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Total Building Collapse from a Single Column Failure

Clearly there is insufficient data or information about the conditions to come up with an explanation with a high degree of certainty. NIST's column 79 scenario is a an example of one with low degree of certainly, but not entirely impossible... just, in my opinion highly improbable. Their own FEA using a column 79 failure does not match the real world building movements.

The FEA for a col 79 failure does come close to matcjhing real world. It gets further away from reality the longer in the sequence it goes. THAT would be the case no matter what first failure you utilise, due, as you point out, the level of certainty for initial conditions one can come up with.

In fact little things can have an effect. Perhaps the impact damage caused some core damage(there was an elevator car ejected from the shaft) that was not mapped into initial conditions, for instance.

It has been agreed that your TT1 failure is quite possible but for the lack of any proximate cause that can be shown to have existed. That is the only similarity between your proposal and the truther proposal of explosive/therm?te proposal, the lack of evidence of a proximate cause. In fact you at least demonstrate a location of failure whereas truthers simply state 'demolitions' and leave it at that highly speculative and unspecified condition.

The truther meme,'demolition', would then be applicable to either a col 79 or TT1 initial failure leading to global collapse. All it need do is substitute explosives for fire damage. It would at least indicate a location of placement of said demolition charge(s). They cannot bring themselves to that level though since it would then be accepting all of NIST except for proximate cause of initial failure. It would negate the (self imposed) requirement of FF=CD, it would negate the (self imposed) requirement they seem most focused on, that of 'proving NIST wrong'.
 
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I'd be interested to hear this persons response to why the worlds engineering community is not concerned about this.

Are they all "sheep" or just clueless?

I'm pretty sure after a few years of following it would blow your mind when he says something to the effect that the world engineering community is too afraid of undue libel, threat to job security and reputation to speak out and that they all actually agree with the "inside job idea". Or if he says that any engineer that speaks out has not looked at the "evidence" :o
 
New Letter from Journal of 9/11 Studies

http://www.journalof911studies.com/resources/2014JanLetterPepper.pdf

I thought this thread would be the most recent and appropriate one to post this in. I'm sure a lot of this is well-worn territory, but the crux of the matter appears to be that NIST did not include the web stiffeners or some lateral support beams in their report. NIST responded that the structural analyses did not show any web crippling failures; therefore, it wasn't necessary to include them in their Report. Peppers contends that the lateral support beams provided critical support to the buckled beam and that the stiffeners provided critical girder support.

So as always, without rancor, please point me to the best debunking of this assertion that has already appeared in past threads that specifically address this omission, (not the whole thread, please, just the posts) or the best arguments for why NIST did not need to include these components in their analyses to arrive at a conclusive theory.
 
http://www.journalof911studies.com/resources/2014JanLetterPepper.pdf

I thought this thread would be the most recent and appropriate one to post this in. I'm sure a lot of this is well-worn territory, but the crux of the matter appears to be that NIST did not include the web stiffeners or some lateral support beams in their report. NIST responded that the structural analyses did not show any web crippling failures; therefore, it wasn't necessary to include them in their Report. Peppers contends that the lateral support beams provided critical support to the buckled beam and that the stiffeners provided critical girder support.

So as always, without rancor, please point me to the best debunking of this assertion that has already appeared in past threads that specifically address this omission, (not the whole thread, please, just the posts) or the best arguments for why NIST did not need to include these components in their analyses to arrive at a conclusive theory.
Why would it even matter?

The building collapsed, we know why it collapsed with virtual certainty, and we know with COMPLETE certainty that controlled demolition DIDN'T do it.
 
So as always, without rancor, please point me to the best debunking of this assertion that has already appeared in past threads that specifically address this omission, (not the whole thread, please, just the posts) or the best arguments for why NIST did not need to include these components in their analyses to arrive at a conclusive theory.

I'm wondering why anyone would care to debunk just an assertion? Wouldn't you want to wait until it gets to a theory? AE has 3000 engineers, you would think they could do better than this. :rolleyes:
 
http://www.journalof911studies.com/resources/2014JanLetterPepper.pdf

I thought this thread would be the most recent and appropriate one to post this in. I'm sure a lot of this is well-worn territory, but the crux of the matter appears to be that NIST did not include the web stiffeners or some lateral support beams in their report. NIST responded that the structural analyses did not show any web crippling failures; therefore, it wasn't necessary to include them in their Report. Peppers contends that the lateral support beams provided critical support to the buckled beam and that the stiffeners provided critical girder support.

So as always, without rancor, please point me to the best debunking of this assertion that has already appeared in past threads that specifically address this omission, (not the whole thread, please, just the posts) or the best arguments for why NIST did not need to include these components in their analyses to arrive at a conclusive theory.

I'll take a look at it later today or tomorrow.
 
I'm wondering why anyone would care to debunk just an assertion? Wouldn't you want to wait until it gets to a theory? AE has 3000 engineers, you would think they could do better than this. :rolleyes:

The fact that NIST did not include those components in their Report is not speculative.
 
