Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[AmyStrange]

Seriously, dude. Get some help.

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Yup, here's the shortened version, "Rudy is a SAINT!!!!, but that blah blah blah blah blah blah witch Amanda is evil,"

d

(ETA: reminds me of that fake sign language interpreter at Mandela's funeral, and also that opening SNL skit that made fun of it)
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[Bill Williams]

These constant comparisons of Seattle to the more unsavory aspects of your country's culture and history let on far more about you and your worldview than you seem ready or able to process. Ted Bundy and the Green River killer notwithstanding, please do let us know when Seattle begins to compete with Sicily in terms of exporting organized crime and criminality.

But again, what on earth does this have to do with the price of tea in China, aside, apparently for its usefulness to you as a point of departure to vent spleen? In six years of nauseating repetition - and, now, amusingly, variation, as you transmogrify from a supporter of Massei and Mignini, to the substantially divergent Crini - you have yet to produce a single cogent post that might convince a skeptic of your thesis. Let me repeat and augment that for clarity: not one single, solitary convincing *point*, much less a convincing post. You are at the tip of the spear amongst your ilk in the business of your argumentation being an object lesson as to why *Amanda Knox is not guilty*.

Edited by jhunter1163: 

Moderated content removed.

I hereby take back all the allegations I have thrown at Machiavelli that he is a stooge for Mignini.... He's now, apparently, a stooge for Crini!

ETA - and if this will pass mod scrutiny, a tad unhinged. I beg the mods to actually read Machiavelli's post before disciplining me for saying it!

 

[Strozzi]

I hereby take back all the allegations I have thrown at Machiavelli that he is a stooge for Mignini.... He's now, apparently, a stooge for Crini!

ETA - and if this will pass mod scrutiny, a tad unhinged. I beg the mods to actually read Machiavelli's post before disciplining me for saying it!

Bill, you are confused. Leave Machiavelli out of it. The guy you want to criticize is a guy named Yummi.

 

[Bill Williams]

Machiavelli, get some sleep. You are not at your best at this time in the middle of the night. Seriously, man, get some help.

 

[AmyStrange]

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Edited by jhunter1163: 

Moderated content removed.

These constant comparisons of Seattle to the more unsavory aspects of your country's culture and history let on far more about you and your worldview than you seem ready or able to process. Ted Bundy and the Green River killer notwithstanding, please do let us know when Seattle begins to compete with Sicily in terms of exporting organized crime and criminality.

But again, what on earth does this have to do with the price of tea in China, aside, apparently for its usefulness to you as a point of departure to vent spleen? In six years of nauseating repetition - and, now, amusingly, variation, as you transmogrify from a supporter of Massei and Mignini, to the substantially divergent Crini - you have yet to produce a single cogent post that might convince a skeptic of your thesis. Let me repeat and augment that for clarity: not one single, solitary convincing *point*, much less a convincing post. You are at the tip of the spear amongst your ilk in the business of your argumentation being an object lesson as to why *Amanda Knox is not guilty*.

Edited by jhunter1163: 

Moderated content removed.

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YAY! JS202! Well said. Even withstanding all that at the end, I STILL LUV ITALY!!! It's an awesome country!!! I'd love to go visit. Unfortunately, I can't see going there if I'm going to end up eating half-cooked pizza without toppings.

You'd think, of all the places in the world, that Italy would know how to cook their topping-free pizza bread right?

Maybe it's just me,

d

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[moije2]

The first witness who brought information about the prank gave precise information, described an assault wearing ski masks. He/she did not talk about a "rape" prank. But information about date location and context were precise, not made up, so why should I assume the detail about ski masks should be false?
You that are sure what the witness said was not what happened? Why not the sky masks?
Amanda Knox didn't even answr abou the ski mask disguise in her first answer. That was an admission, but it was oily, evasive, a mention offering vague indications, saying what was not rather than what it was, and adding re-framing with judgemental statement - so not a clear answer to the things said by poster Celeste, not a description but half a description, half an admission of something.
Then in a following comment a couple of days later she offered the tiny additional bit of info that the prank "did not include" a dressing up.
But should we believe her?

Yet, she admitted to "shock" and "distress".
And the Daily Mail might get everyghint wrong, but it did not get wrong the stone throwing on the road, the administrative fine, the police report and the name of the officer.

At this point, maybe you fail to understand what the problem is.
I am talking from the point of view of an Italian, and I am talking to the Knox supporters. Those who were claiming that the story was a lie, that what trully happened is different.

