Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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I apologize Grinder

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FWIW, here is a snippet of the relevant part of the case. It's actually from 2012. The whole text can probably be found on line somewhere. The case is Feusier-Marquez v. Torres 2012 WL 1203360. It is an unpublished decision.
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Thank you HB. A quick reading maintains that you are right Grinder, I was wrong, and I apologize,

d

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This was a craze when I was at university. It went as far as swapping every bit of furniture to some other person's room. I heard one story of removing everything from someone's first floor room and setting it up in the room directly below on the ground floor. They got the guy from the first floor room very drunk and took him to the ground floor room - which looked exactly like his room but on the ground floor - and as he was drunk he thought it was his room. His lovely friends then threw him out the window, which he thought was a good 3m off the ground :eye-poppi

Young students are often idiots, but I don't think silly pranks are an indicator of becoming a murderer

When I went to the University of Washington, the same school as Amanda, we were always playing elaborate pranks. We stole my roommates car and actually put it inside the building. The guy freaked out, he called the police even. He was so mad at me that we didn't talk for a week.
 
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Thank you HB. A quick reading maintains that you are right Grinder, I was wrong, and I apologize,

d

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Keep in mind, that first case is a district court case and is not binding on the district court in Washington, although that and the other decisions certainly has persuasive authority. It's possible another district court would disagree. Specifically, it is possible that the District Court for the Western District of Washington would feel differently.

I will say this, if it ever comes to an extradition proceeding, the double jeopardy argument will definitely be made. Based on the case law from other district courts and courts of appeal, it's still a very long shot given the lack of favorable case law, but it's still possible.
 
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I may be wrong about double jeopardy and retrials, but the problem with your cite is I can't find the specific cases anywhere, but it is interesting that many of my cites do say "double jeopardy" is the way to go and NONE of these lawyers cite the case you talk about.

PLUS, even though your quote is everywhere, they are all copy and paste (word for exact word) jobs without any type of specific information regarding the specific reasons double jeopardy had no merit, plus no specific case is ever cited or where the original quote comes from. This is troubling for me, because it reminds me of all the cut and paste jobs Harry Rag was involved with.

I've also seen this kind of thing when investigating unexplained phenomena where a quote about a specific event is word for word pasted in books and websites for years, but when we (me and my website co-writer) went to find the original source (old newspapers etc.) dates and general information were drastically wrong (The whole "Jacko" fiasco in Canada for example, where the year of the article quoted everywhere was off by one year exactly). You can read about our exploits and conclusions in that case here:

http://www.amystrange.org/UNX-sasquatch.html#1884

I'm now going to see if I can find the original source for this specific case by seeing if there is a website documenting the 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in New York. If that fails, there is a free law library downtown open to the public that I'll visit when I have the chance. The librarians there are very friendly and helpful. It's a pleasure to talk to them about things like this.

Until then, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and I will apologize if I am wrong. It's too bad very few people here or anywhere (esp. PGP sites) do this kind of thing, especially if their investigation proves them wrong,

d

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I truly appreciate your efforts on this and the open discussion. This has been brought up a number of times.

I would say that these 'legal experts' that posit DJ as a way out, should be able to find one example of this happening in similar circumstances.

Being a US citizen doesn't bestow those rights we enjoy to other countries.
 
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Neither of them are Italy, although you did not state if the one wanted for extradition was a US citizen or not.

d

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I think this is the issue. This circumstance is different. I don't think Amanda will ever be extradited, but I don't think it will be because of double jeopardy although I believe that should be a good enough reason, regardless of how the courts have ruled. My perspective is both the Canadian and Mexican case as well as others are pure examples of the the court overstepping its authority and revising the US Constitution.

The problem with all our speculation regarding this issue, is there really has never been a case like this. Italy is different than Canada and Mexico. But I don't think the court would want to create the precedent which would overturn those case. So I think they would seek another way to refuse extradition.
 
As short as possible....

Trial started Sept 30. Kerchers wrote a heartfelt letter to the court asking that all evidence be tested. Incredibly not only were most retesting requests denied, Maresca, the Kerchers' lawyer, also opposed some testing.

