Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[AmyStrange]

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Am I on trial here?

ETA: I'm not sure I know what you think I cherry-picked. Do you mean the TOD argument?

To be completely accurate Dan O., Rolfe first made this comment:

“Explain to me how Amanda and Raffaele could have killed Meredith and left a body which still had all its early evening meal in the stomach with none of it in the duodenum.

That's the first hurdle to overcome. With that in the way, no, they cannot be guilty.”

When he/she said this, I wondered if it could really be that simple by definitively determining the TOD, then all of the other large amounts of forensic and circumstantial evidence would collapse like a house of cards.

From bouncing around, to being shunned, to being a minion – you could not be further from the truth. As far as a free thinker goes, I think we would all like to believe we are free thinkers, but philosophically speaking, I don't think this is possible because we are always influenced by so many variables.

If you want to know how I am presenting myself here, the closest 2 comments I have read that would represent this, would be the one from JREF 2010:

In a definitive way (my emphasis), “no one will know who committed the crime except for the three accused”.

The second is a quote on the bottom of the mod zooterkin's profile by Bertrand Russell: “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.”

What I was actually wondering, is if there were people who had doubts on either side of the divide.

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There are actually over a thousand pages in this thread and over 20 times more post. It's really hard to keep track of what has been already asked. I really sympathize with new posters.

I personally think you're ok and actually are thinking about some of the things already posted here. I can tell because of the questions you've actually asked. My motto with controversial subjects is to always question everything, even your own beliefs.

I honestly wish you luck in your quest,

d

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[Chris_Halkides]

critical thinking

What I was actually wondering, is if there were people who had doubts on either side of the divide.

Suppose that the putative semen stain had been tested in a demonstrably competent lab and been shown to be semen and to be from Raffaele. Or suppose that the kitchen knife had been opened up and shown to contain Meredith's blood. Either of those two would have been enough to convert me from a belief in innocence to a belief in guilt (particularly the second one). There are other examples, as LondonJohn pointed out IIRC.

An inability to absorb new data and to respond accordingly is a hallmark of a lack of critical thinking. IMO instead of concentrating on doubts, you should pose the question as "What evidence would have to be different in order for you to change your mind?" And you should ask PGP as well as PIP.

EDT
Beyond the stomach/duodenum issue, there is a mountain of missing evidence in this case, by which I mean things that should be there if the pair were guilty, but are not. Where is the CCTV footage of Knox and Sollecito going out? Where are their bloody clothes? Where are their bloody shoe prints? It is the differential of evidence against Guede when compared with the evidence against the pair that is so telling IMO.

 

[Samson]

Am I on trial here?

ETA: I'm not sure I know what you think I cherry-picked. Do you mean the TOD argument?

To be completely accurate Dan O., Rolfe first made this comment:

“Explain to me how Amanda and Raffaele could have killed Meredith and left a body which still had all its early evening meal in the stomach with none of it in the duodenum.

That's the first hurdle to overcome. With that in the way, no, they cannot be guilty.”

When he/she said this, I wondered if it could really be that simple by definitively determining the TOD, then all of the other large amounts of forensic and circumstantial evidence would collapse like a house of cards.

From bouncing around, to being shunned, to being a minion – you could not be further from the truth. As far as a free thinker goes, I think we would all like to believe we are free thinkers, but philosophically speaking, I don't think this is possible because we are always influenced by so many variables.

If you want to know how I am presenting myself here, the closest 2 comments I have read that would represent this, would be the one from JREF 2010:

In a definitive way (my emphasis), “no one will know who committed the crime except for the three accused”.

The second is a quote on the bottom of the mod zooterkin's profile by Bertrand Russell: “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.”

What I was actually wondering, is if there were people who had doubts on either side of the divide.

Open minds are not always necessary, for example age of the universe is determined by physical laws to be about 13.8 billion years. This won't be amended much anymore, nor will the time before which Meredith died.
These two were convicted for killing at 11 30pm, so the conviction can not be reconciled with the facts.
Physical laws and forensic evidence as photographed and not edited prove the rock was thrown from the outside, but Massei said it was thrown from inside and wrongly convicted them for this.
Your open mind should be reserved for other elements of the case, not for the items proved to be wrong since Massei convicted.