Its a web stiffener. The girder contacts the column seat on its flange. The web is in the middle of the girder flange. If the girder moves so that only a small portion of the flange is contacting the seat then the web stiffener will be doing nothing to stop flange failure, and thus the girder coming off its seat and falling.
 
http://www.journalof911studies.com/resources/2014JanLetterPepper.pdf

I thought this thread would be the most recent and appropriate one to post this in. I'm sure a lot of this is well-worn territory, but the crux of the matter appears to be that NIST did not include the web stiffeners or some lateral support beams in their report. NIST responded that the structural analyses did not show any web crippling failures; therefore, it wasn't necessary to include them in their Report. Peppers contends that the lateral support beams provided critical support to the buckled beam and that the stiffeners provided critical girder support.

So as always, without rancor, please point me to the best debunking of this assertion that has already appeared in past threads that specifically address this omission, (not the whole thread, please, just the posts) or the best arguments for why NIST did not need to include these components in their analyses to arrive at a conclusive theory.
The status AFAIK is that NIST proposed a failure mechanism to explain the collapse of WTC7.

That failure mechanism recognised as key features:
1) The East Penthouse fell early in the collapse;
2) Col 79 was the main element of the structure supporting EPH;
3) Therefore Col 79 must have failed; THEN
4) The rationale for failure of Col 79 was a loss of horizontal bracing over several storeys PLUS "girder walk-off"

Comment: Col 79 must have failed and Euler buckling due to removal of bracing is near certain the cause - sight unseen - because there are really only two options - buckling from loss of bracing OR imposed massive overload which is not possible.

Now the issue of contention is that several truth movement advocates have claimed that the girder walk-off component of the NIST hypothesis in not possible.

Persons arguing from both "sides" have resorted to two types of logic:
A) arguments based on temperature expansion/contraction - all of which worked in fractions of inches dimensions and assumed that the columns supporting the girder remained unmoved at their original precise spacing. That argument opposed by me against T Szamboti on this forum. I did not disprove his claim - merely pointed out that he had not justified the "original spacing" assumption - and that in a heat ravaged building such an assumption was very dubious. Status of the me v Szamboti discussion - I counter claimed that Tony's case was "not proven" because of the unsupported and unlikely assumption.

B) A class of arguments related to the minor structural details such as those identified in the report you cited. The details are typical of those which NIST has omitted or discounted and the truth movement had focussed on - in isolation from context on the premise that if a single error can be proven against NIST is actually proves whatever the truth movement counter claim is. Always false logic.

I doubt that any of the arguments about those details relevant to this situation will ever be definitely resolved.

The girder walk off is only one aspect of the full collapse scenario.

If the objective is prove NIST wrong on a detail - I cannot say about that specific detail.

If the objective is to dismiss NIST's broad scenario - it is not relevant - the key features remain in place - EPH fell>>>Col79 must have failed>>>failure not overload THEREFORE must be removal of bracing.>>>Girder was only one of many elements.

So if the girder walk-off is in error it does not negate the overall scenario - merely one detail. BTW JSanderO has proposed an alternate initiating factor. There could be several more.

I'll leave it there for the quick summary. Beware of the risk of FEA based counter claims - FEA is the most advanced calculator available for engineering structures BUT is is as prone to GIGO as slide rules (my era) OR calculators (the era when I was first managing engineers).

So I acknowledge your request was for help in understanding the specific details. I suggest the place to look is at what use is made of those details - i.e. the bigger picture, The details are almost certainly irrelevant in the high level argument - viz "CD or not" . They are also irrelevant in the "broad explanation of collapse mechanism" and IMO they are only significant if the objective is "Prove NIST wrong on a detail". On that one I cannot help. NIST may have been wrong but it makes no difference.

And I think that is "without rancor" ;)

Cheers.
 
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http://www.journalof911studies.com/resources/2014JanLetterPepper.pdf

I thought this thread would be the most recent and appropriate one to post this in. I'm sure a lot of this is well-worn territory, but the crux of the matter appears to be that NIST did not include the web stiffeners or some lateral support beams in their report. NIST responded that the structural analyses did not show any web crippling failures; therefore, it wasn't necessary to include them in their Report. Peppers contends that the lateral support beams provided critical support to the buckled beam and that the stiffeners provided critical girder support.

So as always, without rancor, please point me to the best debunking of this assertion that has already appeared in past threads that specifically address this omission, (not the whole thread, please, just the posts) or the best arguments for why NIST did not need to include these components in their analyses to arrive at a conclusive theory.

There appears to be three major points raised by the letter:
1) The connection between Column 79 and girder A2001 is lacking a web stiffener plate. (A2001 is the red girder on figure 1, page 4 of the letter)
2) The beams framing into A2001 have a theoretical maximum elongation of 5.5". The distance required for A2001 to "walk off" the bearing seat is 6.25".
3) Three short beams at the north-east corner of the building are omitted from the model.