How do you know that what happened was different? If you actually knew something happened and it was something "totally different", how did it happen that you didn't talk about it before?

Do you know what's the real problem with all this, in my view?
What is more meaningful to me, what is more striking and infurating, but above all more revealing, is that a group Knox's Seattle acquaintances knew everything about robbery prank, they well knew the story was true. At least 5-10 people knew everything about it from the beginning which means everyone knew something happened.
You say that what happened is not what was told by the "guilters".

But what the Seattle community around Knox told was SILENCE!

The truth might have been story different from a "rape prank" or different from "ski masks".
But the group of Seattellite acquaintances, they did not come out saying "this is what happened, it was something different, this is the truth".
The truth might have been a story that hase differences from the rumors.
But SILENCE WAS NOT THE TRUTH! Neither!

Ski masks may be false, may be "lie" (maybe), "rape" might be wrong, might be "lie".

But .... SILENCE WAS A LIE TOO

Edited by jhunter1163: 

Moderated content removed.

This was a truly extraordinary post. Bold and font changes to boot.

 

[AmyStrange]

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Bill, you are confused. Leave Machiavelli out of it. The guy you want to criticize is a guy named Yummi.

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I wonder if Yummi is short for that song... how's it go... oh yeah, "Yummi, Yummi, Yummi I got uncooked bread in my Tummi",

d

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[Poppy1016]

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YAY! JS202! Well said. Even withstanding all that at the end, I STILL LUV ITALY!!! It's an awesome country!!! I'd love to go visit. Unfortunately, I can't see going there if I'm going to end up eating half-cooked pizza without toppings.

You'd think, of all the places in the world, that Italy would know how to cook their topping-free pizza bread right?

Maybe it's just me,

d


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I was researching my Ialian heritage and wanted to someday travel to Italy. Now I have ceased all research and I will never go to Italy. I am somewhat ashamed of my Italian heritage an the country in general.

 

[AmyStrange]

Italy's PIZZA SUCKS!!!

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I was researching my Ialian heritage and wanted to someday travel to Italy. Now I have ceased all research and I will never go to Italy. I am somewhat ashamed of my Italian heritage an the country in general.

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It's still a beautiful country, it's just their uncooked pizzas (with no toppings) that suck!

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[AmyStrange]

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I was researching my Ialian heritage and wanted to someday travel to Italy. Now I have ceased all research and I will never go to Italy. I am somewhat ashamed of my Italian heritage an the country in general.

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Poppy, nothing wrong with being Italian. I won't hold it against you,

d

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[RandyN]

Originally Posted by Charlie Wilkes View Post
On the contrary, the claim that Guede committed a sexual assault after cutting Meredith's throat is based purely on physical evidence, as opposed to a feeble tissue of speculation about what could have happened.

Yummi says...
"With due respect you seem to grossly ignore the implication of physical evidence related to the autopsy. You called Meredith's assault a "brief confrontation". You simply ignore the existence of a whole pattern of injuries.

Then you also sweep away the needed explanation of other evidence, like the blood traces in bathroom and bathmat, modus operandi etc.

The problem is that your reasoning is the following: you place a Guede-alone scenario as axiome, and the rest gets rationalized upon it in the most vague and improbable and unfounded ways, or ignored."

Which part of the physical evidence related to the autopsy? You often mention this "evidence" but then you never elaborate just what this autopsy evidence is. As someone who has assisted in 1000 plus autopsies I have a little experience in these exams...so what are you referring to? Because...

This is key for me. Aspirated blood droplets on the outside of the bra. Plus aspirated blood droplets on the bare breasts. Those two bits of evidence tell a huge part of the story.

Meanwhile, your baseless speculation about number and location of wounds and how that indicates multiple attackers is just that... meaningless words and quite frankly wrong!

And then to argue in spite of the overwhelming evidence against Guede that his crime is somehow odd and rare is just crazy. It is quite easy to come up with a 100 cases of attacks on women in their homes that involved murder and some sort of sick sex...your own MOF removed female genitals right? A robbery turned attack with sexual violence and murder is dead common frankly.

OTOH a 4 way sexual game of ritualistic (day after Halloween according to Mignini) All Saints Day or Day of the Dead or whatever that idiot was trying to peddle is rare as hens teeth. Now add double knives, and staged break-in and a whole slew of suspicious police and prosecutor misconduct and you can start to add things up quite easily. (this would be called your rare case)

Corrupt fools trying to cover up major blunders...starting with allowing Guede the freedom to kill Miss Kercher when he should have been sitting in a jail cell waiting for his trial for burglary in a school with a deadly weapon. But no...something strange goes on in Milan and Perugia.