 

[AmyStrange]

Probabilities

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What I was actually wondering, is if there were people who had doubts on either side of the divide.

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I have to agree with you that no one can know with absolute certainty if they were involved except the three suspects.

My belief in innocence is based on the high improbability that the duodenum, Meredith's last call to her mother, and Rudy's Skype are all wrong, The probabilities of them all being wrong are, in my opinion, just too high.

Don't even get me started on the "confession",

d

ETA Also known as the "accusation"
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[acbytesla]

Originally Posted by LBR View Post
What I was actually wondering, is if there were people who had doubts on either side of the divide.

Suppose that the putative semen stain had been tested in a demonstrably competent lab and been shown to be semen and to be from Raffaele. Or suppose that the kitchen knife had been opened up and shown to contain Meredith's blood. Either of those two would have been enough to convert me from a belief in innocence to a belief in guilt (particularly the second one). There are other examples, as LondonJohn pointed out IIRC.

An inability to absorb new data and to respond accordingly is a hallmark of a lack of critical thinking. IMO instead of concentrating on doubts, you should pose the question as "What evidence would have to be different in order for you to change your mind?" And you should ask PGP as well as PIP.

EDT
Beyond the stomach/duodenum issue, there is a mountain of missing evidence in this case, by which I mean things that should be there if the pair were guilty, but are not. Where is the CCTV footage of Knox and Sollecito going out? Where are their bloody clothes? Where are their bloody shoe prints? It is the differential of evidence against Guede when compared with the evidence against the pair that is so telling IMO.

This has been a question that I have asked myself over and over again. I want to be analytical and come at this fairly. I agree with Chris about the putative semen stain, but would instantly mistrust any "new evidence" that might come to light at this late date. There has been too many signs of evidence tampering by the prosecution. Everything from the DNA on the cooking knife to the 4 computer drives being corrupted. If for example the prosecution opened the clamshell of the knife and found Meredith's blood, I would be very skeptical since it has been in the Prosecution's possession this whole time.

 

[Briars]

For reference, here are some of Briars thoughts on evidence and timelines posted on this site:

​

Notice how she keeps changing times to fit different parts of the evidence.

I've been gathering reference to time stamped events in this case. A comprehensive theory of the crime has to weave through these times or offer an alternate explanation for the event.

