions particularly humorous. I thought that this site was about addressing the topic of the thread, not making sarcastic remarks about a newbie poster.
 
My first theory of the crime -- based on one or two articles -- was that Amanda Knox was a raging sociopath.

FWIW – in following this case since its inception, this is an opinion I have
not held. Before I bid you adios and leave with my stupidity (thanks bri1), I wanted to thank you for approaching my posts genuinely.

I will take my Bertrand Russell pipe and smoke it with the doubters (of whom I could find nowhere), keeping off reading all of the forums, and awaiting the only decision that counts in the end.
 
Here is that section you wanted, Grinder. Google translation.

6.The outcome of this comparison has allowed us to exclude the hypothesis that the genetic material of Meredith Kercher Dear Susan, Rudy Hermann Guede and Raffaele Sollecito is present in the track I and that, therefore, these subjects may have contributed, with their own biological material, the track I.
7. Also assesses the overall interpretation of the results carried out provides support in an extremely significant the hypothesis that the genetic material of Amanda Marie Knox is present in the trace, and that, therefore, Amanda Marie Knox has contributed with its own biological material, the track I.

OCR is poor but typed in the above is the result
 

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Pro-duodenum Vs Anti-duodenum

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Maybe we should rename both camps from PIP and PGP to the Pro-duodenum- and Anti-duodenum camps respectively.

I think that's what all the arguments about all the evidence "speculative to factual" rest on. At least here in the JREF anyway.

If you trust the duodenum conclusions, all the other guilty stuff is irrelevant. If you think you've explained away the duodenum evidence, then the totality of all the other evidence immediately has more weight.

It's a hell of a conundrum. How do you break through that kind of wall?

What kind of evidence needs to be out there to prove that the duodenum conclusions overides everything else? Is there any place out there that keeps records on this sort of thing? And where do you even start?

Where do you start? That's what I'm going to be doing the rest of today, thinking about that. Any advice would be most welcomed,

d

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Yes, and I remain open, and have even more doubts with regards to guilt because of this TOD information.
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At least your time here wasn't a waste. I've actually enjoyed reading your post. You are asking questions about things that bother you and asking questions about your beliefs is always a good thing in my mind.

Never take anyone's words for anything. If it bothers you, always do your own research and then come to your own conclusions.

Good luck in your journey,

d

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“If it is so important, why does the Hellmann report not even mention the topic of gastric emptying and TOD?”

This is the exact question I asked, RoseMontague. I was aware that H discussed the TOD, but not in relation to food being absent from the duodenum. If you are correct, then perhaps I missed it in my readings.


I don't know why the defence haven't been making a big deal about the gastric transit time, because it is an absolute slam-dunk win for them. My only conclusion is that they have to a large extent fallen for the "unreliable" meme without really understanding the details of the issue. In particular that it isn't about gastric emptying. Also, that there are so many aspects to the case and in particular the prosecution kept changing its ground so they became snarled up in other matters.

In the other case I have been looking at, I discovered that the defence had had in their possession all along the evidence that conclusively proved their client was innocent, and they hadn't realised it. Again, it is really obvious, but it was something they simply had not considered in the middle of looking at a lot of other, less obvious matters. And interestingly, the hardest person to convince was the defence researcher who had given me the evidence. He simply couldn't get his brain round a different way of looking at the case, or the idea that he had missed something that someone else new to the case had spotted.

So really, the "why didn't the defence make a big deal of this point" isn't much of an argument. Lawyers failing to grasp something really important is actually distressingly commonplace.

Rolfe.
 
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As a newbie, I want to ask why people are so negative about the Perugia police. The police rapidly identified suspects on behavioural grounds and a suspicious text then managed to get a 'confession' for one of the suspects incriminating a third. When a witness subsequently provided an alibi for that suspect, and forensic evidence identified a new suspect they did not just do what a lot of police forces would have done and just settled for prosecuting the suspect they had evidence against, but they continued to investigate the case. I have reviewed the literature on murder, Christie, A. Sayers, D.L. et al and it is quite clear the obvious suspect is never the real murderer. Whilst I accept the population studied by the authors is principally English I have little reason to think Italian murders are any different. The Perugia police clearly realised this and instituted further forensic studies, the lack of evidence against AK and RS clearly signalled their guilt. The attempt to incriminate an innocent third party in place of the RG who they intended to incriminate was clearly a clever double bluff. Indeed as many pro innocent experts would argue the extensive evidence against RG is highly suggestive that AK and RS framed him for the crime.

