Bart Ehrman on the Historical Jesus

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To tell the truth, I'd be willing to bet a case of virtual Dom that the majority of the posters here would agree with your conclusion.

I'd agree that there's nothing that can be said with any degree of historical certainty about the HJ other than that he lived, preached in Judea in the first half of the first century sometime and got himself crucified. And I could probably be argued out of crucifixion if stoning is shown to be the preferred method of execution in those days.
 
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Dunno about that one, Brainache. I think Jesus Skeptic objections are being lumped in with MJ arguments pretty regularly here and on other threads.

For example, I find myself questioning whether Jesus was crucified. As I learn more about the arrest and the trial of Jesus, crucifixion seems less likely than stoning as a punishment.

Does that make me comparable to someone who thinks Noah's Fludde actually occurred?
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The term "Jesus Skeptic" is a new one on me. What's the story there? Is it skepticism of the Historical Method?

I think it more likely Jesus was charged with Sedition than Blasphemy. It was the Romans in charge of Capital Punishment in Jerusalem in the 30s, not the Priests. The Romans didn't give a stuff about internal Jewish Theological disputes, but they didn't tolerate Rebels.

Pilate is known from other sources to be brutal towards any kind of dissent, so I don't think crucifiction is unlikely at all.

In the case of James in the 60s, the Priests had greater Authority under Agrippa II and James was stirring up the population about "Jesus", so stoning was the punishment they used.

It's also possible that the "forgive them, for they know not what they do..." line was stolen from James as well, if Hegesippus is to be believed.
 
pakeha

For example, I find myself questioning whether Jesus was crucified. As I learn more about the arrest and the trial of Jesus, crucifixion seems less likely than stoning as a punishment.
Now, that's interesting. I have wondered why, if the Temple arrested him, then the Temple didn't just kill him. Stoning is nasty, humiliating and wouldn't require collaboration with the occupation authorities. It would also have spared us the blarney about how Jesus died with no broken bones (according to prophecy, therefore, God), although maybe all that is retrojection.

BTW, as I was responding to the next point below, it occurred to me that Paul can have his "crucifixion" and the Temple its stoning. All we have in Greek is that "stauros," which might be a cross, or may be just a stake in the ground. It is a real convenience feature in stoning, if the victim's mobility is restricted. A sturdy pole and a good rope could do wonders.

To tell the truth, I'd be willing to bet a case of virtual Dom that the majority of the posters here would agree with your conclusion.
Well, no, we had the epic What counts? thread, involving many of the same suspects, where the "more likely than not" persuasion typically wanted more than just a coincidence of names. "Jesus" was so common a name that there's no suspense that there likely was one (or more) preacher(s) of that name who died violently back then. If that was all the majority wanted in a Jesus, and the "mythers" concede that much, then we'd all be debating bigfoot instead.
 
... For example, I find myself questioning whether Jesus was crucified. As I learn more about the arrest and the trial of Jesus, crucifixion seems less likely than stoning as a punishment.

Does that make me comparable to someone who thinks Noah's Fludde actually occurred?
No, but the titulus indicated a charge of messianic rebellion. That was an offence under Roman laws, but not Jewish laws as Gamaliel's speech in Acts 5 clearly shows. It might even be from God. And it is pretty clear that Jesus was an observant Jew, obedient to Mosaic Law. His followers most certainly were too as their disputes with Paul indicate.

To be sure, we have Talmudic references to Jesus being stoned, but I think these are not historical, and that they merely reflect later Jewish v Christian hostility.
Sanhedrin 43a relates the trial and execution of Jesus and his five disciples. Here, Jesus is a sorcerer who has enticed other Jews to apostasy. A herald is sent to call for witnesses in his favour for forty days before his execution. No one comes forth and in the end he is stoned and hanged on the Eve of Passover. His five disciples, named Matai, Nekai, Netzer, Buni, and Todah are then tried. Word play is made on each of their names, and they are executed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_the_Talmud#As_a_sorcerer_with_disciples. That seems most implausible, and I can see no good reason to accept that Jesus was put to death by stoning.
 
