Merged Global Warming Discussion II: Heated Conversation

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Why the smilie? It's hardly a funny post.

Which post number is it? I wanna see it. Lol.
Back more on topic; how much has the oceans risen in say from 1970 -2000. And how much more since 2000? I`d sure hate to see my precious Florida Keys go under water!
What does the mayor of NYC think about this, i wonder? Along with other seaboard cities.
Any scientists thinking outside the box, like getting sea water into a machine that can make it disappear? Or perhaps say vacuuming up river delta silt back onto dry land? Or is the sea rise so great the last suggestion have only a pimple effect, even if say every industrialized country around the world ran such machines? Er, maybe too the CO2 emmissions related to machine use would create a viscous cycle effect?
Why isnt more natural gas used instead of coal?
What about hydrogen technology? Or isnt there enough, and or byproduct issues come into play?
 
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Which post number is it? I wanna see it. Lol.
Back more on topic; how much has the oceans risen in say from 1970 -2000. And how much more since 2000? I`d sure hate to see my precious Florida Keys go under water!
What does the mayor of NYC think about this, i wonder? Along with other seaboard cities.
Any scientists thinking outside the box, like getting sea water into a machine that can make it disappear? Or perhaps say vacuuming up river delta silt back onto dry land? Or is the sea rise so great the last suggestion have only a pimple effect, even if say every industrialized country around the world ran such machines? Er, maybe too the CO2 emmissions related to machine use would create a viscous cycle effect?
Why isnt more natural gas used instead of coal?
What about hydrogen technology? Or isnt there enough, and or byproduct issues come into play?
Current sea-level rise is ~ 3.3 mm/year +/-worldwide, which is up from ~1.7 mm/year +/-. As far as your proposed potential solutions go, I am unqualified to answer, but sounds incredibly expensive.
 
I just got a brainstorm! This is a good one. You dig out the Sahara Desert below sea level and drain the ocean into it! I wonder if anybody else has thought of that yet! I KNEW that desert had to be good for something. (Before this idea i thought of having glass factories there.)
 
Current sea-level rise is ~ 3.3 mm/year +/-worldwide, which is up from ~1.7 mm/year +/-. As far as your proposed potential solutions go, I am unqualified to answer, but sounds incredibly expensive.

A little over an inch every 8 years according to my half arse smartphone converter. So in 40 years, about 5 inches. Well now, we be dead then probably. Oh well.
 
I just got a brainstorm! This is a good one. You dig out the Sahara Desert below sea level and drain the ocean into it! I wonder if anybody else has thought of that yet! I KNEW that desert had to be good for something. (Before this idea i thought of having glass factories there.)

I have a brainstorm for you. Since you are in Wisconsin, why not pick up the phone or write a letter to:

Dr. Dan Undersander
Department of Agronomy,
1575 Linden Drive,
Madison, WI 53706
ph (608) 263-5070

And ask him how much CO2 can be sequestered in the soil of a properly managed forage system per acre as opposed to conventional corn fields supplying a CAFO system?

He is a team leader to your state cooperative extension service. He probably could help. Heck, I may just call him myself, even though I am not from Wisconsin.

Here is one of the more interesting articles he has published through the extension. Although it doesn't actually state the C effects, it does address restoring the ecology, and he may have data on the humus in the soil that wasn't published as well.

Grassland birds: Fostering habitats using rotational grazing
 
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Scott, i`ll let you do it. I think you have more expertise in this subjectmatter. I have none really. I`m like the little kid who asks the dad some seemingly dumb question and the dad starts rubbing his chin, thinking. Lol.
If that agronomist said some key words related to the field that i never even heard of, he`d think he was talking to some no-mind pea brain.
 
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I don't know much about climate change, so I apologize if this is obvious or has been discussed. A friend of mine follows a blog that posted the following info:

"January 1st global sea ice area was 17,932,000 km², which is the highest ever recorded during the month of January." On the page is a link to the data for years 1979-2014.

http://stevengoddard.wordpress.com/...st-ever-measured-during-the-month-of-january/

I'm curious to hear what the counter argument is to this. It seems like this is far too little information to prove that global warming isn't happening, but I don't know how to form my response.
 