The alternative would be to assume the Perugian police had wrongly arrested two innocent people announced crime solved before the forensic science reports were available, extracted a conffession from an innocent person incriminating a third innocent person who was also arrested. Held innocent people in solitary confinement for months before unjustly convicting them. Not even in the wildest crime fiction would such a story be believable. So come on chaps lets all join TJMK.
 
The Court of Supreme Cassation versus science

I will take my Bertrand Russell pipe and smoke it with the doubters (of whom I could find nowhere), keeping off reading all of the forums, and awaiting the only decision that counts in the end.
I am sorry if my attempt at humor fell flat. But I am genuinely puzzled by something. Yes, the CSC has the final word, but if you are putting your trust in their getting it right, then why engage in discussion at all?

Have you read the CSC motivations document? I wrote a long commentary on its treatment of DNA evidence. The short version is that they are very wrong, factually and scientifically. Taking their fecklessness with respect to science as a given, why would anyone bother to present them with a case for innocence based upon lack-of-contents in the duodenum?
 
I don't know why the defence haven't been making a big deal about the gastric transit time, because it is an absolute slam-dunk win for them. My only conclusion is that they have to a large extent fallen for the "unreliable" meme without really understanding the details of the issue. In particular that it isn't about gastric emptying. Also, that there are so many aspects to the case and in particular the prosecution kept changing its ground so they became snarled up in other matters.

In the other case I have been looking at, I discovered that the defence had had in their possession all along the evidence that conclusively proved their client was innocent, and they hadn't realised it. Again, it is really obvious, but it was something they simply had not considered in the middle of looking at a lot of other, less obvious matters. And interestingly, the hardest person to convince was the defence researcher who had given me the evidence. He simply couldn't get his brain round a different way of looking at the case, or the idea that he had missed something that someone else new to the case had spotted.

So really, the "why didn't the defence make a big deal of this point" isn't much of an argument. Lawyers failing to grasp something really important is actually distressingly commonplace.

Rolfe.

I have followed the stomach didn't begin to empty arguments for awhile. I am not sure I have understood everything but I base most of my opinion on the matter on the fact that I think AK and RS are innocent, the earlier time of death is consistent with other factors but mostly I find the stomach evidence credible because I trust Rolfe.

That works for me, but it doesn't work for the world at large. What the defense would need to have done with regard to this is to make its case here was to get pathologists, particularly well known pathologists, to testify with regard to this issue and explain this issue to the public. Has this been attempted by the defense? Have any well known pathologists weighed in on this issue? It sounds like the defense attorneys may not have understood this issue. Is that possible? Was that the problem?
 
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Maybe we should rename both camps from PIP and PGP to the Pro-duodenum- and Anti-duodenum camps respectively.

I think that's what all the arguments about all the evidence "speculative to factual" rest on. At least here in the JREF anyway.

If you trust the duodenum conclusions, all the other guilty stuff is irrelevant. If you think you've explained away the duodenum evidence, then the totality of all the other evidence immediately has more weight.

It's a hell of a conundrum. How do you break through that kind of wall?

What kind of evidence needs to be out there to prove that the duodenum conclusions overides everything else? Is there any place out there that keeps records on this sort of thing? And where do you even start?

Where do you start? That's what I'm going to be doing the rest of today, thinking about that. Any advice would be most welcomed,


It's not a question of overriding everything else. There really isn't much else. It's a question of the duodenal contents being in accordance with pretty much everything else that tells us about time of death.

Meredith didn't phone her Mum. She didn't take her jacket or her shoes off. She didn't use her computer that we know of. There is nothing in the cottage that speaks to her having been alive and doing stuff in there for any period at all after she returned.

Rudy said she screamed at about 9.20, and while Rudy is a lying murdering scumbag, he is likely to have said that because he suspected the scream might have been heard. He is the only one who knows when she died, but unless he is an idiot (as well as a lying murdering scumbag) he will know that forensics can usually gauge time of death. So he would want to make his story fit the facts he thought could be proven.

I don't know what we'd do if we had some conclusive proof that Meredith was still alive at 11.30. I mean, it's insane. There's no way on earth that meal could still have been in her stomach then, especially not with recognisable bits of pizza and crumble. And if we had to assume that she are a second, identical meal just after she arrived home (really??), then where's the first one? Her jejunum was almost empty, but the first meal should have been there.

But we have no solid evidence she was alive then. The scream and the running footsteps are nothing. We don't have to find some crazy way either physiology or the progression of time itself are wrong.

The question may be, how late could we place the murder, given the digestive findings. I'd say about 9.30, though others have argued for ten. But then you run into other things.

