Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Mary_H]

I admit, in a way, I'd love it if we found out that HarryRag was one of the Kerchers. It would explain so much. I might even be able to understand and sympathize to some degree.

Many of us have speculated that Harry had to be a family member or someone close to the Kerchers given the avalanche of comments by HarryRag everywhere since almost day one.

But I think it is a huge mistake for Doug Bremner to post this without an explanation and some kind of evidence trail. Everyone knows that Anne Bremner has been significantly involved in publicly defending Amanda. For her husband to do this without evidence would be spectacularly irresponsible. And if I was Anne, I would slap him upside the head...or at least make him sleep on the couch for a few days.

Doug is Anne's brother, not her husband. I finally was able to get the page to hold still long enough to read it and I don't really see it as terribly damaging to anybody. In fact, when the author writes, "I also don't appreciate the fact that someone takes the rational[e] that their sister was murdered to go attack someone else's sister, namely mine...," I think we are getting into some pretty nutty, overly personal territory.

 

[Mary_H]

Does anyone know what John Kercher Jr job actually is within the BBC?

It's something in IT.

I thought I saw Raffaele on a BBC News programme (hard talk) last summer.

How do I know for example that Piers Morgan isn’t Harry Rag, he was the editor of the Daily Mirror, one of the newspaper John Kercher Sr worked for.

You're from Coulsdon. Are you Harry Rag?

 

[JREF2010]

heres the first Harry Rag real article as I recall. as far as posters and comments it could be a hundred people using the name.



http://www.zimbio.com/Amanda+Knox/articles/80/Report+Courtroom+How+Saturday+Went

 

[Mary_H]

heres the first Harry Rag real article as I recall. as far as posters and comments it could be a hundred people using the name.

http://www.zimbio.com/Amanda+Knox/articles/80/Report+Courtroom+How+Saturday+Went

There was a poster on the Seattle Times who used a Harry Rag identity to post. He made identical posts under his own name and under the Harry Rag name, with his name located in Seattle and the Harry Rag name located in New York.

The University of Washington Daily seems to have removed all the comments from its articles about the case, but I know Harry Rag had posted there in the fall of 2008.

 

[AmyStrange]

heres the first Harry Rag real article as I recall. as far as posters and comments it could be a hundred people using the name.

http://www.zimbio.com/Amanda+Knox/articles/80/Report+Courtroom+How+Saturday+Went

That story linked to this story (OCT 2013):

Amanda Knox: Inside the mind of a former Foxy Knoxy supporter
http://www.zimbio.com/Amanda+Knox/articles/uqnJAkV1Kl3/Amanda+Knox+Inside+mind+former+Foxy+Knoxy

Here is the really bizarre part of the above story, which in my mind proves the "former" supporter was NEVER a "former" supporter and also a dumb^ss idiot to boot:

"DNO: How about the fact Kercher’s DNA hasn’t yet been determined to have been on the knife?

"Interviewee: You know, that’s a little strange. However, regardless of that fact itself — the DNA test places Knox in possession of that murder weapon. Therefore, she has questions to now answer."

d

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[acbytesla]

Doug is Anne's brother, not her husband. I finally was able to get the page to hold still long enough to read it and I don't really see it as terribly damaging to anybody. In fact, when the author writes, "I also don't appreciate the fact that someone takes the rational[e] that their sister was murdered to go attack someone else's sister, namely mine...," I think we are getting into some pretty nutty, overly personal territory.

Well, it's a good think Doug is sleeping on the couch then. I'm not saying this was damaging to the case. I don't think it is Mary. I just don't think it is very PR smart. In my opinion it reflects poorly on the people close to Amanda.

Over all, I think the FOA have done a great job of demonstrating the right amount of rage about the smears on Amanda while showing just the right of deference to the family of a murdered daughter.

If Doug had actual evidence to HarryRags identity, I think it would be worthwhile to bring it forward. But without that, I think it is a mistake to suggest that Kerchers are spending their time spreading scurrilous rumors about Amanda as HarryRag has been doing.