This is the case investigators and reporters should track down. Why is Guede not even arrested? No one brings a case against him? How is it possible? How does Mignini charge everyone except his own mother in this case but a week or two earlier he lets a dangerous, caught red handed, criminal roam free to kill a young innocent girl? There is your crime... and there is your motive to cover it up with a ludicrous case against innocent persons. The police and prosecutors of Milan and Perugia have much to hide IMHO.

 

[Mary_H]

The first witness who brought information about the prank gave precise information, described an assault wearing ski masks. He/she did not talk about a "rape" prank. But information about date location and context were precise, not made up, so why should I assume the detail about ski masks should be false?
You that are sure what the witness said was not what happened? Why not the sky masks?
<snip>

Edited by jhunter1163: 

Moderated content removed.

I see what you're driving at, Mach, but I don't think your description of the community is accurate. Regarding the supporters, none of us in Seattle knew each other before this all began, and it took even longer to get connected with the family, much less Amanda. Our participation was based on principle, not personal connections.

There is a Seattle Prep community, but it is diverse and diffuse. Kids come from all over the county to go to school there, and most of them don't live close enough to walk to school, that is, the school is not in their neighborhoods. Some families may bond over their kids' enrollment in school, but they did not necessarily grow up together or have "family ties." Judge Heavey lives near Amanda's family, but their daughters didn't know each until they both went to Prep.

My son did not go to Prep, but when he was in grade school, he went to a birthday party and the mother of the birthday boy told me that when she looked at the kids in her van, she realized there were students from six separate schools in there. That's the way it is -- kids get to know each other from intermittent outside activities -- which is not incestuous.

Not only that, but we have had many non-white officials running our state and our city, from the governor to the mayor to the county executive. And guess what -- many of their children have gone to Prep.

You have gotten a sense of there being an evil connection between Seattle Prep and Seattle's "elite" because of Skeptical Bystander's long-running rants about it. But she grew up in a different time, and the standards she was offended by are no longer in play. While a large percentage of the kids who go to Prep are not Catholic, the Jesuits still place Catholicism at the top of their list of priorities. The "elite" leaders SB fears now go to private, non-Catholic schools, like Lakeside, which produced Bill Gates and Paul Allen.

As for the silence, so few people in the supporters group knew Amanda or anything about her that there was no knowledge to withhold. That said, what supporters in their right minds publicize detrimental information about an INNOCENT defendant? It just isn't done. If that one person came forward to talk about this supposedly scandalous incident, then that was obviously one person with an axe to grind, because nobody else had anything bad to say about Amanda.

By the way -- this part of your post?

Tens of people knew, the "group" knows very well. Even the idiot Douglas Preston candidly tells in preface to Spezi's book about Tom Wright toelling him: "Obviously we, her family and their friends will always defend her anyway, independently from what the evidence looks like".

No matter what the evidence is.

You mischaracterize what he said, completely changing the meaning of his words.

You get upset about us not understanding your culture, but the fact is, you are judging Amanda from a place of not understanding her culture. And on account of that gap, the damage to her is much greater than the damage to you.

P.S. Mafia? PIP are the ones keeping a file full of actual physical threats posted by PGP, not vice versa.

 

[AmyStrange]

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Originally Posted by Charlie Wilkes View Post
On the contrary, the claim that Guede committed a sexual assault after cutting Meredith's throat is based purely on physical evidence, as opposed to a feeble tissue of speculation about what could have happened.

Yummi says...
With due respect you seem to grossly ignore the implication of physical evidence related to the autopsy. You called Meredith's assault a "brief confrontation". You simply ignore the existence of a whole pattern of injuries.

Then you also sweep away the needed explanation of other evidence, like the blood traces in bathroom and bathmat, modus operandi etc.

The problem is that your reasoning is the following: you place a Guede-alone scenario as axiome, and the rest gets rationalized upon it in the most vague and improbable and unfounded ways, or ignored."

Which part of the physical evidence related to the autopsy? You often mention this "evidence" but then you never elaborate just what this autopsy evidence is. As someone who has assisted in 1000 plus autopsies I have a little experience in these exams...so what are you referring to? Because...

This is key for me. Aspirated blood droplets on the outside of the bra. Plus aspirated blood droplets on the bare breasts. Those two bits of evidence tell a huge part of the story.

Meanwhile, your baseless speculation about number and location of wounds and how that indicates multiple attackers is just that... meaningless words and quite frankly wrong!