1 November 2007

• 17:45 (approx) Jovana Popovic stops by and asks Raffaele to drive her to the train station. (Murder in Italy)
  Amanda says this was before they started watching Amelie (Amanda testimony)
• 18:27:15 VLC was launched to play the multimedia file Amelie.avi - Massei Report pg 325
  Amanda and Raffaele start watching Amelie ( 122 min, implies film would finish playing at 20:29 if left to run normally. Closing credits would start at 20:25 )
• 19:30 TG3 news report starts; Guede claims he left home shortly after the program started.
  Source Micheli report. "Coming to the evening of 1 November, R. remember leaving the house as he began the TG3 regional".
• 19:53 First sighting of figure thought to be Guede on car park CCTV camera, adjusted forward 12 minutes per the defence's theory.
  He is walking through the car park towards the cottage. CCTV time stamp is 19:41. [1]
• 20:18:12 Lumumba sent text message to Knox saying she didn't need to come to work.
  Time established by phone records on Amanda Knox page.
  (cell Aqueduct Street Eagle 5-wk. 3) - Massei Report pg 345
• 20:22 Second sighting of figure thought to be Guede on car park CCTV camera, adjusted forward 12 minutes per the defence's theory.
  He is walking from left to right along the street, past the car park on the right and the cottage on the left. Fits with Guede's claim to have arrived at the cottage around 20:30. CCTV time stamp is 20:10. [2]
• 20:35:48 Knox responds with text message to Lumumba. Time established by phone records on Amanda Knox page. Message is "See you later, Good evening" in Italian.
  (cell Via Berardi area 7) - Massei Report pg 345
• 20:40 Amanda and Raffaele at RS's place. MSNBC 2009-03-20
  In testimony, Jovana Popovic of Serbia said Sollecito had agreed to drive her to a bus station in Perugia the night of the murder. ... Popovic went to Sollecito's house at 8:40 p.m. to tell him she no longer needed to go, and Knox opened the door to take the message, the Serbian woman testified. (Did Amanda answer the door because Raffaele was on the phone?)
  Raffaele was supposed to drive her to the station around midnight.
  "AK: Later on, she came back and talked with Raffaele, and Raffaele explained to me that she didn't need to be driven to the station any more." about the time they were having dinner. (Amanda testimony)
• 20:42:56 Raffaele is called by his father, talks for 3 1/2 minutes.
  Time established by phone records on Raffaele Sollecito page. (cell Beradi Way Area 7) - Massei Report pg 339
• 20:43 Prosecution presented CCTV time where figure is seen crossing the street towards the cottage (see 21:05)
  Prosecution claims CCTV clocks were 10 minutes fast (citation needed), CCTV timestamp would therefore be 20:53 (Actual timestamp shows 20:51:36.17)
  Sollecito's defense however contested the manner in which they were identified times of the images. Lanazione, March 13, 2009 (it)
• 20:45 Meredith leaves residence of Robyn Butterworth at Via Bontempi, 22 and walks with Sophie Purton.
  (PT=20:45)
  Time approximate, based on Sophie's statement that she arrived home in Via del Lupo at 20:55.
• 20:55 Sophie Purton arrives home in Via del Lupo.
  Source Micheli Report. "On 17 November, P[urton] made a new prosecuting magistrate deposition...correcting the time that she was back in Via del Lupo, recalling that it was still 20:55".
• 20:56 Phone call from Meredith's phone to mother, cut off almost immediately.
  "In evidence on Friday, Stefano Sisani, of the Perugia flying squad, revealed that a call to Kercher’s mother, Arline, in Coulsdon, Surrey, was made from her mobile at 8.56pm on the night of November 1. She used the phone daily to call her mother, who was ill. The call was cut off before she got through" (Times Online, March 22, 2009)
  Theory that call was cut off by attack is unlikely, as Meredith would still be near Sophie's flat at this time. More likely explanation is that call was dropped because of poor signal in tight medieval streets.
  Logged in phone memory - Massei Report pg 350
• 21:04 Sighting of figure thought to be Meredith on the car park CCTV camera, CCTV time adjusted forward 12 minutes per the defense's theory.
  The figure is walking from left to right on the same side of the street as the cottage. CCTV time stamp was said to be 20:43 in early news reports (when the figure was thought to be Amanda); later reports of 20:41 are possibly a confusion with Guede's sighting at 19:41. Fits with Sophie's arrival home at 20:55, and the interrupted call at 20:56. Telegraph 2007-11-12Daily Mail 2009-03-14
• 21:05 Kercher arrives at cottage
  Time approximate, based on walk since leaving Sophie. Also matches up with female figure seen walking towards cottage gate on car park video at 20:43. Prosecution claims clock is 10 minutes fast, see 13:34 on Nov. 2 for why it's probably 12 minutes slow. Video available on web is cropped and doesn't show camera timestamps. A still from te video has been discovered showing the timestamp of 20:51:36.17
• 21:10 Last human interaction with RS's computer during this night.
  Testimony of police expert Marco Trotta at trial. (Telegraph 14-Mar-2009 - Amanda Knox trial, police cast doubt on computer alibi)
• 21:10:32 last access to the file Amelie.avi - Massei Report pg 325
  This is not related to when the playing of the film Amelie ended, it only indicates further (human) interaction with the computer
• 21:20-21:30 time of Meredith's scream as recounted in Rudy's Skype call
• 21:26 Last opening of file "Naruto ep 101.avi" recorded in spotlight metadata on Raffaele's computer. (from Raffaele's appeal)
  runtime is 23 minutes watch on hulu
  the last access time recorded in the filesystem is on Nov. 6th after Raffaele is in police custody.
• 21:58 Attempt to call voice mail (from phone memory)
  Massei Report pg 350
• 22:00 Kercher's phone attempts to call Abbey Bank.
  Source Micheli Report. Call fails because 44 prefix for UK not used.
• 22:00 (aprox) Hoax bomb threat call to Elisabetta (villa where phones were recovered)
  (Massei Report pg 13)
• 22:13:19 Kercher's mobile phone had received a picture message.
  Source Micheli Report. Connected via cell area of Ponte Rio - Montelaguardia.
  the phone connected to the 30064 Strada Vicinale Ponte Rio Monte La Guardia cell (Massei 337)
  (Massei Report pg 348) GPRS (internet) lasting 9 seconds to the IP address 10.205.46.41
• 22:30 Black man running up stairs near cottage.
  Time approximate, Alessandra Formica and boyfriend are descending the stairs of via della Pergola that lead to viale S.Antonio, where their car is parked and where the cottage is. Suddenly a guy who walks in the rush, coming up, bumps into them and runs away. At trial she says "I can rule out that the guy could be Rudy Guede". Perugia Shock 2009-03-26 (cache)
• 22:30-23:00 - Car breakdown at exit to parking garage across from cottage.
  Time approximate. Pasqualino Coletta (the driver) testified that nothing out of the ordinary happened during this time.[3]
• 23:00 Mechanic comes for broken down car.
  Time approximate. Gianfranco Lombardi was there for about 10 minutes, noticed a dark colored car parked outside Meredith's place, but nothing suspicious.[4]
• 23:41:11 Father ends SMS to Raffaele. (this will not be received until after 6am.) (Massei [342])