 

[snook1]

If that blog report about the Kercher brother being Harry Rag isn't true, it's grossly defamatory. He better have some pretty copper-bottomed evidence, I think.

Rolfe.

That's what I've been thinking.

 

[Antony]

I am doing what everyone else here is doing; waiting for the verdict but regardless of the verdict the devil is in the professional judge’s motivation report.

ETA:> What do I know? I am just your average knuckle dragging Brit!

Coulsdon, there has already been a not-guilty verdict, which has been cancelled by the ISC without any recognisable legal reasons.

In any case, given that you haven't made any points about the (lack of) evidence, why would the existence of a definitive verdict change anything you have to say on the substance of the case?

 

[RoseMontague]

Doug is Anne's brother, not her husband. I finally was able to get the page to hold still long enough to read it and I don't really see it as terribly damaging to anybody. In fact, when the author writes, "I also don't appreciate the fact that someone takes the rational[e] that their sister was murdered to go attack someone else's sister, namely mine...," I think we are getting into some pretty nutty, overly personal territory.

Yes. It has become personal. I haven't seen any real evidence. Until I do I think it is just more speculation and really pointless to draw any conclusions.

 

[Antony]

Well, to most reasonable observers, this case goes well beyond being a mere "reasonable doubt" case. Rather, an objective, sceptical, logical view of all the evidence (and lack of evidence) suggests that there is in fact not a single credible, reliable piece of evidence which indicates that Knox and/or Sollecito were involved in the murder.

That's really the reason why this case is so extraordinary, and why some of us have devoted so much effort to debating it. If it were a case of whether or not the evidence fell just above or just below the BRD standard, then it would be far less debate-worthy in this sort of forum. It's the apparent fact that it falls so far below the BRD standard - juxtaposed against the series of judgements and reversals in various Italian courts - that makes it so fascinating and shocking.

... coupled with the bizarre and sustained hate-campaign directed against the defendants - and AK in particular - and their supporters.

 

[Antony]

Similar groups have formed to vilify suspects in other controversial cases.

I'd be interested to know which ones you're thinking of. For me this aspect of the case is what makes it so unique and compelling.

 

[Antony]

I also agree with the other posters about the horrible formatting on Bremner's blog. But I do understand how it ends up looking that way. I have to fight with my blog to keep it readable. The blog programs often do weird things, which is unfortunate. Never the less, you would think he would choose a better base format being a photographer. White and red text on a black background and tiny little fonts..... Horrible.

I don't have a problem with a black background as it means less glare, but I'll agree with the rest of it. The worst thing is that the menu items on the left obscure the actual text (at least on my laptop screen); on top of that, it took my a while even to work out how to scroll down.

 

[LondonJohn]

I'm sure LJ will let us know but I think that they can't do much as long as he isn't in britain. I would think they would ignore it anyway.

If it were potentially libellous, then John Kercher could certainly bring a civil action in the UK (England and Wales, strictly speaking). That's because the statement can be construed as having been published within this jurisdiction.

If a suit were brought, Doug Bremner could choose to ignore it and not attend the court hearings. But if the court found against him, damages/costs could be pursued even across national boundaries.

 

[LondonJohn]

If John Kercher, Jr. is not posting as Harry Rag and brings suit for liable, he may have to prove he is not the Rag. He may find himself in the unusual positon of having to prove his innocence. He will learn how difficult it is to prove a negative.

Hope the police don't fry his computer. That may be the only evidence to clear his name.

If the action was brought in the UK, it would be entirely incumbent on the defendant - Doug Bremner - to prove that he had reasonable cause to believe that the accusations were true (or to offer any other valid defence). It would not in any way be incumbent upon John Kercher to prove (or even demonstrate) that the accusations were false. The only elements of proof that John Kercher might be required to provide would be related to the injury to his reputation resulting from the accusations, and even then if he wanted to go for an additional layer of financial restitution.