I don't know much about climate change, so I apologize if this is obvious or has been discussed. A friend of mine follows a blog that posted the following info:

"January 1st global sea ice area was 17,932,000 km², which is the highest ever recorded during the month of January." On the page is a link to the data for years 1979-2014.

http://stevengoddard.wordpress.com/...st-ever-measured-during-the-month-of-january/

I'm curious to hear what the counter argument is to this. It seems like this is far too little information to prove that global warming isn't happening, but I don't know how to form my response.

Sea ice expands as land ice melts and reduces the salinity of the water. Expanded sea ice was predicted as a result of global warming.
 
WIthout an underlying base of climate change and sea ice it's hard to explain to you but you are absolutely correct - it's a load of bollocks in regard to the reality of AGW.
Just another denier with links back to the fossil fuel in industry.

Steven Goddard
Credentials

Bachelor of Science.
Bachelor in Electrical Engineering.
Source: [1]

Background

Steven Goddard is a global warming skeptic and guest author at the climate change skeptic blog WattsUpWithThat (WUWT). The name "Steven Goddard" is a pseudonym, and there is a suggestion that Anthony Watts of WUWT knows Goddard's real name. [2]
http://www.desmogblog.com/steven-goddard

Here are multi-national cross discipline scientists reports annually

http://www.arctic.noaa.gov/reportcard/

Arctic sea ice is subject to many factors and waxes and wanes but it would take numerous years to reverse this well established trend in the wiki image

400px-Arctic_sea_Ice_September_Extent_Anomalies.png



In addition Goddard is using a global sea ice number which includes the Antarctic where glacier are thinning and running into the sea expanding the sea ice there.....

I suggest you chase the links in my sig and this one
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/05/start-here/
and satisfy yourself as to the reality of AGW and it's basics and then put your brain to work figuring out how decarbon your lifestyle :D
 
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WIthout an underlying base of climate change and sea ice it's hard to explain to you but you are absolutely correct - it's a load of bollocks in regard to the reality of AGW.
Just another denier with links back to the fossil fuel in industry.


http://www.desmogblog.com/steven-goddard

Here are multi-national cross discipline scientists reports annually

http://www.arctic.noaa.gov/reportcard/

Arctic sea ice is subject to many factors and waxes and wanes but it would take numerous years to reverse this well established trend in the wiki image

[qimg]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7a/Arctic_sea_Ice_September_Extent_Anomalies.png/400px-Arctic_sea_Ice_September_Extent_Anomalies.png[/qimg]


In addition Goddard is using a global sea ice number which includes the Antarctic where glacier are thinning and running into the sea expanding the sea ice there.....

I suggest you chase the links in my sig and this one
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/05/start-here/
and satisfy yourself as to the reality of AGW and it's basics and then put your brain to work figuring out how decarbon your lifestyle :D

Macdoc, was I wrong in my short explanation above?
 
Don't think you are incorrect - but you did not restrict it to the Antarctic and Greenland which are big enough to affect salinity..
Salinity plays a role but I know of know specific prediction about expanded sea ice as an AGW consequence....certainly shifts in salinity have been and there is some speculation the North Atlantic as a whole is impacted.

For the OP total net mass changes would be more understandable as sea ice has so many variables attached.

This is a good article

http://www.pri.org/stories/2013-12-26/long-downward-slide-scientists-say-2013-was-year-arctic-ice
 
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Regarding that... Steep costs for the equipment for the same energy conversion efficacy are the main, but not only reasons why I think that. At an individual consumer level, I learned that the cost of the equipment, area available for the solar array, the weather, and geologic location influence how well the system performs. 6/10 days were cloudy, and pretty much every "house" was in the negative when everything was said and done. We wound a little bit positive only because we minimized power use (the design involved a lot glazing [aka day lighting] which which was itself a large cost component).