2 November 2007

• 00:10:31 Meredith's english phone connects to cell 25622 at Piazza Lupattelli (Massei 337)
• 00:58:50 Fastweb log files show 4 second web connection from Raffaele's computer to www.apple.com (Massei 332)
• 02:00 Guede spotted at a local nightclub.
  Source?
• 05:32:09-05:32:13 Three VLC crashes on Raffaele's computer (Massei [327])
• 05:56:37 A playlist was created on Raffaele's computer (Massei [330])
• 06:02:59 Raffaele's phone receives SMS from Francesco Sollecito
  (cell Via Beradi area 7) Massei Report pg 339, 342
• 06:22 Screensaver on Raffaele's computer kicks in marking the end of human activity on the computer for the night. (addendum to Raffaele Sollecito Appeal)

LOL major find!! did it happen at 10:00 or 10:15 . I moved closer to 10 :15 to account for the near collision Guede had with the witness around 10:30.TOD and stomach contents would fit with that time if you consider a fatty meal , one that extended over a couple of hours and a digestive system halted by the stress encountered at the cottage. Pull all those posts up for me will you. Thanks

 

[moije2]

LOL major find!! did it happen at 10:00 or 10:15 . I moved closer to 10 :15 to account for the near collision Guede had with the witness around 10:30.TOD and stomach contents would fit with that time if you consider a fatty meal , one that extended over a couple of hours and a digestive system halted by the stress encountered at the cottage. Pull all those posts up for me will you. Thanks

So folks, may I ask, is there any merit to these 3 points? I am certain they have been covered at least 25 times before here. Valid points, or is this a lost cause in terms of use of time?

I was under the impression that the 1) fatty meal was not scientifically supported, as well as 2) the duration of the meal inasmuch as it is the start time of the meal that is relevant. As for #3 the argument would have to be that the stress started very close to 9 pm and somehow slowed or postponed the movement of initial chyme into the duodenum. I will take pointers on these. My impression is that this argument/discussion is going nowhere, but will gladly accept redirection.

 

[Mary_H]

<snip>From bouncing around, to being shunned, to being a minion – you could not be further from the truth. As far as a free thinker goes, I think we would all like to believe we are free thinkers, but philosophically speaking, I don't think this is possible because we are always influenced by so many variables.

The second is a quote on the bottom of the mod zooterkin's profile by Bertrand Russell: “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.”

What I was actually wondering, is if there were people who had doubts on either side of the divide.