This is one of the major reasons why London has become the world's major libel-suit environment: it's relatively extremely favourable to plaintiffs, and it's plaintiffs who initiate lawsuits.

 

[Rolfe]

I agree. The name HarryRag began appearing within months of the death. I can't see a family member having the energy to fight the way HarryRag has, at least not for 6 years.

I have not been able to read the article yet, but if HarryRag hasn't broken any laws, then I don't see how there is any defamation in connecting his activities to anyone else.

I think LondonJohn has more or less covered it. However, a statement doesn't have to be an accusation of criminal behaviour to be defamatory. All it has to do is injure someone's reputation. So, accusing a respectable citizen, the brother of a murder victim, of flooding internet sites 24/7 with vicious hate posts against someone acquitted of that murder could easily be construed as defamatory.

I would think a case for damage to reputation wouldn't be too hard to make. Courts don't really go for the "well lots of people thought he was a slimeball anyway" defence. And England is the libel capital of the world. Bremner could easily be sued in the English courts by a citizen of England whom he libelled in an article available to the public in England. (It's not unknown for plaintiffs who have never been in England to sue defendants who have never been in England in the English courts, just on the basis that the libel was available to be read in England, and the English libel laws are so favourable to the plaintiff.)

Bremner wouldn't have to show up, just like Knox doesn't have to show up in Florence, but the case would go ahead anyway, and not showing up would make it harder to defend. The onus is 100% on him to prove his allegations. Kercher has to do nothing but demand that he produce his proof, and invite the judge to agree that the allegation was indeed libellous.

Thinking about it, a week isn't long enough to show your hand if you're serious about this. It's long enough for a quick cease-and-desist if all you really want is to have the page taken down. But if there is a real intent to go the whole nine yards, I wouldn't expect any move as early as this.

This might get interesting.

Rolfe.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

I'd be interested to know which ones you're thinking of. For me this aspect of the case is what makes it so unique and compelling.

The Ramsey and McCann haters are as bad as the people who post on PMF, and very similar in their tone and attitude.

 

[MichaelB]

If it were potentially libellous, then John Kercher could certainly bring a civil action in the UK (England and Wales, strictly speaking). That's because the statement can be construed as having been published within this jurisdiction.

If a suit were brought, Doug Bremner could choose to ignore it and not attend the court hearings. But if the court found against him, damages/costs could be pursued even across national boundaries.

If the person had assets in the UK then the court could order them to be seized to pay any damages awarded but some judge in the UK has no authority to force an American citizen to hand over money cause they lost a defamation case in the UK. How could such an order even be enforced and at what cost trying to pursue it?

 

[Mary_H]

I think LondonJohn has more or less covered it. However, a statement doesn't have to be an accusation of criminal behaviour to be defamatory. All it has to do is injure someone's reputation. So, accusing a respectable citizen, the brother of a murder victim, of flooding internet sites 24/7 with vicious hate posts against someone acquitted of that murder could easily be construed as defamatory.<snip>

We see them as vicious hate posts, and we would feel damaged by being called Harry Rag, but unless John Kercher, Jr. has ever said in the past that he didn't approve of what Harry Rag was doing on the internet, I don't think a judge would see any reason that JK, Jr. could rightly feel harmed. Harry has been a hero to the pro-guilt community and the Kerchers seem to be part of the pro-guilt community. There would not be much validity in one of them suddenly saying that pro-guilt activities are anathema to them.

 

[Antony]

The Ramsey and McCann haters are as bad as the people who post on PMF, and very similar in their tone and attitude.

I don't doubt that they are as loathsome in several ways, but IMO they don't compare in sheer volume and coordination.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Coulsdon, there has already been a not-guilty verdict, which has been cancelled by the ISC without any recognisable legal reasons.

In any case, given that you haven't made any points about the (lack of) evidence, why would the existence of a definitive verdict change anything you have to say on the substance of the case?

I do not believe anything written here or on any of the sites either side of this case will have the slightest impact on the outcome of the appeal and that is as it should be, it seems that this PIP vs PGP has become the issue for some folks.