First item was the con Aveillo, who had once said that his brother had done the deed. Prosecutors had claimed the Sollecito family had paid off Aveillo. Aveillo showed up in court midway through a sex-reassignment, and basically told the same story, denied being paid off by the Sollecitos.

Next up was the RIS Carabinieri being tasked with finding the composition and ownership of sample 36i on the kitchen knife. They said it belonged to Amanda Knox, ending the forensic interest of that knife. More importantly, the RIS Carabinieri brought to court all their work, including the EDFs, which they did not need to be asked for. Implication is that Stefanoni's still-missing EDFs from 2009 are NOT the way to do things....

My opinion is that in response to this, Prosecutor Crini then claimed that the kitchen knife is a match for the bedsheet outline in blood of what Mignini had called, the second knife. Even though that knife matches no wounds, Crini for some reason still needs it as part of his case. Other guilters don't use the word "match", but just that the outline (now) cannot be ruled out as belonging to the kitchen knife. Still, why that keeps that knife in this case is beyond me.

Crini also seemed to waver on tine-of-death, not ruling out an early one. If true, then why the need even to listen to Curatolo?

Amanda Knox from Seattle had a letter to the court read protesting her innocence. Raffaele appeared in court (Nov 5?) and exercised his right to speak. He was in court again on Jan 9.

On Nov 6, when Raffaele was heading out of Italy, the airplane was briefly held on the tarmac pending info on his mobility rights. No less than prosecutor Crini said that Raffaele was free to come and go from the country as he pleased, and the plane took off out of the country.

Despite Cassazione quashing the Hellmann acquittals partly on the grounds that the "sex game gone wrong" motive/scenario had not been properly investigated/ruled out, Prosecutor Crini reinvented the whole crime with yet another scenario/motive. He ventured the opinion that the dispute between Meredith and Amanda (leading to murder) began with Rudy's pooh in Filomena's/Laura's toilet. AFAIK Crini presented no evidence that this, yet another motive was true. Prosecutors, it seems, get to play fantasy. Like seems to happen in Italy he said it and said it could not be ruled out. Why prosecutor's are allowed to say things like that is beyond me - it also cannot be ruled out that travel faster than the speed of light is possible either.

Very little, really, of the points set out by last March's Cassazione quashing has made it, publically, into court. Prosecution gets a final closing on Jan 20, and verdict is scheduled for Jan 30.

That's as short as I can make it - others can add or correct as necessary.

Thank you, thank you! I caught wind of a few items through the mainstream press, but hadn't heard a peep about others.

So the only NEW evidence was the Aveillo testimony and RIS Carabinieri DNA testing and testimony?

The prosecution's theories show up in the mainstream press, but I haven't seen a single report about the defense. Are they presenting a strong case? I would think by this point, they'd have pulled together solid, compelling arguments for innocence and against BS.

But hmm... guess not. Or is the serious-looking discussion of extradition issues not as ominous (ha!) as I fear it might be.

I glanced at some confusing stuff about the case being kicked to another court? I didn't catch the meaning and don't have time figure it out.

I hate to be so out-of-the-loop at the eleventh hour. OTOH, it's possible this is but the fourth hour...

Thanks again. Mach's twitter ID?
 
I truly appreciate your efforts on this and the open discussion. This has been brought up a number of times.

I would say that these 'legal experts' that posit DJ as a way out, should be able to find one example of this happening in similar circumstances.

Being a US citizen doesn't bestow those rights we enjoy to other countries.

True, but the issue is what will the US do, not what will Italy do? Knox is on US soil.... she enjoys those rights, right now. The burden will be on a court in the US to defend why DJ is not operative here...
 
Keep in mind, that first case is a district court case and is not binding on the district court in Washington, although that and the other decisions certainly has persuasive authority. It's possible another district court would disagree. Specifically, it is possible that the District Court for the Western District of Washington would feel differently. I will say this, if it ever comes to an extradition proceeding, the double jeopardy argument will definitely be made. Based on the case law from other district courts and courts of appeal, it's still a very long shot given the lack of favorable case law, but it's still possible.
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True HB. Each case and court is different even when there are precedents to deny the double jeopardy claim. Plus, the circumstances of the Mexico case is way different in that the dead girl was found in the suspect's car while the suspect was driving around.

