Bart Ehrman on the Historical Jesus

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Do you have any evidence to show that Tacitus didn't simply make a transcription error from "Christus" to "Chrestus"? Is there any other contemporary evidence of or reference to this "Chrestus"?

Hold hard, jhunter1163.
Are you answering my questions by claiming Tacitus' report is a transcription error?
Why do you take such a report seriously?

ETA
Here are my questions once again
"Tacitus?
Tacitus wrote his Annals in 116 CE.
Remember, the Roman records were destroyed in Nero's Great Fire and the Jewish, in the destruction of Jerusalem in 69-70 CE.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Tacitus think the name of the leader of the sect he's talking about was Chrestus?

Do you have any reason to think Tacitus did other than repeat an unsubstantiated second or fifth-hand report?
Is there any corroborative evidence to back up his mention of the persecution of the Christians?

I ask all this because the Tacitus passage is subject to questioning and I'm interested in knowing why you take it seriously."
 
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That sort of scorn and derision is absolutely standard in every thread where anyone ever expresses doubt over the existence of Jesus. It happens every time, guaranteed, without exception.

In fact as I highlighted before - in his book published in 1996 (The Jesus Legend), G.A. Wells not only notes that precisely this type of scorn and derision has greeted every single thing he has ever written or said about doubting the existence of Jesus, but he lists at the start of that book 11 typical hostile remarks that he has experienced continuously.

I'm going to take the time and trouble to write out longhand those 11 examples recorded by Wells 20 years ago. See how many you and other sceptics recognise as going on these current HJ threads -


G.A. Wells, The Jesus Legend, Open Court Publishing, 1996, pages 5-6.

1. Question his qualifications to say anything on the subject at all (“does this man know Greek?”)

2. Never give the impression of carefully rebutting a rational argument, but speak patronisingly, as of a crude and discredited theory which deserves no more that a brief mention (eg his book is “fun” and one must admire his mental agility and capacity for belief).

3. Affix distasteful labels to him, suggesting his adherence to discredited philosophical or other modes. (Dispose of Strauss and Baur by saying that the Tubingen School of critical theology was Hegelian. “Negative” is a useful label here, even though the Finish theologian Heikki Raisanen has noted that “the history of biblical study is full of examples from Galileo through to Strauss to Albert Schweitzer which demonstrate that is the “negative” results which have most forcefully driven research forwards.

4. Lump him together with discredited commentators, and if he himself has criticised these, make no mention of that fact.

5. Represent his minor errors and slips as indications of total incompetence.

6. Make plausible-sounding objections to his case as if he were himself unaware of them and had not attempted to answer them.

7. Say he relies on certain a priori dogmas; for instance, claim that he rejects the New testament miracles not because he gives grounds for finding the evidence for them in the documents inadequate, nor because he is able, additionally, to account for the narratives without recourse to the idea of supernatural intervention, but because he arbitrarily rules out in advance the idea of supernatural events.

8. Pick on a book he does not mention - the literature on his subject being illimitable - and call his failure to do so a “serious omission”.

9. Do not produce arguments, but appeal to “authorities”, alleging them to have settled all that is in question. At the same time, complain that he does no more than this, and also that the authorities on which he relies are out of date.

10. State his case in an elliptical way which while it would not mislead the few who already knew his work, will make others suppose that he is defending an untenable, even absurd, position,. Above all, do not quote him at any length if his arguments are difficult to answer: (“No purpose is served by questioning the maverick and ill-founded views of G.A. Wells”).

11. Adduce propositions which, while themselves true, are irrelevant to his case.



That is of course from the authors point of view of criticism attacking what he had written in books. Here on forums like this, and it was always absolutely identical 5 years ago on the old Richard Dawkins Forum, and then 3 years ago on rational scepticism, where a huge amount of that abuse and ridicule came from a person named Tim O’Neil, but also in smaller measure from almost every single person defending a belief in a HJ here in these threads, where those examples of absolutely standard use of ridicule, scorn and dismissive abuse, are typically such as -

A. Say, "Lies, Liar, and Lying ... and say it often.

B. Describe opponents as idiots, say they show themselves to be obsessed with irrational disbelief, dismiss them scornfully as ill-informed and repetitive fools.