The broken down car shows the murder must have taken place before 10.15 - is that the time the break-down happened? Because the people with the car saw nothing, and Meredith was certainly not alive by the time the car was towed away.

The 10.15 connection of her phone to a different tower is extremely strong evidence the murderer (Rudy) was already out of the house with the phone in his possession. The "fiddling with the phone" calls to Abbey were almost certainly made by Rudy trying to turn it off. This lot argues for an earlier time of death, rather than the 9.45 to 10.15 some people have been speculating about. Meredith was idly playing with her phone at ten, but the whole murder and its aftermath were over by 10.15? I don't think so.

So where is the positive evidence we have to deal with that's so strong we must conclude that Meredith was alive, lounging quietly on her bed doing nothing in particular until after the break-down truck pulled away, and then was murdered later? There's nothing. Just nothing.

The problem is that the cops didn't wait to figure this out before they pulled in Amanda because they didn't like her attitude, and then they preferred to fit her up to save face over a quick acknowledgement that they'd been a bit hasty.

Rolfe.
 
Mignini changed the TOD late in the game

“If it is so important, why does the Hellmann report not even mention the topic of gastric emptying and TOD?”

This is the exact question I asked, RoseMontague. I was aware that H discussed the TOD, but not in relation to food being absent from the duodenum. If you are correct, then perhaps I missed it in my readings.
Mignini moved the TOD back by at least an hour in his closing remarks in 2009, to 11:30 or later. IMO, this change may have caught the defense flat-footed. That having been said, I wish that the defense had made the duodenum a bigger deal, at least in the court of public opinion and posssibly for the benefit of the ECHR.
 
What the defense would need to have done with regard to this is to make its case here was to get pathologists, particularly well known pathologists, to testify with regard to this issue and explain this issue to the public. Has this been attempted by the defense? Have any well known pathologists weighed in on this issue? It sounds like the defense attorneys may not have understood this issue. Is that possible? Was that the problem?


Yes, I think this is the problem. My experience in the other case has opened my eyes to just how easy it is for lawyers who are pressed for time trying to master a brief and have other things to think about to miss something absolutely central and vital and completely exculpatory.

The broken-down car is the key here. Meredith must have been dead by the time the car was towed away. There is just no argument on this. This is the point the defence needed to get the experts to testify to. Instead there was a lot of confused shilly-shallying.

Since we know the murder didn't happen while the broken down car was sitting there, the time of death therefore has to go back to before the breakdown. Not just the time of death but the whole thing, right up to Rudy's escape with the phones.

Then you can start arguing about the exact time, and everything fits a murder that began to happen soon after Meredith got home. But what you simply cannot have is a murder that happened after the tow-truck left.

Rolfe.
 
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I don't know why the defence haven't been making a big deal about the gastric transit time, because it is an absolute slam-dunk win for them. My only conclusion is that they have to a large extent fallen for the "unreliable" meme without really understanding the details of the issue. In particular that it isn't about gastric emptying. Also, that there are so many aspects to the case and in particular the prosecution kept changing its ground so they became snarled up in other matters.

In the other case I have been looking at, I discovered that the defence had had in their possession all along the evidence that conclusively proved their client was innocent, and they hadn't realised it. Again, it is really obvious, but it was something they simply had not considered in the middle of looking at a lot of other, less obvious matters. And interestingly, the hardest person to convince was the defence researcher who had given me the evidence. He simply couldn't get his brain round a different way of looking at the case, or the idea that he had missed something that someone else new to the case had spotted.

So really, the "why didn't the defence make a big deal of this point" isn't much of an argument. Lawyers failing to grasp something really important is actually distressingly commonplace.
Rolfe.
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It is distressingly commonplace and with all the other factual evidence that points to the same conclusion makes it even more unbelievable that anyone on the defense isn't really making this a bigger deal than they are.

She could have eaten uncooked dough which throws off the duodenum evidence.

Ok, but how about the last try to her (Meredith's) mother?

She might have done other things and forgotten.

Ok, how about Rudy's Skype call?

He's a liar and the evidence supports that conclusion.

Well then, how about all the evidence pointing to Rudy in the room but none from Amanda?

The wounds and bruising proves there were more than one attackers, and there have been cases where no DNA was found at the scene and don't forget Amanda's confession.

That confession is the worse confession I have read in my life. It's obviously a false confession.

But it proves she was there and that she's a liar and plus Raffaele's DNA on the bra proves he was there also and they said they were together and Rudy said Amanda was there.

That DNA is from contamination and I thought you said Rudy was a liar.

You have to prove that there actually is contamination and not just say it's possible. Rudy doesn't lie about everything and his DNA there proves he's telling the truth here.