My first doubt, in 2007, was that someone with Amanda's background would sit in the kitchen covering her ears while her roommate was screaming in the bedroom, when it would have been so easy to use the phone to call the police and stop what was happening. Knowing a lot of kids in that age group in Seattle, I just did not find that likely at all.

I didn't really look into the case until about a year after the arrests, but when I did I found that a lot of other people had doubts about the allegations, for example, Candace Dempsey, who was citing Italian news stories that recounted some of the prosecution remarks being made about Amanda, for example, that it was suspicious that she took two showers in one day, etc.

When I started doing my own research and found out about how the knife was retrieved, well.....my doubts were greatly increased.

I think Bertrand Russell's quote was probably aimed more at the kind of people who, say, arrest three people, find they have no evidence against them, then release one and keep the other two in custody just because they refuse to admit they were wrong.

 

[LondonJohn]

LOL major find!! did it happen at 10:00 or 10:15 . I moved closer to 10 :15 to account for the near collision Guede had with the witness around 10:30.TOD and stomach contents would fit with that time if you consider a fatty meal , one that extended over a couple of hours and a digestive system halted by the stress encountered at the cottage. Pull all those posts up for me will you. Thanks

No. They would not.

Firstly, the transit time is determined by the start of the meal. If the meal lasted for 2 hours (which it didn't, incidentally), that's irrelevant. The only relevant time is the start of proper ingestion (in this instance, the start of eating of the pizza). There is plenty of literature available on this if you care to look, and it's been cited here plenty of times before. Oh, and it's common sense too, if you stop to think about the necessary mechanics of digestion (for example, if one ate a meal in very small regular mouthfuls over 8 hours, would the first mouthful be held up in the stomach all that time...?).

Secondly, it's time to nail this nonsense about "stress" and transit once and for all. Again, it's well-enough documented if you care to look. The actual evidence is that extreme stress, fear or trauma can slow down digestive transit slightly, and transit stops completely when the individual is very close to death. It is factually impossible that someone can be held at a state of terror for an hour or more, such that their digestive motility stops completely. Impossible.

If Meredith Kercher's gastric motility was slowed on that night, it would a) have been only slightly slowed (apart from in the moments before her death,when it would have slowed to a stop as her body shut down), b) have occurred only over a very short period of time (minutes at most), and c) have required her to be in a state of extreme terror - a state that would never last for more than minutes anyhow.

Therefore, this temporary, only-slight slowing of motility has almost no practical bearing in assessing the ToD in this case. Meredith Kercher was almost certainly attacked and killed before 9.30pm. It is 100% impossible - given the evidence - that Meredith Kercher was attacked any later than 10.30pm.

 

[LondonJohn]

So folks, may I ask, is there any merit to these 3 points? I am certain they have been covered at least 25 times before here. Valid points, or is this a lost cause in terms of use of time?

I was under the impression that the 1) fatty meal was not scientifically supported, as well as 2) the duration of the meal inasmuch as it is the start time of the meal that is relevant. As for #3 the argument would have to be that the stress started very close to 9 pm and somehow slowed or postponed the movement of initial chyme into the duodenum. I will take pointers on these. My impression is that this argument/discussion is going nowhere, but will gladly accept redirection.

My post above on this matter was a crossover with this post of yours

But I forgot to mention that the "fatty meal" thing is also a misdirection (intentionally or otherwise...). We know for certain what Meredith ate that night in the part of the meal that counts. It was a typical mixed-food-group meal of pizza: bread, cheese, vegetables and tomato sauce. We also know that recognisable elements of these food groups were found in Meredith's stomach. If Meredith had eaten a packet of butter or a deep-fried Mars Bar, then it might be appropriate to even mention the "fatty meal" issue - even though there's enough research to suggest that very high-fat meals such as these are only digested marginally more slowly than a "normal" mixed-food-group meal.

 

[Welshman]

Briars says Amanda is guilty because of her character. When you have to resort to character assassination this is a clear indication of a weak case.