Now, I will grant that the evidence for evolution is much stronger than the evidence for a historical Jesus. But the Creationist -- Mythicist analogy is not based on the strength of the evidence, it is how one side -- the fringe one -- defines "credible evidence" and then claims the other side -- the mainstream academic one -- is too biased to recognise that they aren't using "credible evidence".



In the meantime, I look on many mythicists (though not all) as little better as Creationists in how they define "credible evidence" and their views on the mainstream position as being hopelessly biased.


Very well, in that case - just tell us what this credible evidence is that persuades these academics that Jesus did indeed exist. What is that evidence that they rely on?

Please do not tell me it's the words of the bible.

Because that is most definitely not credible or reliable evidence in any measure at all. For all the same very carefully judged reasons that such evidence would be entirely inadmissible and unfit even to be put before a jury in any legal case.

There is far more similarity here between the HJ case and the creationists claims, than there is between any HJ-sceptics & any creationists. Eg, in the HJ case, it’s proponents cannot produce anything at all as supporting evidence except for the inadmissible and highly unreliable devotional writing in the bible (a book of anonymous hearsay stories filled with certain fiction), and similarly the creationists cannot produce any genuine evidence to cast doubt on the mountain of evolutionary evidence discovered by science. Those two sides are in a very similar position where neither has any credible evidence for what it claims.

Science on the other hand has vast and irrefutable evidence for what it claims about evolution. And as far as the so-called mythicists are concerned (most of whom are in fact only sceptics asking what genuine evidence is claimed for Jesus), they are under no obligation at all to provide evidence showing that any figure (such as Jesus) did not exist … you cannot produce evidence of things that don’t exist, and the burden of such evidence is most definitely upon the pro-HJ claimants anyway (not upon any sceptics who are merely doubting the case offered by biblical scholars).

But of course there is in fact a huge mass of evidence showing why we should be highly sceptical about the biblical stories of Jesus. Namely -


1. They are written entirely as anonymous hearsay, and only know from Christian devotional copies written centuries later (again from anonymous copyists)

2. It is far from contemporary in time with Jesus.

3. None of it was ever written by anyone who ever claimed to have known Jesus.

4. Iirc, not one single contemporary historian wrote a single word about Jesus during his supposed lifetime.

5. Many of the Jesus stories in the gospels can be shown to have been taken from much earlier writing in the OT. And in fact all the biblical authors make clear that they are taking their beliefs from the OT.

6. The central stories of Jesus in all the gospels are of numerous miracles that, whilst believed at the time as wondrous proof of Jesus, are on the contrary now known to be certain fiction.

7. All throughout history, and certainly in biblical times, countless different religions have all claimed miraculous religious figures who were certainly fictional.

8. Even today, and throughout all of Man’s history, religious people have sworn to witness all manner of miraculous events and all sorts of gods, angels, demons, and other religious figures. Not a single one of which was ever real.


So religious belief has a rather bad record when it comes to truth and accuracy on this sort of thing, to put it mildly.
 
I'd agree that there's nothing that can be said with any degree of historical certainty about the HJ other than that he lived, preached in Judea in the first half of the first century sometime and got himself crucified. And I could probably be argued out of crucifixion if stoning is shown to be the preferred method of execution in those days.

Regarding the hilited bit, I'd ask- for what charge, exactly.
Craig B posted up an interesting line of thought concerning the charge which I find most convincing, once Jesus is handed over to the Romans.

Yet there's my present niggle with the historicity arguments.
How plausible is it the Sanhedrin bothered with bringing in the Romans?
If I've understood Josephus correctly, the Sandedrin had that power, correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm here to learn and learn I do.
As of today I'm neither HJ nor MJ, really.

The MJ theories remind me of crop circle jive, to tell the truth.
The HJ arguments remind me powerfully of Creationist arguments.

It's why I ask questions yet never formulate so much as a hypothesis.
Something doesn't add up here, though that may be due to the simple truth almost nothing from the Judea of the 1st century survives.