C. Compare them to Creationists and other religious nut cases. As if implying that scientific rigour is on your side supporting belief in Jesus and the "evidence" of the bible, and not the other way around where sceptics asking for any proper objective rational evidence are thereby dismissed as being as unscientific as Creationists who would deny the evidence for evolution just as they deny the evidence for Jesus. Likewise, even try comparing sceptics to holocaust deniers.

D. Dismiss them with derogatory labels such as "Myther" and "Mythisicist", denying such labels are ever derogatory, but say they are just what these people are, and that its just standard terminology.

E. Say they are ignorant of the subject and unfit to question the views of expert scholars.

F. Ask them to explain what could have been meant by the most obscure and vague passages of religious copyist writing.

G. Assert that you yourself do know what was meant by such vague and obscure religious writing ("it must mean so & so...").

H. Instead of writing detailed explanatory replies, keep making ultra brief demands for evidence (inc. evidence of non-existent people) and one-line remarks of ridicule and personalised abuse.

I. Never ever produce any evidence for a living Jesus, but instead appeal to authority saying "the evidence has been given, and every qualified person agrees upon it". If they suggest any disagreement, tell them they must publish their HJ objections in the biblical history journals, otherwise they must shut up.

J. Never admit that almost all the most frequently cited "historians" are in fact bible-studies scholars drowning in a mass of religious qualifications, and teaching religious studies from various institutes.

K. Compare Jesus to other poorly evidenced figures, inc. rulers and philosophers who were said to perform miracles, and say they were all just as real as one-another, regardless of whether there is evidence for any of them or not.

L. Claim that we must not expect evidence for Jesus because he was so little known, as if that was an excuse for having no evidence, or as if it itself constituted evidence for him.

M. Claim that certain things in the bible could be evidence of a real Jesus, because they are realistic as place names (eg Jerusalem) or common names (eg Peter or Mary), as if such realistic elements did not occur in absolutely every untrue fairy story (eg in Alice in Wonderland - girls do exist, Alice is a common name, Hares do exist, the month of March exists … etc).

N,O,P,Q …. X, Y, …

Z. Greet such as 1-11 and A-M above with a trite dismissal such as “me thinks thou doth protest too much” … but whilst still failing ever to provide any credible evidence whatsoever for a living human Jesus.

You know, sometimes when arguments don't convince anyone, it's not because everyone is biased.

Sometimes it's because the arguments are not convincing.
 
I don't see that as an actual problem and I don't know why people do. If BT tends to make history more accurate by formalizing the historians' approach to history, it is only a good thing.

Forgetting the theorem for a while, the "problem" is that you'd have a virtually empty historical record. Do you deny this ?
 
No it wasn't a lack of evidence

Continental drift even in 1596 was based on how South American and Africa looked like they fitted together. The reason it was dismissed is that the mechanisms suggested were kludgy at best...when they simply were not testable with the technology of the time.

Isn't that a lack of evidence ?

The existence of Troy was a case were the experts simply dismissed the tale because it was from one author - Homer. Schliemann using only Homer's account for geographic markers found Troy...effectively in the location Homer said it was. Sadly for later experts Schliemann knew as much about real archeology as he knew about flying a rocketship to Mars and really messed up the site.

So again, lack of evidence -- in fact precisely the kind of lack of evidence that people are complaining about here: scarcity of sources.

By Occam's razor Heliocentrism should have been the go to theory...but it was ignored even when evidence that is made more sense was provided...in 1600.

Yes, that one was via dogma.

Norse colonization of the Americas had the evidence of the "Eirik the Red's Saga" and the "Saga of the Greenlanders" since 14th century.

Sounds suspiciously like the Gospels, right ?

As Burke pointed out in Day the Universe Changed to even begin asking questions you need a hypothesis in mind.

Could you at least tell me why you won't answer ?
 
That sort of scorn and derision is absolutely standard in every thread where anyone ever expresses doubt over the existence of Jesus. It happens every time, guaranteed, without exception.

And both ways. Don't pretend that yourself and Dejudge haven't engaged in scorn and derision.
 
Belz

I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Could you clarify ?
I understood (or misunderstood) you to be discussing in post #2838, directed to The Norseman,

The reasoning is that if a change to the historical method would exclude Jesus, it would exclude a lot of other figures of history we assume existed because they have been concluded (tentatively) to exist based on similar or even weaker evidence.
My response was that it should be easy to distinguish Jesus from anybody whose claim to fame was something they supposedly did before they died.