But, Grinder is still right in that a retrial after an acquittal does not bar extradition on double jeopardy grounds, and I was wrong.

It just goes to prove that PIP folks (overall) are better at critical thinking and are more willing to admit they are mistaken than PGP folks who will go to absurd lengths to to prove why they NEVER have to admit that they are wrong.

Evelyn's son should take note here,

d

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Thank you Bill and Diocletus

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True, but the issue is what will the US do, not what will Italy do? Knox is on US soil.... she enjoys those rights, right now. The burden will be on a court in the US to defend why DJ is not operative here...

for backing me up here. You are both right though, each case is different and it will be interesting to see how this one plays out,

d

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Good point

I think this is the issue. This circumstance is different. I don't think Amanda will ever be extradited, but I don't think it will be because of double jeopardy although I believe that should be a good enough reason, regardless of how the courts have ruled. My perspective is both the Canadian and Mexican case as well as others are pure examples of the the court overstepping its authority and revising the US Constitution.

The problem with all our speculation regarding this issue, is there really has never been a case like this. Italy is different than Canada and Mexico. But I don't think the court would want to create the precedent which would overturn those case. So I think they would seek another way to refuse extradition.
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Both those precedents make it harder but not impossible to use DJ and it will depend on the court the extradition is heard in, but I hope Amanda is "finally" acquitted and doesn't ever have to face this problem.

But from what I've learned during this discussion is that these appeals could go on forever,

d

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I think this is the issue. This circumstance is different. I don't think Amanda will ever be extradited, but I don't think it will be because of double jeopardy although I believe that should be a good enough reason, regardless of how the courts have ruled. My perspective is both the Canadian and Mexican case as well as others are pure examples of the the court overstepping its authority and revising the US Constitution.

Pray-tell how did they overstep their authority? We have extradition treaties that can have exceptions built into them. Other countries won't give us somebody if they can be executed. That is part of the treaty.

I would say this is an pure example of making it up.

The problem with all our speculation regarding this issue, is there really has never been a case like this. Italy is different than Canada and Mexico. But I don't think the court would want to create the precedent which would overturn those case. So I think they would seek another way to refuse extradition.

How do you know there has never been a case like this? Why is Italy different in some meaningful way?

The US is does not hold hegemony over the world on legal matters. When you cross the border and commit a crime in another country you US constitution doesn't protect you.

Had the court of the first instance found her not guilty perhaps the DJ would apply a little more but even then it is their laws.
 
Hahahaha!

The pro-guilt community are working themselves up into paroxysms of joy, self-righteous anger and self-righteous justification over Knox's discussion on her blog of the April Fool's joke.

Let's add some proper perspective to this issue.

1. April Fool's pranks such as these are absolutely commonplace. The whole point of such pranks is generally to cause temporary shock to the "victim", then to reveal the prank and laugh collectively at the deception.

Some years ago, I rang my mother on April Folol's Day and told her that I had just been told that I was imminently departing for Iraq (at that time just post-"liberation" (:rolleyes:) and rampant with civil war and attacks on westerners) to advise on reconstruction of communications infrastructure. She was temporarily in significant shock, and began telling me that I shouldn't go. I then - in traditional style - dropped the deception with "April Fool!". At that point - again, in traditional fashion - my mother's shock dissipated totally, and she laughed along with me and congratulated me on the quality of my April Fool's Joke.

In essence, this is exactly analogous to what Knox says she did in Seattle. She and some mutual friends made a house look like it had been burgled, so that when the other occupants came home, they were temporarily shocked by the apparent realisation that they had been burgled. I assume that it was at this point Knox and the other friends burst in saying "April Fool!" I wouldn't be at all surprised that the "victims" were laughing along with Knox and her friends once the prank had been revealed, and that they completely accepted their temporary shock for exactly what it was: the short-term intention of playing a decent April Fool's joke on someone.