At the city level, you need a huge area of land to set up the solar array. That hasn't set particularly well with environmentalists in a number of cases, particularly given that where I live the only area available for an array of the required size happens to be a national park. I'm not sure they're cozy with the idea. Nor do I think the idea of blinding reflected sunlight on flights is either.

Doesn't mean solar's a bad idea, I think we should pursue it, but if it's supposed to help eventually replace fossil fuels, it needs a lot of passive design built into the architecture. I don't see large solar fields doing the trick.

Actually, solar thermal, is mostly off-the-shelf technology and the costs are comparable to gas-turbine electric generation systems. It is only suitable for southwest regional applications, but the fuel is free and when combined with either molten salt or hydrodynamic storage systems, can provide power 24 hours a day even if you have a few days in row of heavy cloud cover. As for PV systems, the only time the home systems get really pricey are when you are talking about off-grid systems that generate 100% of power retrofitted to older homes with low efficiency appliances. While such systems make sense in remote locations, they really won't be the primary use of PV solar for a long time (if ever). The use of PV panels that does make sense in a grid-access setting, is with panels that provide 25-60% of an efficiently designed and applianced home's electrical needs, feeding most of that into the grid, lowering the customer's net draw from the grid. This is best handled through adjustments in new-construction and major-remodel building codes, but this type of arrangement will also provide benefits even to those who just want to add a few panels to their older home, in order to reduce their monthly electric bill.

Again, however, solar in either form, is really not in a position to "replace all fossil fuels," but I really don't no many serious alternatives advocates who promote it as such. Solar is good for some regions. Wind is good for some regions. Tidal and wave power generation is good for some regions, Geothermal is available just about everywhere, but is only practical where the Earth is appropriately hot relatively close to the surface. In many areas, combinations of these systems should work. Add advanced design nuclear and hydroelectric and most importantly a networked intelligent national grid backbone and there is no reason we can't seamlessly and profitably transition away from using fossil fuels to generate electricity over the next 30 years.


Already know that the amounts of carbon in the atmosphere can be measured and a reasonable picture of the distant past versus our current production can be made about the CO2 concentrations themselves.

More than this, the carbon in fossil fuels has been deeply buried for a long time, it is depleted in the more radioactive isotopes present in carbon in the active carbon cycle of our planet. The shifting ratios of isotopic carbon in atmospheric carbon demonstrate that the carbon that is building up in our atmosphere is coming from the fossil fuels we are burning. These changing ratios line up well with the business records over the last two centuries of fossil fuel producers providing a means of cross-checking our data evaluations.

The problem lies in the fact that specifics about the impact from direct atmospheric analysis became available only in the last 40 years.

This is simply inaccurate. This issue has been a topic of scientific investigation since the Fourier discovered and began studying the atmospheric greenhouse effect in 1820. Tyndall isolated quantified the individual ghg impact of the atmospheric components responsible for this effect in 1859.

In 1896 Arrhenius completed a laborious numerical computation which suggested that cutting the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere by half could lower the temperature in Europe some 4-5°C (roughly 7-9°F) — that is, to an ice age level. But this idea could only answer the riddle of the ice ages if such large changes in atmospheric composition really were possible. For that question Arrhenius turned to a colleague, Arvid Högbom. It happened that Högbom had compiled estimates for how carbon dioxide cycles through natural geochemical processes, including emission from volcanoes, uptake by the oceans, and so forth. Along the way he had come up with a strange, almost incredible new idea.

It had occurred to Högbom to calculate the amounts of CO2 emitted by factories and other industrial sources. Surprisingly, he found that human activities were adding CO2 to the atmosphere at a rate roughly comparable to the natural geochemical processes that emitted or absorbed the gas. As another scientist would put it a decade later, we were "evaporating" our coal mines into the air. The added gas was not much compared with the volume of CO2 already in the atmosphere — the CO2 released from the burning of coal in the year 1896 would raise the level by scarcely a thousandth part. But the additions might matter if they continued long enough. (By recent calculations, the total amount of carbon laid up in coal and other fossil deposits that humanity can readily get at and burn is some ten times greater than the total amount in the atmosphere.) So the next CO2 change might not be a cooling decrease, but an increase. Arrhenius made a calculation for doubling the CO2 in the atmosphere, and estimated it would raise the Earth's temperature some 5-6°C (averaged over all zones of latitude).
(excerpted from American Institute of Physics hypertext book "The Discovery of Global Warming" - http://www.aip.org/history/climate/index.htm#contents