There are people, like Jesus, who are known to us only or chiefly because someone thinks they saw their ghost. I gave Jason an example, a 19th Century woman who was engaged to, but died before she could marry, the owner of a famous New York State landmark. But this seems an exceptional circumstance and in most cases, a "hard line" on such things would "jeopardize" very few people who left much of a wake in the world.
 
Forgetting the theorem for a while, the "problem" is that you'd have a virtually empty historical record. Do you deny this ?

Yes I deny this because you have not put forth any evidence that such would be the case.

Also, someone has yet to demonstrate that BT is less effective than the normal historical method. That's basically what you're trying to say here, yes?
 
Hold hard, jhunter1163.
Are you answering my questions by claiming Tacitus' report is a transcription error?
Why do you take such a report seriously?

ETA
Here are my questions once again
"Tacitus?
Tacitus wrote his Annals in 116 CE.
Remember, the Roman records were destroyed in Nero's Great Fire and the Jewish, in the destruction of Jerusalem in 69-70 CE.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Tacitus think the name of the leader of the sect he's talking about was Chrestus?

Do you have any reason to think Tacitus did other than repeat an unsubstantiated second or fifth-hand report?
Is there any corroborative evidence to back up his mention of the persecution of the Christians?

I ask all this because the Tacitus passage is subject to questioning and I'm interested in knowing why you take it seriously."

There's also the "institutum Neronianum " in Tertullius, which describes persecutions under Nero, and this reference to persecutions in Suetonius, Nero 16:

"During his reign many abuses were severely punished and put down, and no fewer new laws were made: a limit was set to expenditures; the public banquets were confined to a distribution of food; the sale of any kind of cooked viands in the taverns was forbidden, with the exception of pulse and vegetables, whereas before every sort of dainty was exposed for sale. Punishment was inflicted on the Christians,[43] a class of men given to a new and mischievous superstition. He put an end to the diversions of the chariot drivers, who from immunity of long standing claimed the right of ranging at large and amusing themselves by cheating and robbing the people. The pantomimic actors and their partisans were banished from the city."

There are also references to persecutions believed to be under Domitian in Revelation, but I am assuming here that you wanted references to early persecutions only.
 
Hold hard, jhunter1163.
Are you answering my questions by claiming Tacitus' report is a transcription error?
Why do you take such a report seriously?

ETA
Here are my questions once again
"Tacitus?
Tacitus wrote his Annals in 116 CE.
Remember, the Roman records were destroyed in Nero's Great Fire and the Jewish, in the destruction of Jerusalem in 69-70 CE.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Tacitus think the name of the leader of the sect he's talking about was Chrestus?

Do you have any reason to think Tacitus did other than repeat an unsubstantiated second or fifth-hand report?
Is there any corroborative evidence to back up his mention of the persecution of the Christians?

I ask all this because the Tacitus passage is subject to questioning and I'm interested in knowing why you take it seriously."

The Wiki page does a pretty good job addressing all the points and includes citations from various scholars (and their names!).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Christ#cite_note-57

Although, I think you've already read it before?
 
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Do you have any evidence to show that Tacitus didn't simply make a transcription error from "Christus" to "Chrestus"? Is there any other contemporary evidence of or reference to this "Chrestus"?

Tacitus' Annals with Christus is a known forgery. No Apologetic writer claimed that Tacitus mentioned Jesus Christ for hundreds of years.

Even Eusebius when writing the History of Church did not acknowledge that Tacitus mentioned Jesus.

In fact, Eusebius used the forgery called the TF in Antiquities of the Jews 18.3.3.

Tacitus' Annals with Christus is a very late interpolation no earlier than the end of the 4th century.

Also, the word Christians was most likely not found in Tacitus' Annals--there is evidence the word was CHRESTIANS.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annals_(Tacitus)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Christ#Christians_and_Chrestians
 
The Wiki page does a pretty good job addressing all the points and includes citations from various scholars (and their names!).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Christ#cite_note-57

Although, I think you've already read it before?