2. Part of the nature of the original "rape prank" myth was that Knox and others had "entered the house" wearing ski masks (and, in some versions, carrying knives), in order to terrify the "victims". This is clearly a whole different order of magnitude different from the type of April Fool's joke Knox now describes. And that (in my opinion) is why Knox made particular mention that no costumes were worn: it wasn't a question of Knox (and others) trying to intimidate the "victims" - it was a question of Knox (and others) simply setting up a scenario (the burglary) to trick the "victims", with no threat of personal violence ever once implied.


3. In any case, whatever may or may not have happened in Seattle on that April Fool's Day is in no material way relevant to the trial. Trials are based purely on evidence that is specific to the direct circumstances of the crime being tried. Similar Fact evidence is only permissible under very specific circumstances, and only when it is directly relevant (e.g. it might be allowable to present evidence of a person's previous bad character if they were on trial for crimes that related to character).

Simply put, whatever happened in that prank (and by my reasoning, nothing malicious or comparable to the prosecution case in the Kercher trial happened anyhow), it's irrelevant in trying to assess Knox's guilt in the Kercher murder. It's also worth remembering that someone with (for example) two previous armed robbery convictions, who's currently on trial for another armed robbery, cannot have the evidence of the previous two convictions used against him in the current trial.

This whole thing is a massive non-issue in the context of assessing Knox's guilt - whether legal or factual - in the Kercher murder. It goes without saying that it's extremely surprising to see pro-guilt commentators who claim to be legal professionals saying that this is a massive game-changer. It's not.
 
Pray-tell how did they overstep their authority? We have extradition treaties that can have exceptions built into them. Other countries won't give us somebody if they can be executed. That is part of the treaty.

I would say this is an pure example of making it up.



How do you know there has never been a case like this? Why is Italy different in some meaningful way?

The US is does not hold hegemony over the world on legal matters. When you cross the border and commit a crime in another country you US constitution doesn't protect you.

Had the court of the first instance found her not guilty perhaps the DJ would apply a little more but even then it is their laws.

The US Constitution is very clear about double jeopardy Grinder. That the courts or even the legislature's willingness to water down the US Constitution goes far beyond their authority. There is a process for amending the US Constitution and this is not it.

This is not the only case where the court has basically ignored the text of the Constitution and has come up with a bizarre reading. Other examples include the use of the commerce clause to over-rule many state's rights. But I won't get into that at this moment. I'll focus on double jeopardy.

5th Amendment of the Constitution
"[N]or shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb."

It is extremely clear that this case does exactly that.
 
Pray-tell how did they overstep their authority? We have extradition treaties that can have exceptions built into them. Other countries won't give us somebody if they can be executed. That is part of the treaty.

I would say this is an pure example of making it up.

How do you know there has never been a case like this? Why is Italy different in some meaningful way?

The US is does not hold hegemony over the world on legal matters. When you cross the border and commit a crime in another country you US constitution doesn't protect you.

Had the court of the first instance found her not guilty perhaps the DJ would apply a little more but even then it is their laws.
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I agree with Acbytesla that this is a pretty unique case overall and that the courts did overstep in the 2010 case you cited, but that is my opinion. We'll see when and (hopefully a big) if this extradition case comes up for trial.

There have been cases where the constitution has been cited as the reasoning for denying extradition. It's not as if any country (even countries with specific extradition treaties with the US) can come in here demand we extradite anyone they want and we just hand them over, without at least some kind of due process as defined by the constitution,

d

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I agree with Acbytesla that this is a pretty unique case overall and that the courts did overstep, but that is my opinion. We'll see when and (hopefully a big) if this extradition case comes up for trial.

There have been cases where the constitution has been cited as the reasoning for denying extradition. It's not as if any country (even countries with specific extradition treaties with the US) can come in here demand we extradite anyone they want and we just hand them over, without at least some kind of due process as defined by the constitution,

d

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My reading (FWIW) is that if Knox is convicted, then precedent and legislation both suggest that she will ultimately be extradited (but remember, that process would not even start until and unless the SC confirmed the convictions).