That can't establish much of a pattern when you're dealing with long term climate trends, nor especially when within these last 40 years there have been smaller fluctuations in the climatological patterns. If reducing the CO2 emissions is a priority go for it, my disagreements with AGW are essentially separate from my thoughts about the potential of alternative energy. But I think there are other components of climate change that are more immediate of a concern (and at ground level) than the CO2 levels in the atmosphere, if I'm to take the crisis of sea level rise, warming, etc as already having been "locked in" at face value.

Near term minimums are locked in, from past emissions, each day of emissions adds to the problem exponentially and pushes us toward a point where we overwhelm natural carbon sinks and begin cascading natural release of CO2 reservoirs that will match or exceed the human emissions. We may have already exceeded these thresholds which pushes the need to not only quickly reduce and eliminate our emissions, but to also actually drawing CO2 out of the atmosphere and sequestering it ourselves to avoid that potential.


Well the problem is fossil fuels are the defacto and most established, and it's remained that way despite solar power not exactly being a new concept. There's also ethanol, which has it's own challenges interfering with food demand/prices. Let's not also forget wind power which is restricted by geography and climate. They're receiving adoption sure, but how how long have some of these alternatives already been around, solar's been around for nearly 40 years.n I can't speak for the future improvements to the technology so maybe you'll be proven right but for now those technologies need enough efficiency and cost balance to allow for adoption to ramp up. And manufacturers of these products need to be able to stay afloat.

The reason fossil fuels are "defacto and established" is because they haven't had to cover the externalities associated the impact on society of their use. With the full cost of using these fuels included into their price coal becomes the most expensive way to generate electricity, with oil derived fuels pushing a close second. The total costs of uncovered externalities of using coal for electrical generation in the US costs, by some detailed estimates, more than $500B per year.

http://chge.med.harvard.edu/sites/default/files/epstein_full cost of coal.pdf

These are a hidden tax by the fossil fuels industries upon Americans each and every year as they earn record profits and receive state and federal tax breaks and subsidies.
 
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I don't think you understand how low solar panel cost is.
Also solar steam is being launched or in use in a number of areas including massively in Spain.
The headache with solar and wind is backup power - so you have to have gas turbines as a fall back.

The solar itself is so inexpensive it has destroyed business models. The barrier is fall back power and grid stability.

So local power is fine for solar but large scale problematic in grid economies.

Cautionary lesson - Spain has 54% of it's electricity from solar and massive problems..

http://www.forbes.com/sites/william...-in-sight-for-spains-escalating-solar-crisis/

Hi MacDoc

Spain is a perfect example of what happens when the governments try to save the planet

After the Global warming scare Spain promoted Solar panels to generate electricity

The solar industry was subsidized by tax dollars to the tune of $10.6 billion

Government now going broke subsidizing solar energy

Government now heavily taxing people who use solar panels to generate their own electricity

This is a socialists dream, tax everybody to death and then tax the sun

We end up exchanging big oil for big government
 
According to who? According to a bunch of Climate Models that don't work? :D

According to who? According to a bunch of internet conspiracy theorists and political special interests with motivation to attack the science they can't be bothered with understanding?
 
The reason fossil fuels are "defacto and established" is because they haven't had to cover the externalities associated the impact on society of their use. With the full cost of using these fuels included into their price coal becomes the most expensive way to generate electricity, with oil derived fuels pushing a close second. The total costs of uncovered externalities of using coal for electrical generation in the US costs, by some detailed estimates, more than $500B per year.

http://chge.med.harvard.edu/sites/de...0of coal.pdf

These are a hidden tax by the fossil fuels industries upon Americans each and every year as they earn record profits and receive state and federal tax breaks and subsidies.