The responses required are much less verbose than the manner in which they were delivered.

#1 Is irrelevant, as the girder completely walked off the seat (this will be answered in a moment). The presence of a web stiffener in the model would not have prevented a walk off, therefor it was not necessary.

#2 This claim isn't based on a reasonable analysis. The truthers in the letter have surmised that since the beams that frame into A2001 cannot elongate more than 5.5" at the given temperature, that the girder end cannot displace more than 5.5". They are correct in that the beams cannot elongate more than 5.5" at the given temperature. They are mistaken in that they think this is necessary. Each beam that framed into A2001 was heated to a different temperature. This causes each beam to elongate a different amount. This in turn rotates girder A2001. If you go back and read the NIST report, they never claim that the beams elongated the same distance that the girder end displaced.

#3 I don't see how this is relevant. The girder and column that is braced by these beams are braced in their model and are not part of the collapse initiation sequence.
 
Its a web stiffener. The girder contacts the column seat on its flange. The web is in the middle of the girder flange. If the girder moves so that only a small portion of the flange is contacting the seat then the web stiffener will be doing nothing to stop flange failure, and thus the girder coming off its seat and falling.

The web stiffener, in this case, would stiffen the flange and provide additional strength for a failure mode. There's two failure modes that would need to be looked at:

1) Flange bending. The effective span from application of load to support of the flange would be reduced.
2) Flange shear. This isn't affected by the web stiffener

In any event, the web stiffener doesn't matter because the limit state NIST set for the connection (the walk off) was met.
 
This part is true (with my bold). NIST does not want every Tom, Dick and Mary to be able to play with this data. If you are a competent engineer however, they did give you all the data need to reproduce the simulations. AE 9/11 has none (and they will never spend the money to do the work).

Ask them specifically what data is missing? Bet they won't answer. ;)


"NIST does not want every Tom, Dick and Mary to be able to play with this data."

Good answer. After all, there might be one Tom, Dick, and/or Mary that might see that their entire model is (de)bunk.

I know why nobody will give stevemcqueen any sort of reasonable answer. Nobody has one because one does not exist. I mean what is going on? Their video model doesn't represent anything close to what happened. And how long was the video? Was it even a full second?

Why did NIST even look into it? Was it to "prove" the already "proven" in the minds of those that need no proof??!!
 
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"NIST does not want every Tom, Dick and Mary to be able to play with this data."

Good answer. After all, there might be one Tom, Dick, and/or Mary that might see that their entire model is (de)bunk.

I know why nobody will give stevemcqueen any sort of reasonable answer. Nobody has one because one does not exist. I mean what is going on? Their video model doesn't represent anything close to what happened. And how long was the video? Was it even a full second?

Why did NIST even look into it? Was it to "prove" the already "proven" in the minds of those that need no proof!!

Nothing could be said to you that you would either understand or accept. You will continue to believe wholesale in the myths regardless of reality.
You ask questions but don't want answers. Seen it too many times before, it doesn't fool me or amuse me.

But keep playing the game as long as you like. Won't change a thing in this life.
 
"NIST does not want every Tom, Dick and Mary to be able to play with this data."

Good answer. After all, there might be one Tom, Dick, and/or Mary that might see that their entire model is (de)bunk.

And yet you ignored the answer given to you:

If you are a competent engineer however, they did give you all the data need to reproduce the simulations.
 
"NIST does not want every Tom, Dick and Mary to be able to play with this data."

Good answer. After all, there might be one Tom, Dick, and/or Mary that might see that their entire model is (de)bunk.

I know why nobody will give stevemcqueen any sort of reasonable answer. Nobody has one because one does not exist. I mean what is going on? Their video model doesn't represent anything close to what happened. And how long was the video? Was it even a full second?

Why did NIST even look into it? Was it to "prove" the already "proven" in the minds of those that need no proof??!!

Once again.....a box of 10,000 toothpicks falls off a shelf and spills all over the floor. Realists try to determine why the box fell.....troofers what have explained why every toothpick fell in its exact final resting place.
 
#1 Is irrelevant, as the girder completely walked off the seat (this will be answered in a moment). The presence of a web stiffener in the model would not have prevented a walk off, therefor it was not necessary.

Without including the stiffener in its model, how do we know it would not have prevented the walkoff?
 
Without including the stiffener in its model, how do we know it would not have prevented the walkoff?

We know by using a very basic understanding of physics. Once the web of the girder end was beyond the edge of the support it would fall. The web stiffener would prevent the flange from bending to a degree. However flange bending is not what caused the girder end to walk off the edge.

The underlying theory is simple: all objects supported by bearing seats (and without positive attachment) will roll and fall once the center of mass of said object is beyond the edge of bearing. You can even perform this experiment at home with a cardboard box if you're skeptical.
 

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