Here is that link fixed for the Emperor Newb:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Christ

Scholars generally consider Tacitus's reference to be genuine and of historical value as an independent Roman source about early Christianity that is in unison with other historical records.[5][6][7][41]
Van Voorst states that "of all Roman writers, Tacitus gives us the most precise information about Christ".[40] John Dominic Crossan considers the passage important in establishing that Jesus existed and was crucified, and states: "That he was crucified is as sure as anything historical can ever be, since both Josephus and Tacitus... agree with the Christian accounts on at least that basic fact."[52]
Some scholars have debated the historical value of the passage, given that Tacitus does not reveal the source of his information.[53] Gerd Theissen and Annette Merz argue that Tacitus at times had drawn on earlier historical works now lost to us, and he may have used official sources from a Roman archive in this case; however, if Tacitus had been copying from an official source, some scholars would expect him to have labeled Pilate correctly as a prefect rather than a procurator.[54] Theissen and Merz state that Tacitus gives us a description of widespread prejudices about Christianity and a few precise details about "Christus" and Christianity, the source of which remains unclear.[55] However, Paul R. Eddy has stated that given his position as a senator Tacitus was also likely to have had access to official Roman documents of the time and did not need other sources.[23]
 
Here is that link fixed for the Emperor Newb:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Christ


HJers DENY that their HJ was the Christ so how come the Christus in Annals is their HJ?



Tacitus Annals 15.44 never mentioned Jesus of Nazareth.

In the very stories of Jesus he was NOT known as Christus.

In fact, Jesus demanded that his OWN disciples should not tell anyone he was Christus.

And to show that Jesus was NOT known as or called Christus in the earliest story of Jesus he was known as JOHN the Baptist or one of the PROPHETS--NOT Christus.


Mark 8
27 Jesus went out, along with His disciples, to the villages of Caesarea Philippi ; and on the way He questioned His disciples, saying to them, "Who do people say that I am ?"

28 They told Him, saying, "John the Baptist ; and others say Elijah ; but others, one of the prophets."


Matthew 16
13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?"

14 And they said, "Some say John the Baptist ; and others, Elijah ; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets."



Matthew 16:20 NAS
Then He warned the disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ.



Mark 8:30 NAS
And He warned them to tell no one about Him.


Tacitus' Annals with Christus is a known forgery FABRICATED no earlier than the end of the 4th century.

How can it be explained that a most significant piece of evidence for an HJ that is being used today was completely missed by all Christians writers of the Church for hundreds of years even by those who knew of the writings of Tacitus?

Tertullian who argued that God came in the Flesh did not use Tacitus' Annals.

Tertullian was aware of the writings of Tacitus. See Tertullian's Apology
 
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Isn't that a lack of evidence ?

No because the evidence for continental drift was how South American and Africa looked like they fitted together. There was no evidence for massive land bridges either and yet that theory held sway.

So again, lack of evidence -- in fact precisely the kind of lack of evidence that people are complaining about here: scarcity of sources.

Homer's writings were possible evidence that were simply dismissed out of hand. It was like what happen with challenges to the Clovis First theory...everybody assumed the theory was correct and so didn't bother looking for anything that said otherwise. The Gospels portray a Jesus widely known and widely heard and yet no one known contemporary wrote anything about him or anything related to him. How does that happen in what is now know to have been the most literature Empire of the ancient world... a place where even slaves were expected to read and write?

"Like all Roman children, Tiro was sent to elementary school, the ludus litterarius, to learn reading and writing. His was not an act of generosity but necessity. Rome was the most literate society of the classical world, "a civilization based on the book and the register," and "no one, either free or slave, could afford to be illiterate" (Di Renzo, A (2000) “His master's voice: Tiro and the rise of the roman secretarial class,” Journal of technical writing and communication, vol. 30, (2) 155-168)

And before you go into the nonsense of the region not being Rome proper Josephus in Against Apion (2.204) stated that the "law requires that they (children) be taught to read". Furthermore Mark 1.39, 2.25, 12.10; Matt. 12.5, 19.4, 21.16; Luke 4.16; and John 7.15 Jesus himself appears to been able to read and write. Yet despite talking to hundreds if not thousand not one contemporary had the presence of mind to write down anything...not even Jesus himself.

If you buy that there is a bridge in New York someone wants to sale cheap...goes to a place called Brooklyn.


maximara:Norse colonization of the Americas had the evidence of the "Eirik the Red's Saga" and the "Saga of the Greenlanders" since 14th century.

Sounds suspiciously like the Gospels, right ?

No, because the Sagas suggested that you would find physcial evidence of such colonization. We can't even show that Nazareth existed in the 1st century and even if it did it was supposedly so small everybody would have been going 'Jesus of where?!?'


maximara:As Burke pointed out in Day the Universe Changed to even begin asking questions you need a hypothesis in mind.
Could you at least tell me why you won't answer ?