However, in certain jurisdictions - and the Federal US certainly appears to be one such jurisdiction - it seems entirely possible for "exceptions" to be made - either by some sort of special decree or by other mechanisms. So I certainly wouldn't suggest that it's an absolute slam-dunk that Knox would indeed be extradited if she were ultimately convicted.

But anyhow, in my opinion, this whole discussion might well be moot after 30th January.
 
How do you know there has never been a case like this? Why is Italy different in some meaningful way?

The US is does not hold hegemony over the world on legal matters. When you cross the border and commit a crime in another country you US constitution doesn't protect you.

Had the court of the first instance found her not guilty perhaps the DJ would apply a little more but even then it is their laws.

The whole idea about double jeopardy is to prevent exactly this. An unreasonable burden against endless prosecution and persecution. Should we allow US citizens to undergo 5, 6, 7 even 8 years of defending themselves? At what point does this also violate their right to a speedy trial?

I frankly don't give a damn about Italian laws. Amanda Knox is a US citizen and she is in the United States now. It is not US hegemony that I'm concerned with, it is the inviolate protection of the US Constitution to US Citizens in the US. I don't expect our laws to hold sway abroad. But here at home with a US citizen? Absolutely.
 
My reading (FWIW) is that if Knox is convicted, then precedent and legislation both suggest that she will ultimately be extradited (but remember, that process would not even start until and unless the SC confirmed the convictions).

However, in certain jurisdictions - and the Federal US certainly appears to be one such jurisdiction - it seems entirely possible for "exceptions" to be made - either by some sort of special decree or by other mechanisms. So I certainly wouldn't suggest that it's an absolute slam-dunk that Knox would indeed be extradited if she were ultimately convicted.

But anyhow, in my opinion, this whole discussion might well be moot after 30th January.

We can all choose who to listen to...

... I just remember Jeffrey Toobin on the Piers Morgan show on CNN, the night after the ISC quashing... he was on with Gloria Allred.... Piers Morgan hardly a friend to Amanda Knox and everyone in the room knew it.

Allred related her own experience with Italian courts and the way "the law" in that country intercedes into everyone's life... she calmly suggested that all foreigners be very wary of doing business there.

But Toobin:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Toobin

..... suggested that Knox just take this (then ISC) decision and live her life normally within the confines of the USA. He seemed to wave off the possibility of extradition with a hand.... just move forward on this and get on with life.

Toobin also gave commentary on CNN after the Oct 2011 acquittal. He said, basically, that the court in Italy pretty much had to acquit, because there just was no evidence of Knox's participation in this crime.

I guess you could say he fits in with my confirmation bias!!!
 
True, but the issue is what will the US do, not what will Italy do? Knox is on US soil.... she enjoys those rights, right now. The burden will be on a court in the US to defend why DJ is not operative here...

No it won't. You really need to read up on extradition.

It is clearly not DJ under their system. We signed an extradition treaty with them full well knowing how their system worked. Now if they had changed the system like in the UK that would be different.

We here are entitled to a jury of our peers. Why not challenge on that ground or the right to a speedy trial?
 
The whole idea about double jeopardy is to prevent exactly this. An unreasonable burden against endless prosecution and persecution. Should we allow US citizens to undergo 5, 6, 7 even 8 years of defending themselves? At what point does this also violate their right to a speedy trial?

I frankly don't give a damn about Italian laws. Amanda Knox is a US citizen and she is in the United States now. It is not US hegemony that I'm concerned with, it is the inviolate protection of the US Constitution to US Citizens in the US. I don't expect our laws to hold sway abroad. But here at home with a US citizen? Absolutely.

My uninformed opinion is that Knox has an opportunity not to cooperate with Italian courts now that she's i the US. However, Raffaele has no such option.

I sometimes get the feeling that Knox is cooperating this time, because without Raffaele's steadfast refusal to pull an alibi from her, he's himself risking 25 years in jail..... for no other reason, really, other than that.
 
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