And then to argue in spite of the overwhelming evidence against Guede that his crime is somehow odd and rare is just crazy. It is quite easy to come up with a 100 cases of attacks on women in their homes that involved murder and some sort of sick sex...your own MOF removed female genitals right? A robbery turned attack with sexual violence and murder is dead common frankly.

OTOH a 4 way sexual game of ritualistic (day after Halloween according to Mignini) All Saints Day or Day of the Dead or whatever that idiot was trying to peddle is rare as hens teeth. Now add double knives, and staged break-in and a whole slew of suspicious police and prosecutor misconduct and you can start to add things up quite easily. (this would be called your rare case)
Corrupt fools trying to cover up major blunders...starting with allowing Guede the freedom to kill Miss Kercher when he should have been sitting in a jail cell waiting for his trial for burglary in a school with a deadly weapon. But no...something strange goes on in Milan and Perugia.

This is the case investigators and reporters should track down. Why is Guede not even arrested? No one brings a case against him? How is it possible? How does Mignini charge everyone except his own mother in this case but a week or two earlier he lets a dangerous, caught red handed, criminal roam free to kill a young innocent girl? There is your crime... and there is your motive to cover it up with a ludicrous case against innocent persons. The police and prosecutors of Milan and Perugia have much to hide IMHO.

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WOW!!! That's what I was trying to say earlier, but you said it way better...

d

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[Poppy1016]

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Poppy. you should fix that part of your reply that you mistakenly added to the end of my quote....

Nothing wrong with being Italian. I won't hold it against you,

d

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Sorry about the posting error .

 

[toto]

The first witness who brought information about the prank gave precise information, described an assault wearing ski masks. He/she did not talk about a "rape" prank. But information about date location and context were precise, not made up, so why should I assume the detail about ski masks should be false?
You that are sure what the witness said was not what happened? Why not the sky masks?
Amanda Knox didn't even answr abou the ski mask disguise in her first answer. That was an admission, but it was oily, evasive, a mention offering vague indications, saying what was not rather than what it was, and adding re-framing with judgemental statement - so not a clear answer to the things said by poster Celeste, not a description but half a description, half an admission of something.
Then in a following comment a couple of days later she offered the tiny additional bit of info that the prank "did not include" a dressing up.
But should we believe her?

Yet, she admitted to "shock" and "distress".
And the Daily Mail might get everyghint wrong, but it did not get wrong the stone throwing on the road, the administrative fine, the police report and the name of the officer.

At this point, maybe you fail to understand what the problem is.
I am talking from the point of view of an Italian, and I am talking to the Knox supporters. Those who were claiming that the story was a lie, that what trully happened is different.

How do you know that what happened was different? If you actually knew something happened and it was something "totally different", how did it happen that you didn't talk about it before?

Do you know what's the real problem with all this, in my view?
What is more meaningful to me, what is more striking and infurating, but above all more revealing, is that a group Knox's Seattle acquaintances knew everything about robbery prank, they well knew the story was true. At least 5-10 people knew everything about it from the beginning which means everyone knew something happened.
You say that what happened is not what was told by the "guilters".

But what the Seattle community around Knox told was SILENCE!

The truth might have been story different from a "rape prank" or different from "ski masks".
But the group of Seattellite acquaintances, they did not come out saying "this is what happened, it was something different, this is the truth".
The truth might have been a story that hase differences from the rumors.
But SILENCE WAS NOT THE TRUTH! Neither!

Ski masks may be false, may be "lie" (maybe), "rape" might be wrong, might be "lie".

But .... SILENCE WAS A LIE TOO

Edited by jhunter1163: 

Moderated content removed.

I think you might make your point against Amanda Knox better if you can provide primary source evidence or press/television sources of people who have encountered her before she went to Italy who have nasty or suspicious stories about her. This is 6? years later so there should be quite a collection. Or even if you only have one good example perhaps you could kindly provide the link(s). Speaking from a U.K perspective I do not think someone once convicted of murder (even if subsequently acquitted as Amanda was, and hopefully will be again) would escape all sorts of stories in the press. I posted a link a few days back about a retired English teacher who was arrested and subsequently exonerated about a young woman's murder. Suddenly every throwing of the piece of chalk at someone's head was brought up (with it has to be said some rather puzzled responses that could only really admit of some eccentricity).
I sometimes find your posts quite encouraging because it seems that an acquittal of Knox and Sollecito just has to be the result if this is the best that the PGP community can come up with.