If you want to talk about behaviour, there are questions which need to be asked if Amanda and Raffaele were guilty. If Amanda and Raffaele had killed Meredith, why did they go to the cottage the next morning and call the police with all the risks this inolved. We have a strange scenario where Amanda and Raffaele call the police to report a murder they have committed. Why did Amanda not flee to the United States when she had the chance? In the period between the discovery of the body and the interrogations, the phone conversation of Amanda and Raffaele were monitored. Not a single incriminating thing was said in these conversations. Is it credible that a couple can go for three days with saying a single incriminating thing after committing a brutal sexual assault and murder?

 

[acbytesla]

LOL major find!! did it happen at 10:00 or 10:15 . I moved closer to 10 :15 to account for the near collision Guede had with the witness around 10:30.TOD and stomach contents would fit with that time if you consider a fatty meal , one that extended over a couple of hours and a digestive system halted by the stress encountered at the cottage. Pull all those posts up for me will you. Thanks

So how do you conclude that Amanda and Raffaele had anything to do with the crime?

Of course you are totally ignoring the strange phone calls made at 9:58, 10:00 and 10:13. Not to mention that the people that the black men ran into going up the stairs said it was NOT Rudy. So you believe them when they say they bumped into a black man going up those stairs but not when they say it wasn't Rudy?

Where are Amanda and Raffaele? How do you even place them at scene even at 10:00 PM? If you believe Curatolo, they are at the Piazza at this time.

Seriously Briars, don't you see that your conclusion that the murder took place at say around 10:15, you have just eliminated all the "ear witnesses and Curatolo?

 

[Mary_H]

When I scrolled quickly through these pages on my phone, all I could see was pictures of cats! 13 felines on the previous page and 11 felines on this page. Me-ow!

 

[billyryan]

No. They would not.

Firstly, the transit time is determined by the start of the meal. If the meal lasted for 2 hours (which it didn't, incidentally), that's irrelevant. The only relevant time is the start of proper ingestion (in this instance, the start of eating of the pizza). There is plenty of literature available on this if you care to look, and it's been cited here plenty of times before. Oh, and it's common sense too, if you stop to think about the necessary mechanics of digestion (for example, if one ate a meal in very small regular mouthfuls over 8 hours, would the first mouthful be held up in the stomach all that time...?).

Secondly, it's time to nail this nonsense about "stress" and transit once and for all. Again, it's well-enough documented if you care to look. The actual evidence is that extreme stress, fear or trauma can slow down digestive transit slightly, and transit stops completely when the individual is very close to death. It is factually impossible that someone can be held at a state of terror for an hour or more, such that their digestive motility stops completely. Impossible.

If Meredith Kercher's gastric motility was slowed on that night, it would a) have been only slightly slowed (apart from in the moments before her death,when it would have slowed to a stop as her body shut down), b) have occurred only over a very short period of time (minutes at most), and c) have required her to be in a state of extreme terror - a state that would never last for more than minutes anyhow.

Therefore, this temporary, only-slight slowing of motility has almost no practical bearing in assessing the ToD in this case. Meredith Kercher was almost certainly attacked and killed before 9.30pm. It is 100% impossible - given the evidence - that Meredith Kercher was attacked any later than 10.30pm.

That is why in a fair court you make the case for an assault starting immediately after Meredith arrived home,or you withdraw the charges,despite smashing four computers to deny Amanda and Raffaele the chance to prove their alibi the prosecution cannot come up with any evidence that puts them in the cottage by 9pm

 

[Dougm]

Suppose that the putative semen stain had been tested in a demonstrably competent lab and been shown to be semen and to be from Raffaele. Or suppose that the kitchen knife had been opened up and shown to contain Meredith's blood. Either of those two would have been enough to convert me from a belief in innocence to a belief in guilt (particularly the second one). There are other examples, as LondonJohn pointed out IIRC.

An inability to absorb new data and to respond accordingly is a hallmark of a lack of critical thinking. IMO instead of concentrating on doubts, you should pose the question as "What evidence would have to be different in order for you to change your mind?" And you should ask PGP as well as PIP.