Why isn't he telling the truth in his skype call?

Because Meredith was stressed and had eaten uncooked pizza which proves the TOD was later than his skype call says, proving he lied...

and on and on and on...

No one's going to be totally convinced until someone proves the duodenum evidence overrides everything else, but you're right Rolfe the other evidence isn't there or strong enough either, but the arguement for innocence, to me anyway, all starts with the duodenum,

d

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A comment on the multiple assailant theory

When I was on a high school wrestling team one of the coaches had been a college football (American) lineman that had tried out for the LA Rams. He could manhandle the strongest wrestler on our team like the guy was made of paper.

The strength and weight ratios of that coach to the largest and strongest boy on our team were in the same range as the ratios between Guede and Kercher. The notion that somebody with this kind of strength and weight advantage over his victim would have needed accomplices to successfully carry out the attack on Kercher is one of the sillier theories put forth in this case.

Of course, the complete lack of evidence for multiple attackers that would have been there if multiple attackers were involved is important evidence that the multiple attacker theory is bogus. But the fact is that if there had been multiple people involved in this crime there would have been absolutely no necessity for them to become involved in the attack. Guede would have been able to completely control Kercher until he killed her without any help.
 
No one's going to be totally convinced until someone proves the duodenum evidence overrides everything else,


Well start with the easy bit. It certainly proves the murder was all over, and the murderer escaped, before the car broke down.

But really, this is nuts. It absolutely encapsulates why this case is so completely ********** up. In the normal course of digestive physiology, it was better than evens that some of that meal would have been in Meredith's duodenum even before she got home. It wasn't, but them's were the odds. When she got home, the gastric transit was at the stage it was going to start any time.

You need extraordinarily strong evidence showing something other than a murder soon after she arrived home even to question that interpretation. If there had been such evidence, there still wasn't going to be a lot of wiggle-room.

What you do have, is absolute proof the murder happened before the break-down though, so you can at least start with that.

Rolfe.
 
Yes, it is easy to go to the source and read Amanda's blog about the prank.

What isn't so easy, is to make an opinion about the credibility of that source. If you believe in her innocence, then you have already established the credibility of her story without question. However, she is on trial for murder, so the credibility of everything she says, is up for question.

Before you overreact think about this: should the women on trial for being witches have had everything they said up for question?

Mach always stands by the witnesses saying they should be believed even though they didn't come forward for months and months, changed their stories from what they told investigators right after the murder and only came forward after extensive discussions with a newbie reporter. They received their 15 minutes and helped get the murderer, their reward.

While she has no obligation to anyone to tell the details of this April Fool's prank, if the other 5 co-perpetrators of this prank stepped forward and corroborated her innocent version of the event, her credibility with regards to that particular incident would increase.

However, none of the 5 have stepped forward to describe their version of the event. Perhaps their version would be much different than the one she writes about in her blog, and thus would further undermine her credibility.

And none have come forward saying what a whack job she was or how frightened they were or that they had reported her behavior to authority.
I missed where the 5 count came from. If there is no evidence of 5 then this is another case of PGP 'enhancement'.

We can't know, because there is not enough information.

But it has been a subject for the PGP for 6 years.

One more question. Other than Machiavelli and Briars, all who post here believe without doubt, that AK and RS are innocent. How is it reasonable that you could all come to that conclusion when,

a) you have not read all of the primary source documents for all of the trials for yourself, even those that have not been translated into English (I'm assuming that most of you cannot read Italian)

b) you have not attended court proceedings to understand what has been said by all people, as a jury would have the opportunity to do

What I find amazing, is the level of certainty that people have about this case and who do not fall into one or both of the above categories . . . . just saying . . . .

There is also Coulsdon, Sherlock and Cuki. How can anyone agree with guilt if they didn't do a and b? Many a jury has delivered a verdict that proved to be in error. While the jury heard it all they may not have seen other information (duodenum) or were intimidated by the prosecutor and police. They need to live in the community after the trial.


FWIW – in following this case since its inception, this is an opinion I have not held.

Really? Where have you been? You think she is guilty but not a sociopath?
 
In terms of the digestion and TOD discussion and why the defense was so weak about it I think people need to go back in time and get context. Not only did the prosecution move the time late but they depended on the witnesses that no reasonable person could take seriously. Curatolo was at best a homeless guy that had told the police he'd seen nothing. Nara gave no time. Formica had it around 10:15.

All the evidence pointed to death no later than 10. The police had speculated the early time from the beginning. Why would the defense think they needed the digestive analysis at all?

As we have seen the PGP are moving to the earlier time anyway.
 
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