This is exactly the point .....tax payers are subsidizing an industry making billions

IEA - Energy Subsidies - World Energy Outlook
www.worldenergyoutlook.org › Resources‎
Connect with us: ... The IEA's latest estimates indicate that fossil-fuel consumption subsidies worldwide amounted to $544 billion in 2012, slightly up from 2011 as moderately higher ... Subsidies to oil products represented over half of the total.


while the fossil industry does not take responsibility for the downstream impact of their technology.

Fossil Fuel Industries Benefit, You Pick Up the Tab
However, with all subsidies, somebody has to pick up the tab. Usually it’s taxpayers who provide the funds to implement the subsidy, but in this case it’s everyone who is adversely impacted by climate change, which is basically everybody in one form or another. For example, you pay higher food prices as climate change impacts agriculture (i.e. wheat prices rose as a direct consequence of the 2010 record Moscow drought, heat wave, and wildfires).

Read more at http://cleantechnica.com/2012/08/13/huge-overlooked-by-most-fossil-fuel-subsidy/#PsxiGpDrQlO7mYzU.99

Investors and insurers are looking at this and turning away from the worst offenders which are mainly coal companies.

Time to move on to carbon neutral....start with coal elimination.

•••

BTW AM....I'd not toss rocks about subsidies....Boeing et all all are heavily subsidized for aircraft development for the military etc.....so is Airbus in Europe.

Air Transportation - Page 331 - Google Books Result
books.google.ca/books?isbn=0787288810
Robert M. Kane - 2003 - ‎Transportation
The first successful helicopter in the United States was built by Igor Sikorsky in ... the Helicopter Air Carriers had to rely heavily upon government subsidy in the ...

and the fossil fuel industry still does...

End Big Polluter Handouts
www.leadnow.ca/end-big-polluter-handouts‎
Every year, Canada hands out $1.4 billion dollars to big fossil fuel companies, ... PowerShift 2012: http://www.wearepowershift.ca;
 
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A little over an inch every 8 years according to my half arse smartphone converter. So in 40 years, about 5 inches. Well now, we be dead then probably. Oh well.

It is an accelerating rate. Best current estimates put sea-level rise at .75-2 meters by 2100.
 
Sealevel is a distant but inevitable consequence with a lot of costs associated some of which are showing up now.

There is some worry about ocean intrusion under the western ice sheet in Antarctica - the ice goes down 2 KM below sealevel and if it floats off and breaks - all bets are off as far as the amount of sealevel increase.

Ice sheets are expected to shrink in size as the world warms, which in turn will raise sea level. The West Antarctic ice sheet is of particular concern, because it was probably much smaller at times during the past million years when temperatures were comparable to levels that might be reached or exceeded within the next few centuries. Much of the grounded ice in West Antarctica lies on a bed that deepens inland and extends well below sea level. Oceanic and atmospheric warming threaten to reduce or eliminate the floating ice shelves that buttress the ice sheet at present. Loss of the ice shelves would accelerate the flow of non-floating ice near the coast. Because of the slope of the sea bed, the consequent thinning could ultimately float much of the ice sheet's interior. In this scenario, global sea level would rise by more than three metres, at an unknown rate.
http://www.nature.com/ngeo/journal/v4/n8/abs/ngeo1194.html

Greenland may also have some surprises going on far below that will change the rate of loss to the ocean.

Also the US east coast sea level will rise faster than elsewhere.

Pay me now or pay me later....it's storm surges as we saw with Sandy that maginifies sea level changes.
 
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Don't think you are incorrect - but you did not restrict it to the Antarctic and Greenland which are big enough to affect salinity..
Salinity plays a role but I know of know specific prediction about expanded sea ice as an AGW consequence....certainly shifts in salinity have been and there is some speculation the North Atlantic as a whole is impacted.

For the OP total net mass changes would be more understandable as sea ice has so many variables attached.

This is a good article

http://www.pri.org/stories/2013-12-26/long-downward-slide-scientists-say-2013-was-year-arctic-ice

Cheers.
 
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