EDT
Beyond the stomach/duodenum issue, there is a mountain of missing evidence in this case, by which I mean things that should be there if the pair were guilty, but are not. Where is the CCTV footage of Knox and Sollecito going out? Where are their bloody clothes? Where are their bloody shoe prints? It is the differential of evidence against Guede when compared with the evidence against the pair that is so telling IMO.

This is similar to the way I think, and a pretty good description of how I moved from "there is not enough evidence against them" to "they are clearly innocent". I don't normally become convinced for sure that anyone is guilty or innocent, but in this case I came to the conclusion that there is a stronger case to prove they are innocent than there is to prove they are guilty.

If Amanda Knox came out and admitted to committing the murder today, I would want to have her explain how she could have done it and left the evidence as it is. There is no believable evidence she was present at the cottage at the time of the murder, and quite a bit of missing evidence that should be there if she was.

 

[RoseMontague]

So folks, may I ask, is there any merit to these 3 points? I am certain they have been covered at least 25 times before here. Valid points, or is this a lost cause in terms of use of time?

I was under the impression that the 1) fatty meal was not scientifically supported, as well as 2) the duration of the meal inasmuch as it is the start time of the meal that is relevant. As for #3 the argument would have to be that the stress started very close to 9 pm and somehow slowed or postponed the movement of initial chyme into the duodenum. I will take pointers on these. My impression is that this argument/discussion is going nowhere, but will gladly accept redirection.

This also contradicts both Curatolo who saw them continuously until around midnight and Nara who heard the scream much later as well.

 

[Mary_H]

This is similar to the way I think, and a pretty good description of how I moved from "there is not enough evidence against them" to "they are clearly innocent". I don't normally become convinced for sure that anyone is guilty or innocent, but in this case I came to the conclusion that there is a stronger case to prove they are innocent than there is to prove they are guilty.

If Amanda Knox came out and admitted to committing the murder today, I would want to have her explain how she could have done it and left the evidence as it is. There is no believable evidence she was present at the cottage at the time of the murder, and quite a bit of missing evidence that should be there if she was.

Thus dashing your hopes to serve on the police force in Perugia.

 

[RoseMontague]

What I was actually wondering, is if there were people who had doubts on either side of the divide.

So have you gone over to PMF and TJMK and asked them as well?

 

[Bill Williams]

LOL major find!! did it happen at 10:00 or 10:15 . I moved closer to 10 :15 to account for the near collision Guede had with the witness around 10:30.TOD and stomach contents would fit with that time if you consider a fatty meal , one that extended over a couple of hours and a digestive system halted by the stress encountered at the cottage. Pull all those posts up for me will you. Thanks

So folks, may I ask, is there any merit to these 3 points? I am certain they have been covered at least 25 times before here. Valid points, or is this a lost cause in terms of use of time?

I was under the impression that the 1) fatty meal was not scientifically supported, as well as 2) the duration of the meal inasmuch as it is the start time of the meal that is relevant. As for #3 the argument would have to be that the stress started very close to 9 pm and somehow slowed or postponed the movement of initial chyme into the duodenum. I will take pointers on these. My impression is that this argument/discussion is going nowhere, but will gladly accept redirection.

I will defer to anyone on this issue, heck I'd even defer to Briars if he/she could provide one cite for his/her views.

But until I hear different, my own brief reading of this says that the digesiton clock starts at the beginning of the meal. The digestion clock does not wait until some future stresser comes along....

And the reading says that it takes about 2 hours for food in the stomach to be digested... meaning that if there was food in the poor victim's stomach, and the last she ate was at 7 pm, that the T.O.D here could be pinned at 9:30 pm or thereabouts.

Again, I'll defer to anyone else really on this. The bit about fatty foods or a stresser just does not factor in here... what Briars is suggesting is that digestion actually reversed itself...... either that or that the stresser started exactly at the same time as the meal.....

What am I doing wrong by saying that?

 

[Mary_H]

So have you gone over to PMF and TJMK and asked them as well?

I gave him a list last night of some of the facts the pro-guilt faction had a loose grip on and eventually had to change their ideas about, but he seems to have missed my post.

I guess those can't really be counted as doubts, though, as the faithful held very tightly to them until they could not possibly hold any longer.