 

[acbytesla]

I think experienced police detectives or persecutors should have realized that they had two pieces of clock evidence: 1) the ATM's timestamped cash withdrawal and 2) the ATM camera's timestamped photo. The detective should have verified that the clocks which gave the same time were in true or false synch. The two clocks read the same time, but one was two minutes off and showed different people in the image. (if I recall correctly, the actual murder's photo was recorded and time stamped by the ATM camera 2 minutes off the cash withdrawal time stamp.)

And I can't understand why the child who was traveling with her grandmother was assumed to be involved even if she stood near her grandmother at the ATM. The murder did not take place at or very near the ATM.

Thirdly, the murder and ATM cash withdrawal both occurred in a Maryland suburb of Washington DC. Maryland issued arrest warrants and extradition requests to police in Texas for the arrest and extradition of the grandmother and 14 year old girl, both of whom lived in Texas. So to compound things, they were arrested by Texas police working with an extradition request from Maryland. The Texas police had no knowledge of the Maryland detective's evidence or basis for the charge, so had no way to consider the evidence to know if it was reasonable. Texas just had the Maryland arrest extradition order and Maryland extradition request to go on. (Premonition of what is to come in attempted extradition of Amanda???)

OK, Now I'm convinced. Thanks for the additional information Strozzi.

 

[Antony]

If all posters on this forums at once declare now that they don't belive Lumumba was ever mistreated by the police as teh Daily Mail says, then I will "learn" it.

Otherwise, I will think that you decide to believe the Daily Mail rather selectively.

As are you.

Of course, our basis for choosing what to believe is whether particular details are credible, or are corroborated by known facts. Your basis for choosing is entirely whether or not it supports your POV.

The beating and abuse that PL was subjected to, and reported by the Daily Mail, is credible because neither he nor the newspaper are likely to make it up (and in fact other details in the same story are much less credible). The story about the stone-throwing is pretty much the exact opposite, given that there is a long catalogue of false reporting unfavourable to AK and RS, and favourable to the prosecution against them. The assessment of credibility has to be made in this context.

I point out btw that Knox supporters were calling the April fool prank story "a lie" for years, until a week ago.

Of course in the form put about by the anti-Knox campaign, it was very much lies. The actual version, clarified by Amanda herself, is rather benign.

 

[NancyS]

The trouble with this, Machiavelli, is that you are painting Meredith as a very petty vindictive person... NO ONE believes that....

It's so beyond offensive to the memory of Meredith. Are we now expected to believe that the kind, sensitive and non- confrontational Meredith was so outraged that her flatmate had some friends over, between 9-10pm and on a holiday weekend - that she started a big argument that so humiliated Amanda it induced her to murderous rage?

This is the same Meredith that stumbled home very drunk at 4am, which probably isn't the most considerate thing to do in a flatshare - but most students aren't bat-**** crazy about this stuff in the way the prosecution seem to imply

The Pro-Rudy arguments and the attempts to completely minimise his involvement is another sickening insult to Meredith. His DNA was found inside her vagina, yet he's all but forgotten.

 

[toto]

If all posters on this forums at once declare now that they don't belive Lumumba was ever mistreated by the police as teh Daily Mail says, then I will "learn" it.

Otherwise, I will think that you decide to believe the Daily Mail rather selectively.

I point out btw that Knox supporters were calling the April fool prank story "a lie" for years, until a week ago.

Is this the Lumumba accusation we are talking about?

Lumumba revealed this information in an interview with the Daily Mail and later
confirmed the details with Katie Crouch from Slate.com.


“I was questioned by five men and women, some of whom punched and kicked me. They
forced me on my knees against the wall and said I should be in America where I would
be given the electric chair for my crime. All they kept saying was, ‘You did it, you did it.’”

“I didn’t know what I’d ‘done’. I was scared and humiliated. Then, after a couple of hours
one of them suggested they show me a picture of ‘the dead girl’ to get me to confess.”

“It might sound naive, but it was only then that I made the connection between
Meredith’s death and my arrest. Stunned, I said, You think I killed Meredith?”​

http://groundreport.com/greed-continues-to-fuel-patrick-lumumbas-hatred-toward-amanda-knox/

(I would concede it would be better if I could provide the actual link to the Slate article)

ETA
Though I did find this:
http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/2011/09/my_amanda_knox_obsession.html

And what a story it was. Because of Knox's accusations, he was ripped away from his young son in the middle of the night, interrogated, beaten, and held in solitary confinement for 14 days.​

 

[lionking]

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