Off to read more.
 
... there likely was one (or more) preacher(s) of that name who died violently back then. If that was all the majority wanted in a Jesus, and the "mythers" concede that much, then we'd all be debating bigfoot instead.
Not likely - pretty certain. We know of one. Jesus son of Ananias. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_ben_Ananias. We're looking for yet another one. In addition to the Jesus Barabbas who was in the same jail at the same time as "our" Jesus, charged with "insurrection". We have more "Jesi" than we need!
 
Very well, in that case - just tell us what this credible evidence is that persuades these academics that Jesus did indeed exist. What is that evidence that they rely on?

Please do not tell me it's the words of the bible.

You must have a lot of people on ignore if you missed all the times it's been presented already.
 
The term "Jesus Skeptic" is a new one on me. What's the story there? Is it skepticism of the Historical Method?

Sorry not to be clear, Brainache.
It's a term used in another forum to encompass those for whom the criterion of embarrassment just doesn't do the trick and yet find outright MJ too weird.

I find it useful to relieve this unpalatable "us vs them" approach I see in a lot of posts here.
It's not as though anyone here thinks the world was created 6,000 years ago, after all. We're all of us amateurs here, mulling over a subject that we all find fascinating and hoping to understand better.



I think it more likely Jesus was charged with Sedition than Blasphemy. It was the Romans in charge of Capital Punishment in Jerusalem in the 30s, not the Priests. The Romans didn't give a stuff about internal Jewish Theological disputes, but they didn't tolerate Rebels.

Pilate is known from other sources to be brutal towards any kind of dissent, so I don't think crucifiction is unlikely at all.

Ah, my bad. I thought the Sanhedrin could stone blasphemers to death in the 30's.
I can see Jesus' actions must've brought the pot to the boil during the Passover celebrations.
And whether of clay or flesh, Pilate is represented as a brutal type. We know he at least started an aqueduct project (funded with Temple monies, yes) and the resulting riots, so probably not someone sympathetic to the niceties of 'internal Jewish Theological disputes'.



In the case of James in the 60s, the Priests had greater Authority under Agrippa II and James was stirring up the population about "Jesus", so stoning was the punishment they used.

I'm going to have to reread that account, as my understanding it was just in-fighting for the High Priesthood seat.
After all, why wouldn't they just repeat the same tactic they'd used successfully in the 30's?
That is to say, use the Romans to do their dirty work?

In any case, just how plausible is it that the brother of a convicted felon would be allowed to openly preach a gospel based on the resurrection of said criminal during 30 years? And in the city of Jerusalem itself?



It's also possible that the "forgive them, for they know not what they do..." line was stolen from James as well, if Hegesippus is to be believed.

Just about every other element of the story can be said to have been lifted from other sources, including turning 'water into wine' at a banquet, so why not that as well.
 
You must have a lot of people on ignore if you missed all the times it's been presented already.

All I've seen presented is words from the bible tarted out in some fine new clothes, much like the Emperor's.
 
Well, Ehrman's work IS the OP of this thread, so perhaps it isn't completely irrelevant.



Well just to expand on that; amongst other reasons -

- Bart Ehrman is also by far the best known and most frequently cited "expert historian" on the subject of a historical Jesus. And he has a very recent book specifically on the evidence for Jesus, and directly criticising sceptics as unworthy of doubting the academic "consensus".

And in that very book, published only last year, Ehrman includes all other "expert historians" within his own conclusions on Jesus, saying quote "all other properly trained scholars on the planet" agree with him ... and his view, as he says repeatedly, is that the existence of Jesus is a matter of quote "certainty".

So when people in these threads say they rely on "expert historians" who they say all agree that Jesus did exist, they are whether they realise it or not, actually citing Bart Ehrman and all these "properly trained scholars on the planet" who Ehrman says agree with him. People like JD Crossan who says "the crucifixion of Jesus is just about the most certain fact in all of ancient history".