I already have. Please reread the highlighted bit above. As pointed out before the stories King Arthur and Robin Hood are considered historical myth with candidates as much as 200 years outside the traditional periods of the stories.

There is nothing in the Gospel stories that suggest they are real history and plenty that suggest they are propaganda. Matthew claims that Joseph and Mary took off for Egypt to escape Herod the Great's wrath and hid there for at least two years while Luke 2:41 expressly states "Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover." Both accounts cannot be true and given there was a census of some sort 6 CE which is where Luke is putting the birth of Jesus while there is NO record of Herod going nuts and slaughtering and killing children two years and younger it is Luke that has the better evidence and yet everybody wants to go with Matthew. How does that work?
 
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There's also the "institutum Neronianum " in Tertullius, which describes persecutions under Nero, and this reference to persecutions in Suetonius, Nero 16:
G A Wells cites one commentator who suggests that the Suetonius reference to a Neronian persecution occurring as it does within "an enumeration of minor police reforms" about selling hot food in pubs and so on is clearly an interpolation. I tend to agree.

To IanS As to Wells' own views, his wiki biography states
Since the late 1990s, Wells has said that the hypothetical Q document, which is proposed as a source used in some of the gospels, may "contain a core of reminiscences" of an itinerant Galilean miracle-worker/Cynic-sage type preacher. This new stance has been interpreted as Wells changing his position to accept the existence of a historical Jesus. In 2003 Wells stated that he now disagrees with Robert M. Price on the information about Jesus being "all mythical". Wells believes that the Jesus of the gospels is obtained by attributing the supernatural traits of the Pauline epistles to the human preacher of Q.
 
There's also the "institutum Neronianum " in Tertullius, which describes persecutions under Nero, and this reference to persecutions in Suetonius, Nero 16:



There are also references to persecutions believed to be under Domitian in Revelation, but I am assuming here that you wanted references to early persecutions only.

No, what I asked for was corroboration of Tacitus' reference.



The Wiki page does a pretty good job addressing all the points and includes citations from various scholars (and their names!).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Christ#cite_note-57

Although, I think you've already read it before?

Yes, indeed.
The trouble with that Wiki article is that, as the scholars it cites should know, Tacitus could only have access to records from after the Great Fire, which destroyed the records from beforehand.
His references to Jesus being crucified under Pilate can only be second or fifth hand hearsay.
Remember he wrote in 116, after all.
After Paul's epistles, even after the gospels.
 
Again, we see the double standard argument from HJers.

All of a sudden CHRISTUS in Annals is their little known ITINERANT preacher.

HJers simply are not sticking to their story.

At one time it is claimed that Jesus was hardly known that is why hardly anyone wrote about him but immediately contradicting themselves they conveniently say their HJ was the WELL KNOWN CHRISTUS in Tacitus and Jesus called Christ in Josephus.

The HJ argument is hopelessly flawed.

It is already known that there was no Jewish Messianic ruler called Jesus of Nazareth up to c 70 CE in the same writings of Josephus and Tacitus.

Tacitus Histories 5
Some few put a fearful meaning on these events, but in most there was a firm persuasion, that in the ancient records of their priests was contained a prediction of how at this very time the East was to grow powerful, and rulers, coming from Judaea, were to acquire universal empire.

These mysterious prophecies had pointed to Vespasian and Titus
, but the common people, with the usual blindness of ambition, had interpreted these mighty destinies of themselves, and could not be brought even by disasters to believe the truth.

Tacitus' Histories 5 is evidence that Tacitus Annals with Christus is a forgery.

The Jews expected Jewish Messianic rulers c 66-70 CE --NOT 33 CE.

Tacitus' Histories 5 is corroborated by Josephus' Wars of the Jews 6.5.4 and Suetonius Life of Vespasian.
 
No, what I asked for was corroboration of Tacitus' reference.





Yes, indeed.
The trouble with that Wiki article is that, as the scholars it cites should know, Tacitus could only have access to records from after the Great Fire, which destroyed the records from beforehand.
His references to Jesus being crucified under Pilate can only be second or fifth hand hearsay.
Remember he wrote in 116, after all.
After Paul's epistles, even after the gospels.

Why should that matter when Nero's persecution of the Christians was supposedly as a result of the Fire?

He blamed the Christians for starting it.

I imagine any records must have been made after the great fire, in that case.
 
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