So just to be crystal clear on that - these are the people who are being talked about here as the “expert historians” who we must believe. They are Bart Ehrman, JD Crossan, John Huddleston, Elaine Pagels, Bruce Metzger, EP sanders and all the others who Ehrman includes when he says “all properly trained scholars on the planet” share his view on the existence of Jesus.

But note, as has been abundantly shown in these threads, those scholars named above are not “historians”. They are all bible-studies scholars of various types. That is - almost all their academic qualifications are heavily in the area of religious studies, most if not all had a younger background of devout Christian belief which led them to study and qualify in biblical studies and theology in the first place, and where almost all, if not literally all of those named individuals teach not in any mainstream university history department, but instead in specifically bible studies departments (many of them also have a history of teaching and studying in theological institutes).

And as a last point on Ehrman - the blogger Tim O’Neil who is the OP subject in another of these three current HJ threads (inc. this one), has relied constantly in his past to cite and quote Bart Ehrman as THE authority “historian” on this subject of Jesus historicity.

So those are the sort of reasons why the name of Bart Ehrman keeps cropping up in these threads, and the sort of reasons why these individuals are actually bible-studies practitioners, and not regular neutral university historians. And they are also the sort of reasons why words like “certainty” keep arising … i.e. because that’s exactly what people like Crossan and Ehrman do in fact claim, and it’s what Ehrman’s own very recent book implied as the view of “all properly trained scholars on the planet”.
 
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Now, that's interesting. I have wondered why, if the Temple arrested him, then the Temple didn't just kill him. Stoning is nasty, humiliating and wouldn't require collaboration with the occupation authorities. It would also have spared us the blarney about how Jesus died with no broken bones (according to prophecy, therefore, God), although maybe all that is retrojection.

BTW, as I was responding to the next point below, it occurred to me that Paul can have his "crucifixion" and the Temple its stoning. All we have in Greek is that "stauros," which might be a cross, or may be just a stake in the ground. It is a real convenience feature in stoning, if the victim's mobility is restricted. A sturdy pole and a good rope could do wonders.

Do we know the procedures for stoning back in the day?
I daresay we've all seen youtube vids modern-day folk being buried up to their necks in sand and being stoned to death for a variety of offenses, but other than illustrations from devotional texts and movies, I don't have much of an idea of how it was carried out.



Well, no, we had the epic What counts? thread, involving many of the same suspects, where the "more likely than not" persuasion typically wanted more than just a coincidence of names. "Jesus" was so common a name that there's no suspense that there likely was one (or more) preacher(s) of that name who died violently back then. If that was all the majority wanted in a Jesus, and the "mythers" concede that much, then we'd all be debating bigfoot instead.

No. Bigfoot, no.



Not likely - pretty certain. We know of one. Jesus son of Ananias. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_ben_Ananias. We're looking for yet another one. In addition to the Jesus Barabbas who was in the same jail at the same time as "our" Jesus, charged with "insurrection". We have more "Jesi" than we need!

I'd ask permission to sig the hilited bit, but I'm still in the honeymoon phase with the one I have.
 
I'm reminded of the "evolution is dead" claims frequently bandied about by creationists.

Looks as if tsig is right -- one questions the HJ and ridiculous comparisons are made to trvthers and creationists.

By the way, it would be a mistake to think that what you write on this topic is ignored by many, or actually most people. You may be having problem with a few posters, but that does not mean that you should apply such a broad brush that seems to slop over onto others in this thread that may be arguing similar ideas.
 
(weasel-word bolded)

What basis do you have for assuming that the Gospels are completely historically invalid? That supernatural deeds were attributed to this itinerant first-century preacher? Mythic and near-mythic deeds have been attributed to all of the people I have highlighted; and yet no one questions that they did, in fact, exist.

Of course Jesus didn't walk on water, feed 5,000 people with five loaves and two fish, raise a dead man to life, turn water into wine, or rise to heaven in clouds of smoke and flame. There is much in the NT that needs to be stripped away. But there is also information to be gleaned.

How do you know that the people that maximara spoke about in the post you quoted actually existed?
 
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